Is pre-trib rapture 'theory' anti-Semitic?

[spiritualwarrior77]

What do others (particularly Messianics) think of the pre-trib rapture 'theory'? (I say 'theory', because there is no scriptural basis for it).

The tribulation period is going to be a difficult time for everyone, not least, the Jewish people and Israel. Isn't the notion that believers will be whisked away before this, somewhat repugnant? Isn't the notion that we will support Israel now (while things are relatively good), but when it starts to get really tough, bail out.
Is this thinly veiled anti-Semitism?

To me, the tribulation will be a time of great opportunity for helping others both physically and spiritually. Why are so many believers so cowardly and want to disappear when the doo-doo hits the fan?

If this is what God wanted for us, then so be it, but (in my studies) this is not what he wants for us. We are to go through the tribulation, trust in God and get to helping others and sharing the good news of Y'shua.
What do others think?

(A great book on the history of the pre-trib 'theory', who's behind it and what the Scripture says, you can't go past "The Rapture Plot" by Dave MacPherson).
For a briefer article by Mr. MacPherson which sums it up beautifully see :
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/wp-content/uploads/Rapture-Pre-trib-vs.-Post-trib.pdf

 

[spiritualwarrior77]

Michael L. Brown, author, scholar, radio host and Jewish believer in Y'shua and Ron Cantor, Messianic Jew living in Israel, discuss this very subject. According to Mr. Cantor, most Messianic Jews in Israel hold to the post-trib position. Can anyone confirm this?

The 5 minute discussion on this subject starts at the 30:00 minute mark (worth a listen)

Interview with Ron Cantor on Counter-Missionary Rabbis, Israel and the Palestinians, and More : Line of Fire

 

[yedida]

I don't believe in a "secret rapture" either. I believe that during that "silent" moment is when the believers will be gathered together to be protected from the wrath that is to follow that silence. But we are here on earth, near Jerusalem, but protected. Just my opinion.....

 

[spiritualwarrior77]

I don't believe in a "secret rapture" either. I believe that during that "silent" moment is when the believers will be gathered together to be protected from the wrath that is to follow that silence. But we are here on earth, near Jerusalem, but protected. Just my opinion.....

I tend toward a pre-wrath 'taking up' myself too.
Thanks for your opinion BTW

 

[DennisTate]

What do others (particularly Messianics) think of the pre-trib rapture 'theory'? (I say 'theory', because there is no scriptural basis for it).

The tribulation period is going to be a difficult time for everyone, not least, the Jewish people and Israel. Isn't the notion that believers will be whisked away before this, somewhat repugnant? Isn't the notion that we will support Israel now (while things are relatively good), but when it starts to get really tough, bail out.
Is this thinly veiled anti-Semitism?

To me, the tribulation will be a time of great opportunity for helping others both physically and spiritually. Why are so many believers so cowardly and want to disappear when the doo-doo hits the fan?

If this is what God wanted for us, then so be it, but (in my studies) this is not what he wants for us. We are to go through the tribulation, trust in God and get to helping others and sharing the good news of Y'shua.
What do others think?

(A great book on the history of the pre-trib 'theory', who's behind it and what the Scripture says, you can't go past "The Rapture Plot" by Dave MacPherson).
For a briefer article by Mr. MacPherson which sums it up beautifully see :
http://www.contendingfortruth.com/wp-content/uploads/Rapture-Pre-trib-vs.-Post-trib.pdf

I admit that I may be wrong but in my opinion a Jewish scholar who prays fervently for the coming of the era of Moshiach would be just as likely to be taken up in the rapture, if the idea is valid, as a Christian who has extensively studied this theory, perhaps almost obsessively!

I personally did not really understand the theory until I read a NDE account, (Dr. Richard Eby), that I thought did a truly good job of making sense out of it!

 

[DennisTate]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7673933/

Christian Rapture and fulfillment of Yom Kippur event?!?!


Dr. Richard Eby

He paused as though the joy of that thought had overwhelmed him for the moment.

