Is Jesus God?

[Andrewn]

Where are you getting this list of attributes? Not from the Bible?

Thomas Aquinas. I think it is agreed upon among Christians:

Attributes of God in Christianity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Andrewn]

The human nature of God the Son does not need to have God attributes in order for the God nature to have them. Two-natures one Person.

Yes. All small o orthodox Christians accept Jesus's divinity.

Yes, Jesus is God. The Bible, in the Great Shema, teaches us that there is only one God and that is YHWH. The Bible also teaches us that the man Jesus is Christ and YHWH, which we receive as a holy mystery by faith.

True. But the question is whether Jesus' divine nature has _all_ the attributes of God the Father.

 

[Andrewn]

Jesus Christ is God because He says He is. That's good enough for me.

Jesus' actions and words certainly imply that He is divine / has divine attributes. But He doesn't say He is God the Father. If you have a verse where Jesus says He is God, that would be of great help in my discussions w/ Muslims.

 

[BobRyan]

True. But the question is whether Jesus' divine nature has _all_ the attributes of God the Father.

Why would the God nature of God the Son not have all the attributes of God the Father in your POV?

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus' actions and words certainly imply that He is divine / has divine attributes. But He doesn't say He is God the Father.

One God Deut 6:4
In Three Persons - Matt 28:19

So in John 17 - Jesus is not praying to Himself.

When He says "not my will but thy will" He is not speaking to Himself.

If you have a verse where Jesus says He is God, that would be of great help in my discussions w/ Muslims.

John 1:1-3 and Col 1 make it clear that He is the God that Muslims think created all the world.

Col 1:16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

John 1:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. ...10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him.

When angels are worshiped in the NT - they immediately say to stop

But Jesus is worshiped several times in the Gospels - and does not refuse it. That includes the point where Thomas worships Him saying "My Lord and my God"

Jesus said in John 14 "why do you say - Show us the Father -- if you have seen Me - you have seen the Father" ... 'Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me"

 

[Margaret3110]

Thomas Aquinas. I think it is agreed upon among Christians:

Attributes of God in Christianity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ok. I studied Aquinas fairly in depth in college. He was heavily influenced by Aristotle.

It's not that I disagree with the list of attributes, but I think just listing them like that is overly simplistic when trying to talk about the Trinity or the Second Person of the Trinity made flesh. Having read Aquinas, I know he treats these subjects with considerable detail and complexity. But it's been a while since I've read him, so I couldn't tell you how he reconciles all of that.

 

[Margaret3110]

Jesus' actions and words certainly imply that He is divine / has divine attributes. But He doesn't say He is God the Father. If you have a verse where Jesus says He is God, that would be of great help in my discussions w/ Muslims.

He isn't God the Father, he is God the Son. There are many verses where Jesus claims divinity. John 8:58 "Before Abraham was, I am" - which echoes God's name "I am who am" as revealed to Moses. In response to him saying that, the people picked up stones to stone him, the punishment for blasphemy; in other words, they knew what he was saying.

Another instance - "Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” And Jesus said, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” And the high priest tore his garments and said, “What further witnesses do we need? You have heard his blasphemy." (Mark 14:61-64) Again, they're accusing him of blasphemy. They understand what he's saying. The reference is to the book of Daniel.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Jesus' actions and words certainly imply that He is divine / has divine attributes. But He doesn't say He is God the Father. If you have a verse where Jesus says He is God, that would be of great help in my discussions w/ Muslims.

Jesus is not God the Father. We see this clearly at His baptism. The Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Although they are separate persons, they are of the same essence. The verse that shows Jesus is God is when He said, "Before Abraham was I AM." This is the same name that God gave his name to Abraham: I AM who I AM, and gave to Moses to tell Pharaoh who sent him: "Say, I AM has sent you." Jesus also said, "I and my Father are one".

 

[RileyG]

True. But the question is whether Jesus' divine nature has _all_ the attributes of God the Father.

God the Son is not God the Father.

 

[oikonomia]

Jesus is not God the Father. We see this clearly at His baptism. The Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Although they are separate persons, they are of the same essence.

Praise the Lord. The three of the Trinity are distinct but not seperate is how I was taught.
In our subjective experience we cannot detect any separation from the Three.

Jesus in our experience is the Father though they are distinct in the Bible.
Since God knew that in our experience there would be no seperation some verses give us heads up.

For a child is born to us, / A Son is given to us; / And the government / Is upon His shoulder; / And His name will be called / Wonderful Counselor, / Mighty God, / Eternal Father, / Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

Miracle of miracles. A child ... born is the Mighty God. A Son . . . given is the Eternal Father.

