Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[stevevw]

I don't think the decline of religion, which I agree has being going on for quite some time (since the Enlightenment), has had the effect suggested in the OP. To me it seems to be a sensible, rational development.

The Englightenment was not reallt an anti religious movement though like anything people used this to denounce religion and God. But it was about a new age of discovery and many still were Christians believing that science would reveal God.

But basically most Western nations have been around 90% Christian up until around mid 20th century. Then after the revolutions of the 60's things started to really speed up in the decline until today we are passing below 50% Christianity. In fact real figures have it even lower in nations like Australia and England around 43%. The US is around 60% which is pretty low for a nation who was virtually 100% Christian when founded.

But I also think a lot of Christians are Sunday Christians and more worldly rather than sacrifice themselves for God. Want the best of both world. Which is the false prophets spoken about in the bible. But the point is while overall Christianity has declined its the removal of it from civil societywhich is now being replaced by other ideologies.

It may seem sensible and rational on the surface because people only see all the bad stuff. But theres a lot of good religion does and this has been proven in research. Without the help of Churches society would fall apart. They do a lot of mopping up of the horrible stuff that happens when no one wants to know.

But its not so much the practical stuff but the ideological beliefs that come into the void when God is rejected. As human societies it is natural to have some moral basis and meaning to life. God acted as the uniting belief which was incoruptible in Christ. But as with in the past with idol worship when we lose that united belief we look to human made gods.

We have seen this with the growth of materialism, and all sorts of ideologies 'Woke' being the latest but money, pleasure you name it its being exploited. You have to fill the void left, you have to replace God with something. No human or society can be devoid of belief. The greatest trick Satan did was to convince people they could be like gods.

 

[stevevw]

There is a strange myth, which people keep telling about how Rome fell. The funny thing about that myth is that if anyone has a working knowledge of Late Antiquity, and some basic interest in history generally--is that it's totally nonsense.

I mention this, because the whole "fall of empires" thing often comes down to this old myth about how Rome fell. But if we look at things historically, that's not really the pattern we see.

There probably are some common social factors we could find through that analysis--but I suspect it's not what people usually envision.

And that applies to Sodom as well, at least if one pays attention to it biblically, rather than impose what they think they know about Sodom. What people think the Bible says about Sodom, and what the Bible actually says about Sodom is actually quite stark in contrast. I've actually been mocked a few times for just quoting the Bible on this subject.

A society whose principles and values are not aligned with empathy, compassion, nor concerned with human life and flourishing is, of course, a deeply sick society. And, looking at the Bible--big picture--such is the sickness of the human condition.

So more importantly, I'd think, is how do we answer bigger questions, like, what is the goal of human society? What is its purpose, what is--let's bring a fancy Greek word into the conversation--the intended telos of human society? The end goal, the whole point, what is the destination toward which human society should be oriented.

Because depending on how we answer that, and talking about the means of getting it or hindering it, might make talk of Sodom and Gomorrah more relevant.

Ezekiel 16:49-50.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes that is the fundemental question behind how we should order society and one people keep debating or even arguing about. But I think at the most fundemental this comes down to Gods order or humans order and that is the battle we are having now in society because we did follow Gods order up until recently for the most part.

Now that this is being taken out at least as far as the basis for secular society as there was not that much seperation in the recent past. But now that we are seeing a more complete seperation with the bible, Christian traditions, religion out of State schools, to the point of not being allowed to practice Christianity in certain situations. This is brought a new order.

We are seeing this with ideologies like Woke or PC as it was which only started coming in post 2000. It really started in the 80,s and 90's in academia. But it is a concerted effort to socially engineer society and its basis is moral. Its the new morality. But alone with it comes a complete detachment from Gods order.

Thats why we also see the breakdown of marriage and the family as well as man and women itself and many of the long held Christian beliefs and life principles such as marriage and sex being sacred and people being made in Gods image. Now identity is the new measure of morality and reality. Hense we are seeing a complete detachment from reality where people especially young people are believing strange things like the 100 + identities and growing.