"My Father assures me that the time is yet a little while, but very little. Soon he will call those already in paradise to surround me as we descend from this third heaven to the first heaven around the Earth. The souls of all my saints will be instantly clothed in their new resurrection bodies, as will the living saints on Earth who rise to us in the glory cloud! At the sounding trumpet they all receive new bodies and rise to meet us in the air. We return as my body to my throne room with the Father. Now do you understand why I called this place a temporary abiding place? Do you grasp what it will mean to be one with me and the Father in your incorruptible bodies? My book states that I assumed mankind's sin so you "might be made the righteousness of God' in me!"

I can clearly recall how Jesus' voice paused at this moment. He was savoring an anticipation too intense and private to be revealed. Was he pre-living that moment at which he would enjoy the victory which his Father would give him as the eternal reward for his own long-suffering? His own sting of death would be swallowed up, and he would be the omniscient Head of a completed and compliant body for whom he had shed his blood on a terrible cross. He would reign as KING of the Jews after these days of grace. Then his thoughts returned to me.

"My son, when that time has come, my Father will call to me. The applause of the heavenly hosts will be deafening; they too have been awaiting that day, ever since they announced my birth to the shepherds at Bethlehem so long ago. Scoffers will gaze with fear and wonder as my angelic hosts watch me fulfill my promise to my earthly body of believers at my soon return to Earth.

"My book records the many signs which will precede my coming for my family. I tried to explain those events to my disciples, very carefully. I promised them that I was leaving my Holy Spirit as a comforter to instruct them as they studied my word, and to tell them of the things to come. I want my children to be informed about our plans in advance. I want them to be filled with my joy. After all, they are mine: I created them and bought them back from satanic slavery. I told them that I would come for them so that we could be together forever. My Father wants them all to believe Me."

 

[DennisTate]

The souls of all my saints will be instantly clothed in their new resurrection bodies, as will the living saints on Earth who rise to us in the glory cloud!

(Dr. Richard Eby)


I know some astonishingly gifted Orthodox and Chassidic Jewish writers who have given me the impression that they are among the list of the saints....just as all the major and minor prophets as well as the patriarchs are listed among the saints. Yes, just like all of us Messianics they are facing difficult questions...but basically I see the love of God emerging out of them.....it is impossible to worship G-d with the kind of enthusiasm that Rabbi Nachman of Breslov had without coming into a relationship with the Messiah....and one does not need to know that Yehoshua/Jesus was the Messiah to have a relationship with God!



John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

 

[Temptinfates]

I do not think there is a "pre-trib rapture". I think it is a fable to fool many and to give people a false hope that they will be taken out of the world and not have to endure hardsip in their lives.
But, let's just say it were real for some thought.
If "the rapture" were to occur, what would it matter? Could you stop it? Could you get ready for it since you don't know when it happens? But, if it happened, you would be brought to Adonai in your present state. I call this my walk. If I am faithful, then so what, I am with Adonai where I want to be.
If it did not occur, then I am still walking my walk. The whole rapture theory detracts from people concentrating on their walk and doing all they can to please Adonai.
The theory goes that only believers will go up in a rapture. That would leave only unbelieving Gentiles and Jews left on the Earth. This suppose that Adonai would leave only unbelievers for a period of years. I cannot see Adonai leaving mankind without a people to testify of himself and to help those that do come to believe. The sadness is that people would rather be whisked off the earth than to be on earth and suffer if need be for his righteous cause. Since the only ones left would be unbelieving, wicked Gentiles and the Jews, I guess that would leave the hard, dirty work for the Jews in that scenario. Hmmf. people want to be grafted in--and then run and hide when the real fight is going down. I think I will go with option "A" and stand with Adonai against the wickedness and evil and be known for that than being someone that wanted to escape the fight. Escapism would not give Adonai Glory. There is a fight coming, and the People of Adonai are going to be required to stand up for him.
Temptinfates

 

[yedida]

