is new wine fermented?

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At the same time, I am in my freedom to dine with friends, and enjoy a drink, without fearing that I may be seen sipping. Jesus was indeed a stumbling block, a rock of offense. It is also to be noted, that Paul allowed his church, to dine in pagan temples, and eat unclean idol food, and though it could stumble a new convert, the church was allowed to eat there. So again, good to be prudent, especially if there are problems with alcohol, and the stumbling weaker person, but the whole church can't be controlled because of one who stumbles to easily, better to educate that young man or woman. SS.
 
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Alithis

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At the same time, I am in my freedom to dine with friends, and enjoy a drink, without fearing that I may be seen sipping. Jesus was indeed a stumbling block, a rock of offense. It is also to be noted, that Paul allowed his church, to dine in pagan temples, and eat unclean idol food, and though it could stumble a new convert, the church was allowed to eat there. So again, good to be prudent, especially if there are problems with alcohol, and the stumbling weaker person, but the whole church can't be controlled because of one who stumbles to easily, better to educate that young man or woman. SS.

But in godly love the whole church does lay down its own life for the good of all ..
or it is supposed to..
i mean really..what loss is it to abstain for the good of another..and what is gained by clinging to my right to enjoy..(indulge self)..really .what eternal value does it have? If i gain here i lose it in heaven..is i save my earthly life i lose my heavenly life..
so in light of the words of the lord Jesus ..it is best to seek my brothers edification before my own desire .
Paul agreed as he declared it better to go without then to offend..
love must dictate everything we do.and love does not seek its own..
 
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But in godly love the whole church does lay down its own life for the good of all ..
or it is supposed to..
i mean really..what loss is it to abstain for the good of another..and what is gainef by clinging to my right to enjoy..(endulge self)..really .what eternal value does it have? If i gain here i lose it in heaven..is i save my earthly life i lose my heavenly life..
so in light of the words of the lord Jesus ..it is best to seek my brothers edification before my own desire .
Paul agreed as he declared it better to go without then to offend..
love must dictate everything we do.and love does not seek its own..

How far does it go? What if the weak person in a church, asks everyone if they have a drink at home with dinner, and alot say they do, answering his question. Now what? Do they all have to not have a drink at home, all because of one person? One person can control everyone, what if he stumbles over gambling, or certain movies, boxing, there are a host of things one could stumble over, by all rights, he could control a whole church, simply by saying he stumbles over everything. Do you not see my point? SS.
 
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Source, is the wine you partake of NEW, as the topic of this thread?
Instead of just, 'I'm gonna do what I wanna do.

I guess I just can't please everyone, perhaps you can. SS.

Matthew 11;18
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”
 
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Alithis

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How far does it go? What if the weak person in a church, asks everyone if they have a drink at home with dinner, and alot say they do, answering his question. Now what? Do they all have to not have a drink at home, all because of one person? One person can control everyone, what if he stumbles over gambling, or certain movies, boxing, there are a host of things one could stumble over, by all rights, he could control a whole church, simply by saying he stumbles over everything. Do you not see my point? SS.

of course i see your point .. :)

im just saying we should never try to protect our own rights to liberty ..we should esteem the other as more important then self .
in the extreme sense . how far does it go ..?

to the cross ..
 
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Sabertooth

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care more about not offending your brother or sister .. then your right to drink alcohol.

it is the way of the world to say "its my right"..it is the way of the lord to say .... if it offends you my beloved brother and sister ..then i shall not do it .

love does not seek its own
If applied to alcohol, it wouldn't mean that we couldn't drink, at all. It just means that we shouldn't drink around them.

(BTW, there was a tribe in the OT that made a vow of sobriety. It isn't required, but it is allowed.)
 
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Dave-W

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How in the world do you get getting drunk out of what I said? As for Purim, it is wine about five cups if I remember right during a meal spread out over time.

? ? ? ? ? ? ?

There are no "cups" with Purim and no meal. You are thinking of Passover which occurs about 4 weeks after Purim.

Here is an article on the issue of drinking at Purim:

When it comes to drinking on Purim, the Talmud clearly understood what the scroll of Esther (the Megillah) was all about. In practically every chapter of the Megillah, someone is imbibing heavily at a drinking party. And the scroll concludes with Mordecai's instruction to the entire Jewish people to celebrate these days as "yemei mishteh v'simchah, days of drinking and rejoicing" (Esther 9:22).