At the same time there's this underbelly thats growing with the internet, sex trafficking, pedophelia and people seeking mind altering experiences and experimenting. Feelings are now god and Hedonism is the new morals. People want to feel good, comfortable in life the opposite of what Christ represented which was to sacrifice ourselves for the greater meaning beyond this world.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes that is the fundemental question behind how we should order society and one people keep debating or even arguing about. But I think at the most fundemental this comes down to Gods order or humans order and that is the battle we are having now in society because we did follow Gods order up until recently for the most part.

We did? When, where, and how?

Now that this is being taken out at least as far as the basis for secular society as there was not that much seperation in the recent past. But now that we are seeing a more complete seperation with the bible, Christian traditions, religion out of State schools, to the point of not being allowed to practice Christianity in certain situations. This is brought a new order.

We are seeing this with ideologies like Woke or PC as it was which only started coming in post 2000. It really started in the 80,s and 90's in academia. But it is a concerted effort to socially engineer society and its basis is moral. Its the new morality. But alone with it comes a complete detachment from Gods order.

Thats why we also see the breakdown of marriage and the family as well as man and women itself and many of the long held Christian beliefs and life principles such as marriage and sex being sacred and people being made in Gods image. Now identity is the new measure of morality and reality. Hense we are seeing a complete detachment from reality where people especially young people are believing strange things like the 100 + identities and growing.

At the same time there's this underbelly thats growing with the internet, sex trafficking, pedophelia and people seeking mind altering experiences and experimenting. Feelings are now god and Hedonism is the new morals. People want to feel good, comfortable in life the opposite of what Christ represented which was to sacrifice ourselves for the greater meaning beyond this world.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Roderick Spode]

I don't think its just about danger. I would imagine that some in S&G were not about killing or mugging but about taking advantage. About luring people into their lifestyle of sex and partying to excesses and bringing everyone down to their level. All the sins that go with defying God.

If you look at some cities they almost look like hell on earth with people drugged out and overdosing, living in carboard cities on the streets with poverty and deprivation all around in the back streets while the elite celebrate their lifestyles. They may paint a pretty picture but under the surface we are seeing much division and a breakdown of morals.

I think it was Camelia Paglia who mentions that one sign of a civilisation headed towards collaspe is a breakdown in sexual morality where people become more androgynous. Where all reality breakdown and the long held truths that held societies together are abandoned like with Gods order of sex as between a male and female or we are all made in GOds image. Now we measure this truth by our identity group which divides people against each other.

These are all little signs of a society breaking down and it doesn't have to be measured in crime stats. There is massive mental illness and family breakdown unlike decades before. The fact is healthy and strong societies are built on strong and healthy families. But even the family today is seen as an enermy of the State and its agents ideologues such as the elits and corporations and radicals who push this rubbish.

What are the actual signs of S&G. Its not really the danger but actually the celebration of sin. That is exactly what we are seeing. At least in the past we had some moral compass and respect for God. But now as the balance is tipping toward more people rejecting God than believing in Him things have changed. The void is being filled with human made gods.

In some ways the internet is part of that. Even though it can be very useful inevitably it becomes a tool to control and promote the post modernist ideology of not Truths or Facts with false facts and narratives that poison peoples minds. Look how social media and the media in general can actually influence elections and can destroy peoples lives with cancel culture.

Inevitaably its the people with the loudest and most destructive ideologies that get the attention and take over the narrative and unfortunately they use a Trojan Horse of nobel causes to push their ideology and many fall fall it due to their kind nature. Now its mainstream thinking and dictates our lives.

I agree with you. It's not just about danger. The reason I pointed that out was because S&G at the time of their destruction, was at a particular level of sin where God saw fit to destroy them. And the number of people counted as righteous were few, and were able to evacuate in time to avoid the cities' destruction.