I do not think there is a "pre-trib rapture". I think it is a fable to fool many and to give people a false hope that they will be taken out of the world and not have to endure hardsip in their lives.
But, let's just say it were real for some thought.
If "the rapture" were to occur, what would it matter? Could you stop it? Could you get ready for it since you don't know when it happens? But, if it happened, you would be brought to Adonai in your present state. I call this my walk. If I am faithful, then so what, I am with Adonai where I want to be.
If it did not occur, then I am still walking my walk. The whole rapture theory detracts from people concentrating on their walk and doing all they can to please Adonai.
The theory goes that only believers will go up in a rapture. That would leave only unbelieving Gentiles and Jews left on the Earth. This suppose that Adonai would leave only unbelievers for a period of years. I cannot see Adonai leaving mankind without a people to testify of himself and to help those that do come to believe. The sadness is that people would rather be whisked off the earth than to be on earth and suffer if need be for his righteous cause. Since the only ones left would be unbelieving, wicked Gentiles and the Jews, I guess that would leave the hard, dirty work for the Jews in that scenario. Hmmf. people want to be grafted in--and then run and hide when the real fight is going down. I think I will go with option "A" and stand with Adonai against the wickedness and evil and be known for that than being someone that wanted to escape the fight. Escapism would not give Adonai Glory. There is a fight coming, and the People of Adonai are going to be required to stand up for him.
Temptinfates

That's what I say! What's makes the "rapture generation" so all-fired special that they get to escape it all? The first believers sure didn't escape (or could that have been one of HaShem's judgements as He's put on the Jews so many times (I say this sarcastically, for those who don't know me)).
But what's to come anyway, I don't see as coming from HaShem, but rather as hasatan's last ditch effort. When it does turn to HaShem's wrath, I do believe in a gathering together for protection, but no pie-in-the-sky stuff.
And meanwhile, one of the main reasons I don't do major in-depth studies of the future times is, like you said, if we get today squared away, tomorrow will take care of itself - we just need to be about our Father's business.

 

[visionary]

I think about what Yeshua prayed for His disciples.. J

ohn 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

It is almost as if Yeshua looked down the pages of history and say the rapture being promoted and prayed that God would not answer their prayer for an easy bug out.

 

[DennisTate]

I think about what Yeshua prayed for His disciples.. John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

It is almost as if Yeshua looked down the pages of history and say the rapture being promoted and prayed that God would not answer their prayer for an easy bug out.

I LOVE this theory Visionary!!!!!!

Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua wants a warrior bride...not a girl who is obsessed with going on vacations!!!!!

 

[macher]

I LOVE this theory Visionary!!!!!!

Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua wants a warrior bride...not a girl who is obsessed with going on vacations!!!!!

Yes the 144,000 Jews preaching the Gospel.

 

[DennisTate]

Yes the 144,000 Jews preaching the Gospel.

Yes, as the scales are removed from all eyes....absolutely everybody will be humbled and repentant for our role in the injustices of history. We are all guilty....to some degree....all of the various groups carry their share of guilt....once we will admit to our share of the guilt....the world can be transformed with astonishing rapidity!


Isaiah 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

Dr. George Ritchie was shown that we humans have a terrible tendency to use our religious or political beliefs as something to hit somebody else in the head with!!!!

This is definitely NOT what Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua had in mind when he founded his church!!!

.near-death.com/ritchie.html

Jesus takes him to a new dimension away from Earth and shows him a kind of "receiving station" where spirits would arrive in a deep hypnotic sleep because of their beliefs. These are spirits who believe they must sleep after death until Jesus returns.

Jesus shows him a dimension where angry spirits are locked in hand-to-hand combat, trying in vain to hurt each other. He hears verbal abuse going on. He observes some trying in vain to get sexual gratification from each other. He also sees spirits arguing over some religious or political point and trying to kill the ones who did not agree with them. Here, he realizes he is seeing hell. These are spirits who are locked into some earthly desire that went beyond the physical and which cannot be satisfied in the spirit.

 

[yedida]

But what of the 144,000 cardinals all congregated in Rome at the moment? hehehe.....

 

[visionary]

But what of the 144,000 cardinals all congregated in Rome at the moment? hehehe.....

wait until they move their headquarter to the new city of Jerusalem, City of Peace... as part of the New Israel... Does that make them the Jews without guile??

 

[yedida]

wait until they move their headquarter to the new city of Jerusalem, City of Peace... as part of the New Israel... Does that make them the Jews without guile??

About as much as it makes me a beautiful young rich princess!!!

 

[DennisTate]

wait until they move their headquarter to the new city of Jerusalem, City of Peace... as part of the New Israel... Does that make them the Jews without guile??