An ambiguous law like that, however, would not be left unqualified by the rabbis. On Passover, precise amounts are defined so that one may fulfill the obligations of eating matzah and drinking the four cups of wine. So one might expect that the rabbis would define "days of drinking" in terms of the volume of wine or the number of hours one would be obligated to drink.

The rabbis of the Talmud paid close attention to the nature of the obligation. On Passover, the four cups of wine are for joy and for sanctification, but they also have symbolic associations with the expressions that God used for Israel's redemption. On Purim, however, the wine (or liquor) is not symbolic. It is functional. Consequently, the nature of the obligation is not defined by volume, but rather, by the effect upon the drinker.

How Drunk Is Drunk?

"Rava said: It is one's duty levasumei, to make oneself fragrant [with wine] on Purim until one cannot tell the difference between 'arur Haman' (cursed be Haman) and 'barukh Mordekhai' (blessed be Mordecai)" (Babylonian Talmud, Megillah 7b).

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Jewish_Holidays/Purim/At_Home/Meal/Drinking_on_Purim.shtml
 
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Dave-W

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Do all over the age of 13 get all five 8ounce cups? Girls and boys both?
How much time is this spread out over in one meal?

The rabbis grudgingly allowed non-alcoholic grape juice for use in the Seder Passover meal when preservatives and refrigeration made that technologically possible. That is the traditional practice now for youth and those with drinking problems to use grape juice.

In Messianic circles, grape juice is also used for youth and anyone who would rather have juice. We also serve both at communion.

As to the time for the seder, it varies a lot. The liturgy has grown a LOT over the last 2 millenia and full on orthodox seders can often take more than 4 hours. Most conservative and Messianic seders take about 2 to 3 hours, including the full meal in the middle. But I have acces to one that takes only a half hour. (and a joke one that takes 2 minutes)

The one I published comes in at about 2 or 2 1/2 hours.

Messianic Passover Haggadah - Kindle edition by David Waggoner. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.
 
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Dave-W

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in my small congregation i know of two who have had their past lives (and families) ravaged by alcoholism and it would be greatly remiss to flaunt my own liberty in their face

I agree. And if it really WAS the Lord that told you to abstain from alcohol - that is fine. Just remember He has not told that to everyone, or even most people.
 
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of course i see your point .. :)

im just saying we should never try to protect our own rights to liberty ..we should esteem the other as more important then self .
in the extreme sense . how far does it go ..?

to the cross ..

However, there is a balance to be found, the weak are not to judge the strong either. My point was that the weak can be a bit controlling, if left unbridled. SS.


Romans 14:3
Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.
 
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I'm no winemaker, but perhaps the issue may be, how new is new? If 2 days later fermentation has begun, if it has at that point, then I suppose technically it has alcohol in it at that point, or whatever point fermentation has begun. Maybe not as much as old wine, but still, it could get a person drunk. As mentioned, there does seem to be the ability to get drunk from new wine, as seen in Acts chapter 2.
SS.
 
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I HATE alcohol of all types -- beer, wine, etc. When we observe the festivals, I used to feel bad that I hate booze so much that I would drink only juice when the Bible says to drink wine. But reality is that since @ 1993, I have an illness what would have killed me if I'd been a drinker of alcoholic beverages. I stopped apologizing to G-d for not using wine at the Festival: He made me this way to preserve my life, which is now two years beyond the life sentence (life-expectancy) the doctors gave me.

But when it comes to what the Bible says, nowhere does it say that drinking wine is a sin; as has already been written, it's the getting drunk that is the sin.
 
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Norah63

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My my, so many that see the moving of the Holy Spirit in acts 2 as the crowd saw it.
And not as Peter said.
Whatever, if the young and so called weak have the new wine, then it will be the older more mature
to partake of old wine.
May there be peace in all the churches.

Purim is coming.....
 
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Dave-W

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I wonder how many Christians view the wine/juice decision as something that could endanger their salvation?

The congregation I attended as a child up until high school taught that even SMELLING alcohol immediatly revoked your salvation,

I heard endless sermons condemning Scope, Listerene, Vanilla Extract, etc. Any household product that contained alcohol revoked your salvation.
 
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