I have no doubt that we're getting closer in resemblance to S&G, but I think that's been going on for some time. As far as the U.S., immorality didn't seem to be a common topic back then. But it appears that the founding fathers brought with them into our nation along with the bible/Christianity was a certain amount of pagan influences. There were influences from the enlightenment, and secret organizations Christians often consider questionable today. Organizations with practices that may have trickled into college fraternities, Hollywood, and maybe even large corporations. The idea of Christians moving to a new land where they could practice freedom of worship may have been noble, but in and of itself was not in line with the Great Commission. They didn't seem interested in coming to America as missionaries to serve the native peoples they may have heard about from prior seafarers. So judgment on America may have started from the very beginning. And although we have a history of modesty, it's tough to know how much of the more blatant and accepted promiscuity of today didn't actually happen behind closed doors.

There is a Televangelist who predicted the destruction of a certain group of people that, according to this person, was to have taken place in the 90's. It didn't happen, and the type of destruction suggested seemed to mirror the destruction of S&G. So while our society bears certain similarities with S&G, there are distinct differences. There are still people to be reached as Maria indicated. Even in the community said televangelist claimed would be destroyed. Humanitarianism, although a secular theme not given credit to God is at least a tool that helps prevent complete lawlessness. S&G was at the point where once the righteous few left, there was no one left to be saved in the eyes of God.

 

[Hans Blaster]

How uneasy the English mother would feel to see her daughter so unfamiliarly treated and still more to note the obliging manner in which the freedom is returned by the females. James Gilray 1810

I saw a list of moral panics the other day and chess was on the list. I want to know more about the chess moral panic.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I saw a list of moral panics the other day and chess was on the list. I want to know more about the chess moral panic.

From the reactionary pearl-clutching editors of (checks notes) Scientific American.

 

[Whyayeman]

he Englightenment was not reallt an anti religious movement though like anything people used this to denounce religion and God. But it was about a new age of discovery and many still were Christians believing that science would reveal God.

I agree. I would say that the Enlightenment probably began at about the time that astronomers challenged the concept that the Earth was the centre of the universe and alchemists began to share ideas instead of keeping them secret - the birth of systematic analysis of the natural world. Religious belief in Europe began to decline at this time too.

Many, including me, see these as connected. Thus, since that time, religious belief has been in decline. It is not a specially contentious idea.

 

[Whyayeman]

View attachment 344758
View attachment 344759

From the reactionary pearl-clutching editors of (checks notes) Scientific American.

I am not sure that the encouragement 'let them dance [and] sing' would go down well with religious people of a certain bent. There are quite a few sects against that sort of thing; the Puritans of the 17 Century in England and the Taliban in modern Afghanistan spring to mind.

I think chess might be OK with them. Religion can produce some odd prohibitions.

 

[Roderick Spode]

I am not sure that the encouragement 'let them dance [and] sing' would go down well with religious people of a certain bent. There are quite a few sects against that sort of thing; the Puritans of the 17 Century in England and the Taliban in modern Afghanistan spring to mind.

I think chess might be OK with them. Religion can produce some odd prohibitions.

Yeah, this doesn't sound like a religious issue. It almost sounds more like a communist anti-intellectual/bourgeois thing.

 

[stevevw]

I agree with you. It's not just about danger. The reason I pointed that out was because S&G at the time of their destruction, was at a particular level of sin where God saw fit to destroy them. And the number of people counted as righteous were few, and were able to evacuate in time to avoid the cities' destruction.

Yes and just like before the flood all were continuously sinning. We are not there yet. But my point was regarding the OP is that we are certainly well on that path. I think it is especially so in that as Western soiciety was based on JudeoChristian worldview which despite Enlightenment was still prominant with some fluctuations until around mid 20th century it began to compete with secular ideas coming into the public square.

That is when Christianity was targeted and is not being dismantled from public life to the pint where Christianity will be pushed to the finges and even underground. I don't think we will ever get to the point of S&G or pre-flood due to Christs sacrifice. But we there will be S&G like socities growing and becoming mainstream.

I have no doubt that we're getting closer in resemblance to S&G, but I think that's been going on for some time. As far as the U.S., immorality didn't seem to be a common topic back then. But it appears that the founding fathers brought with them into our nation along with the bible/Christianity was a certain amount of pagan influences. There were influences from the enlightenment, and secret organizations Christians often consider questionable today. Organizations with practices that may have trickled into college fraternities, Hollywood, and maybe even large corporations.