If the Roman Catholic Church were to decide to adopt the first century church practice of sending one major leader to the Jewish people (Cephas/Peter) and another major leader to the Gentiles (Paul) then the unusual prophecies regarding the next Pope would seem to have been fulfilled?????!!!!


Prophecy of the Popes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Petrus Romanus

In recent times, some interpreters of prophetic literature have drawn attention to the prophecies due to their imminent conclusion; if the list of descriptions is matched on a one-to-one basis to the list of historic popes since the prophecies' publication, Benedict XVI (2005-2013) would correspond to the second to last of the papal descriptions, Gloria olivae (the glory of the olive).[10] The last prophecy predicts the Apocalypse. The longest and final motto reads:
In persecutione extrema S.R.E. sedebit.

Petrus Romanus, qui pascet oves in multis tribulationibus, quibus transactis civitas septicollis diruetur, & judex tremedus judicabit populum suum. Finis.
This may be translated into English as:

In the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church, there will sit [i.e., as bishop].

Peter the Roman, who will pasture his sheep in many tribulations, and when these things are finished, the city of seven hills [i.e. Rome] will be destroyed, and the dreadful judge will judge his people. The End.[11]

.....[1]

.....

The Prophecies in art, literature, and culture

[edit]Novels
Pope Patrick[122] is a novel about the then Pope John Paul II's supposed successor, the fictional Pope Patrick I. The novel assumes that 'Petrus Romanus', the last Pope in St Malachy's list, is to be regarded as some kind of unreal supernatural being, and that consequently Pope Patrick will be the last real Pope.

Zechariah 12:8

In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

Jeremiah 30:9 "But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them."

On that note...did the God of Abraham raise up Elijah as promised???

Matthew 11:11 "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
....

Matthew 17:10 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

 

[DennisTate]

Isaiah 37:36 ¶ "Then the angel of the LORD went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they [were] all dead corpses."

A David with this kind of ability ruling over the earth would soon be able to convince the nations to beat their swords into plowshares??!!

 

[Shulamite]

I do not think there is a "pre-trib rapture". I think it is a fable to fool many and to give people a false hope that they will be taken out of the world and not have to endure hardsip in their lives.
But, let's just say it were real for some thought.
If "the rapture" were to occur, what would it matter? Could you stop it? Could you get ready for it since you don't know when it happens? But, if it happened, you would be brought to Adonai in your present state. I call this my walk. If I am faithful, then so what, I am with Adonai where I want to be.
If it did not occur, then I am still walking my walk. The whole rapture theory detracts from people concentrating on their walk and doing all they can to please Adonai.
The theory goes that only believers will go up in a rapture. That would leave only unbelieving Gentiles and Jews left on the Earth. This suppose that Adonai would leave only unbelievers for a period of years. I cannot see Adonai leaving mankind without a people to testify of himself and to help those that do come to believe. The sadness is that people would rather be whisked off the earth than to be on earth and suffer if need be for his righteous cause. Since the only ones left would be unbelieving, wicked Gentiles and the Jews, I guess that would leave the hard, dirty work for the Jews in that scenario. Hmmf. people want to be grafted in--and then run and hide when the real fight is going down. I think I will go with option "A" and stand with Adonai against the wickedness and evil and be known for that than being someone that wanted to escape the fight. Escapism would not give Adonai Glory. There is a fight coming, and the People of Adonai are going to be required to stand up for him.
Temptinfates

Great post. I have to agree. I was raised by heart-felt believers that the rapture was true, however, Yeshua began to take me through the scriptures and showed me verses that contradicted the rapture. I feel that He will carry His bride through that time and being His witness is my joy! Whether in life or death, things present or things to come, powers and principalities, angels or thrones, Nothing can separate us from Him! He will supply what we need to stand.

 

[DennisTate]

About as much as it makes me a beautiful young rich princess!!!

Yedida....imagine for a moment that you are seated on the throne of God....and an emergency comes up......would you prefer to inspire a young healthy man to exhibit supernatural physical strength or would you love to use an elderly woman instead???

There are amazing cases of older women lifting a car or other heavy object off a son or grandson who got themselves into trouble perhaps while working on their car!!!


Woman Lifts Car Off Dad Saving His Life - YouTube
Woman Lifts Car Off Dad Saving His Life