I do not agree that eternal torment is the worst conceivable punishment. I think that's our disconnect. I also agree that God allows us to have free will. Free will that is coerced through fear and intimidation isn't free though. Nor does fear of punishment have any part in a loving God according to scripture. I did not say you were just pulling it out of your hat.
Yet in the very verse you quoted it only says punishment, and you still added eternal pain and suffering to it?I do read my Bible quite often and would be happy to start a long distance Bible study with you if your interested.
I agree that it's non-nicene, in that the nicene creed has nothing to do with annhilationism, which was Tim's point. I agree with you however that because of
"non-Nicene and non-Trinitarian topics will take place in Unorthodox Theology. Those topics include (but are not limited to)
● Universalism
● Open Theism
● Full Preterism
● Trinitarianism
● Annihilationism"
We should probably ask the admins to move this thread to unorthodox theology.
Have you practiced Matthew 18:15-17? That's how my Bible tells me to practice polemics.
I think a major disconnect between the two sides is what the sunisout pointed out. Some believe the worst conceivable punishment is burning forever in a lake of fire. I believe knowing and being face to face with God and being summarily and forever rejected by Him, especially after knowing the enormity and beauty of His love and Grace, would be far worse than some third degree burns. Regardless of what the fate of the fallen are, or the imutable makeup of our souls, God will punish thouse that aren't covered by the blood of Christ (unless you're a Universalist). It's not heresy that the Holy Spirit has revealed scripture to each of us for God's will. It's not divissive when we accept that none of us are right, and none can know God's will. We each have a very muddied reflection of God we're relying on, because we're in the flesh. I accept that others don't believe as I do, I once believed that too, I can understand it. All this focus on fear, damnation and negativity though obviously brings out the nasty side of a lot of us, and frankly I think it's counter-productive to a non-denominational non-divisive Christian walk. Before this turns into too much of the usual, I'd like all non-denomination believers to pray prior to any response to this thread (whever it ends up). These threads can sure kill a Spirit of unity fast, so my love and respect go out to each and every poster on this thread, in advance.
I do not think eternal, conscious torment just means that you're being burned alive for eternity. Physical burning may be part of it, but I think the bulk of the torment is spiritual and psychological. Spiritual, because of your total seperation from God and His goodness, and psychological, because you are continually and persistantly aware of this, the hopeless weight of your sentence, your memories of rejecting God, etc. I cannot think of a worse punishment than this, can you? So, if we can now agree that this is the worst conceivable punishment, please tell me what flaw do you find in the logic of my previous post?
Free will is not the idea of doing something independent of God. Free will is simply the choice that Adam and Eve faced, which was to obey or disobey God. Was God coercing Adam and Eve when He told them that the day they ate of the fruit they would surely die? Was God coercing Israel when He told them that if they violated His commandments they would fall under a curse? He was not. God has ordained laws and violating His laws have very real consequences. It is because He is merciful that He warns us in advance what will happen if we defy Him.
The main point of this being that if God allows us to do evil by disobeying His will, He has a moral obligation to discourage that evil as much as He possibily can. Thus, He must mete out the maximum punishment possible for sin. Annhiliationism does not meet this obligation; as I explained in the other post, this would actually be a tender mercy to many people. It's a punishment with no force behind it, no real consequence for wrong doing; there are many people who hate God and would be perfectly happy with doing whatever they want here only to be destroyed later. Only an infinite punishment will truly be effective in discouraging sin.
You haven't made it clear what you believe happens in hell, so I do not mean this to say that this is what you believe. I am simply addressing the inadaquecy of common arguments against eternal torment.
I also don't understand why are speaking out against the fear of God. Do you think Jesus was kidding when He said this:
Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
What did He mean? What do you think Paul meant when He said this?:
Hebrews 10:31
It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
or this:
2 Corinthians 5:11
Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
We hear time and time again in scripture to fear God, that the fear of the Lord is the foundation of true wisdom. Solomon summed up ecclesiastes this way:
Ecclesiastes 12:13
Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole [duty] of man.
It seems clear from scripture that it is very unwise not to fear God. In the Christian sense, we can take this as being an awe and reverence, and a very healthy respect. For an unbeliever, they should absolutely fear the judgement of God. What sane person wouldn't?
I would also encourage everyone to prayerfully consider their words in this thread. The enemy uses this topic of hell to bitterly divide the body of Christ. Please be aware of the spiritual warfare we undergo in discussing this.
Great post!