Yes I agree, Enlightenment brought the seeds of not only healthy questioning but questioning of everything which we have today in a Post Modern society. But I think when it has deviated from Christianity its been a concerted effort to undermine it on an ideological level and not a science or rational one.

This culminated in the ideologies that stemmed from academia which had engaged in a concerted effort to reconstruct Gods order, human nature into a human made idea and belief about how the world and humans are ordered. Like you said this has infiltrated into our institutions and mainstream society.

This socially engineered ideology was sitting in the fringes of society and as Gods order has been taken out of society it was a ready made worldview that could fill the void as it is also steeped in morality of equality, inclusion and diversity. Its a powerful ideology that can fool people due to its nobel cause. But like all religions it comes with unsupported ideas about reality.

The thing about Gods order through CHristianity, though the church had exploited their position the fundemental truths that the West had adopted through Christianity also aligned with reality, with natures order. So as Christianity is replaced by a new world order so are the fundemental truths into disorder.

The idea of Christians moving to a new land where they could practice freedom of worship may have been noble, but in and of itself was not in line with the Great Commission. They didn't seem interested in coming to America as missionaries to serve the native peoples they may have heard about from prior seafarers. So judgment on America may have started from the very beginning. And although we have a history of modesty, it's tough to know how much of the more blatant and accepted promiscuity of today didn't actually happen behind closed doors.

Yes in some ways you could say that the founders who left to begin a new established Christian order in another land were also beginning a seperation from Gods order by questioning not just the church but Gods word and order as well.

Since then its been a gradual chipping away at Gods order. But I am not sure that Enlightenment or questioning the Church evil practices was what led people away from God.

There is this side to humans that wants to rebel against God and do it their way. It seems that many have gradually rebelled in small ways as the church had such a hold to the point where people convinced themselves that what they were doing was good and justified when it wasn't.

There is a Televangelist who predicted the destruction of a certain group of people that, according to this person, was to have taken place in the 90's. It didn't happen, and the type of destruction suggested seemed to mirror the destruction of S&G. So while our society bears certain similarities with S&G, there are distinct differences. There are still people to be reached as Maria indicated. Even in the community said televangelist claimed would be destroyed. Humanitarianism, although a secular theme not given credit to God is at least a tool that helps prevent complete lawlessness. S&G was at the point where once the righteous few left, there was no one left to be saved in the eyes of God.

Yes that brings to mind Lot and his family who were saved from S&G because Abraham pleaded that even if 10 could be saved God would not destroy the city. I agree theres plenty of work to be done. Look at China where many have not had the chance to hear the gospel.

But I think some sort of awakening must happen as I cannot see how anyone could penetrate China's hold on its people.

Many people have made predictions but often from a judemental position rather than one of understanding. Jesus says we can know the time is coming like how the trees changing with seasons.

Those signs are more than just danger or bad stuff happening. Its many things. But all I know is we took some pretty big steps towards that end in the last half of the 20th century and especially at the beginning of the 21st century.

 

[Whyayeman]

Enlightenment brought the seeds of not only healthy questioning but questioning of everything which we have today in a Post Modern society. But I think when it has deviated from Christianity its been a concerted effort to undermine it on an ideological level and not a science or rational one.

There is no 'concerted effort to undermine [Christianity] at an ideological level'. There is no campaign.

What has occurred over the period from the Enlightenment is that rational thought has prevailed over traditional explanations for the workings of the universe. Religious explanations have become less convincing than science. It is not entirely surprising that a well-educated populace with access to books is less in thrall to the churches than in the time before universal literacy.

Religious belief is falling away as understanding of the natural world is increasing.

 

[stevevw]

There is no 'concerted effort to undermine [Christianity] at an ideological level'. There is no campaign.

What has occurred over the period from the Enlightenment is that rational thought has prevailed over traditional explanations for the workings of the universe. Religious explanations have become less convincing than science. It is not entirely surprising that a well-educated populace with access to books is less in thrall to the churches than in the time before universal literacy.

Religious belief is falling away as understanding of the natural world is increasing.

Really, I am not sure of that. Enligtenment and rational thought only tell us one part of the equation of life. It has nothing to say about the meaningful questions that Christianity is interested in. Its silly to think wee can seperate ourselves from our own subjective thinking and to say that ideology is not mixed up in our rationalities.

If its not a Christian worldview its another ideological worldview which is underpinning our assumptions and influencing what we choose to rationalise as good or fact over other truths and facts that may not meet the scientific rationalist worldview.

It was good for people to think for themselves but we are all subject to biases and beliefs about how the world is and should be ordered. Religious belief as in God and gods may be falling away but its being replaced by another religious belief in the form of ideology, beliefs about the fundemental nature of reality as being material matter rather than anything else.

From that basic assumption and belief comes many other beliefs that influence how we see human nature and nature itself and how we order society and the world. Its in our economics, policies, laws, relationships, regulations, ethical codes and norms.

 

[ViaCrucis]

There is no 'concerted effort to undermine [Christianity] at an ideological level'. There is no campaign.

What has occurred over the period from the Enlightenment is that rational thought has prevailed over traditional explanations for the workings of the universe. Religious explanations have become less convincing than science. It is not entirely surprising that a well-educated populace with access to books is less in thrall to the churches than in the time before universal literacy.

Religious belief is falling away as understanding of the natural world is increasing.

I would disagree with this. There is an effort to undermine Christianity at an ideological level. But it's not coming from "the secular", from atheists, or the non-religious, etc. It's coming from the religious, from Christians. The undermining of Christianity is not coming from an external source, but an internal one.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BCP1928]

Yes this is interesting in light of current times and how many are moving away from God. It seems the culture at present has been growing to almost antagonism towards Gods message in mainstream society.

So it seems that going out into the world to preach the gospel is very relevant today. But it also means that it is a time frought with trials and tribulations where Christians will be called to put their faith into action and be persecuted in Christs name just as He said.

So maybe it's time for you to start preaching the Gospel of Christ instead of the Gospel of "Western Christian Culture."

 

[Roderick Spode]

Yes and just like before the flood all were continuously sinning. We are not there yet. But my point was regarding the OP is that we are certainly well on that path. I think it is especially so in that as Western soiciety was based on JudeoChristian worldview which despite Enlightenment was still prominant with some fluctuations until around mid 20th century it began to compete with secular ideas coming into the public square.

That is when Christianity was targeted and is not being dismantled from public life to the pint where Christianity will be pushed to the finges and even underground. I don't think we will ever get to the point of S&G or pre-flood due to Christs sacrifice. But we there will be S&G like socities growing and becoming mainstream.

Yes I agree, Enlightenment brought the seeds of not only healthy questioning but questioning of everything which we have today in a Post Modern society. But I think when it has deviated from Christianity its been a concerted effort to undermine it on an ideological level and not a science or rational one.

This culminated in the ideologies that stemmed from academia which had engaged in a concerted effort to reconstruct Gods order, human nature into a human made idea and belief about how the world and humans are ordered. Like you said this has infiltrated into our institutions and mainstream society.

This socially engineered ideology was sitting in the fringes of society and as Gods order has been taken out of society it was a ready made worldview that could fill the void as it is also steeped in morality of equality, inclusion and diversity. Its a powerful ideology that can fool people due to its nobel cause. But like all religions it comes with unsupported ideas about reality.

The thing about Gods order through CHristianity, though the church had exploited their position the fundemental truths that the West had adopted through Christianity also aligned with reality, with natures order. So as Christianity is replaced by a new world order so are the fundemental truths into disorder.

Yes in some ways you could say that the founders who left to begin a new established Christian order in another land were also beginning a seperation from Gods order by questioning not just the church but Gods word and order as well.

Since then its been a gradual chipping away at Gods order. But I am not sure that Enlightenment or questioning the Church evil practices was what led people away from God.

There is this side to humans that wants to rebel against God and do it their way. It seems that many have gradually rebelled in small ways as the church had such a hold to the point where people convinced themselves that what they were doing was good and justified when it wasn't.

Yes that brings to mind Lot and his family who were saved from S&G because Abraham pleaded that even if 10 could be saved God would not destroy the city. I agree theres plenty of work to be done. Look at China where many have not had the chance to hear the gospel.

But I think some sort of awakening must happen as I cannot see how anyone could penetrate China's hold on its people.

Many people have made predictions but often from a judemental position rather than one of understanding. Jesus says we can know the time is coming like how the trees changing with seasons.

Those signs are more than just danger or bad stuff happening. Its many things. But all I know is we took some pretty big steps towards that end in the last half of the 20th century and especially at the beginning of the 21st century.

Eventually the earth of course will experience the same plight as S&G, so I entirely agree that we're heading in that direction.

I consider the generation we're in now the Sin Responsibly generation. The idea that sin in moderation is okay as long as it doesn't directly harm the public or self. Which can also build up a sense of pride when sin leads to a downfall for others who are not able to sin in moderation.But sin leads to death, and the downfall of any civilization whether in controlled moderation, or total lawless abandonment.

 

[RoBo1988]

The undermining of Christianity is not coming from an external source, but an internal one.

I don't necessarily disagree. Could you be more specific as to what those sources are?

IMO, What we know as mainstream culture in the United States, is no longer moral, and especially not Christian. A practicing Christian, is a part of today's counterculture.

 

[AlexB23]

I am interested in this as I was speaking to some friends the other day about how especially in the media, Hollywood, Music and entertainment there seems to be this pagan or even Satanic ritualistism going on. Things like wearing these head dresses with goat horns and other pagan symbols. Its alwats very provocative and sexual as well. Almost a celebration of our animalistic side.

I think I know what is happening. Just loike in the days when people defied God they turned to nature, to animals and nature itself like Stone idols. Now that modern society is rejecting God this same belief is coming back. It may seem natural for people to worship nature as god. But primarily when this happens its not really about gods in nature but the self as god.

Also in those times people were made gods when theres no transcendent God. As self is god desires and feelings and self experience becomes the god. Therefore pleasure and all the good feelings are moral and the aweful feeling ones are sin.

So are we seeing a repeat of the down fall of society like Sodom and Gormorrah or like with how Empires have fallen where sexxual immorality and pleasure and where the created is worshipped and not the Creator.

I made a post about this very thing, and I think it is getting more ritualistic nowadays. But, that being said, at the same time, it's natural for us to be concerned about the moral direction of society and the influence of sin and evil in the world. However, rather than focusing on the signs of the times or the increase in demonic activity, we are called to live out our faith in practical ways, through acts of love, service, and witness to the world around us.

So while there may be evidence of moral decay/spiritual darkness in our world, as Christians we are called to respond with hope and faith, trusting in God's sovereignty and continuing to share the good news of Jesus Christ with those around us. Ultimately, it is up to each person to seek a deeper understanding of God's word and to live out their faith.

Post: Demonic activity in the 2020s from the entertainment industry

 

[Whyayeman]

[The Enlightenment and rational thought] has nothing to say about the meaningful questions that Christianity is interested in.

I could probably respond to this point better if I was clearer what questions Christianity is interested in. I hope I am on the right track with some assumptions about them.

There have been many occasions here and elsewhere when non-religious moral frameworks have been compared to of Christianity. It turns out that they are very similar. Principles of justice, charity towards others and the brotherhood mankind are not unique features of any world view.

 

[BCP1928]

I could probably respond to this point better if I was clearer what questions Christianity is interested in. I hope I am on the right track with some assumptions about them.

There have been many occasions here and elsewhere when non-religious moral frameworks have been compared to of Christianity. It turns out that they are very similar. Principles of justice, charity towards others and the brotherhood mankind are not unique features of any world view.

It's really just about the sex part any more.

 

[stevevw]

So maybe it's time for you to start preaching the Gospel of Christ instead of the Gospel of "Western Christian Culture."

I am noy sure what you mean.