We cannot tell in our being that this God who is unto us has any seperation.
So Jesus says to see Him is to see the Father.

Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father and it is sufficient for us.

Jesus said to him, Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Philip?
He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how is it that you say, Show us the Father? (John 14:8,9)

It is as if Jesus was reminding Philip of the prophecy of Isaiah 9:6. God came as a little child born.
The Father came embodied in a Son given.

His baptism revealed a distinction. But the Son lives in the Father and the Father lives in the Son.
Within us, which is His destination to be, we cannot detect any seperation.

The verse that shows Jesus is God is when He said, "Before Abraham was I AM." This is the same name that God gave his name to Abraham: I AM who I AM, and gave to Moses to tell Pharaoh who sent him: "Say, I AM has sent you." Jesus also said, "I and my Father are one".

Absolutely, God became a man. The great "I AM" was there before them.
And now the great "I AM" is dispensed into us who have received Christ.

See the Apostle Paul in his Romans letter uses these terms interchangably as the One living and indwelling
the Christians.

But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him.

But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness.

And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you. (Rom. 8:9-11)

The One indwelling us is the Spirit of God. In the next breath this One is also the Spirit of Christ.
Then seamlessly he tells us this One is Christ. This One is also "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead."
This One is the giving divine life through His Spirit who indwells us.

Christ Jesus is the one who gives divine life because "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45b)
We can call God "Father" because He has begotten us and given to us divine life.

The Father who begot us and gave to us life is also in all of the members of the Body of Christ.
One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Eph. 4:6)

I can never explain the Trinity with our limited human language.
But I know the One indwelling us is such that the Three live within each other.

 

[I's2C]

CHRIST is GOD!

“Thou shall not have any other god before me”. To say CHRIST is not GOD where through all scripture we are taught that you cannot get to the FATHER without going through CHRIST. To worship CHRIST without knowing HE is GOD would be breaking the commandment above all commandments. To worship CHRIST as a separate enmity is Blaspheme.

Scripture is clear; just as Satan has many roles, so does GOD just to be fair and just, with every negative there is a positive. GOD allows Satan's spirit to roam but at the same time HE gives us the COMFORTER- HOLY SPIRIT. GOD does this so that when White Throne judgement comes there will be no excuses that HE wasn’t fair. He allowed Satan here dejure at the same time CHRIST- dejure –a negative and positive being completely fair.

GOD didn’t ask us the created to do anything (ELOHIM- creator) HIMSELF, was not willingly to do. In order for this HE became flesh as the SAVIOR of the world that "whom so ever will come unto HIM shall have everlasting life (YAHSHUA- GODS SAVIOR).

Yes it is true that scriptures tell us that No man knows the exact time the end occurs, no not even JESUS; for that scripture to be true just as all inspired scripture from GOD is true. CHRIST while in the flesh so that scripture could be said “no one (flesh) knows”.

That is only because as I stated GOD wanted to show us how it could be done, no man knows so therefore it had to be while CHRIST was in the flesh could not know. Because GOD coming in the flesh, we can say with our limited brain use that there was a small part of HIM that split to play the role, so HE could come in the flesh-in essence HIS right hand. What is someone’s right hand? For vast majority, it is their dominant hand that does most of their work; Scripture uses this analogy over and over. CHRIST as the right hand of GOD did GODS work. HE went through everything man went through-birth, death and all in between. CHRIST did not know, didn’t want to know, so HE could play HIS part to the fullest where there could be no excuse at White Throne judgement, where one might say “well you didn’t go through what we did”, that excuse can’t be used.

When HE was/is part of the GODHEAD as one in the 1st age and immediately after HIS resurrection becoming GODHEAD again does know. There will be the right hand of GOD again playing the role for the millennium as TEACHER/PREACHER- KING of kings and LORD of lords for 1k years. They become 1 GODHEAD after Whit Throne judgement for eternity.

Just as in 1st age each of us who stood against Satan in the flesh, volunteered for the roles we play in the flesh. Though we have no remembrance of it, GOD would never make anyone do anything they did not want to do. I can say with certainty that we volunteered for our roles if we are of the Election. That is why some were predestined for a predetermined time to do what they had promised GOD they would do in 1st age. If they didn’t go through with the promise they made to GOD; HE was justified to sway and punish if needed. Paul comes to mind: in the flesh it was his free will, (having no memory of the promise) to persecute the church but his predetermined destiny was to be a zealous builder of Christianity.

GOD has many parts HE assumes just as Satan does. Melchezadek in Abraham’s time, Tree of Life in Garden of Eve and the negative was tree of good and evil, HIS Angel-the essence of HIMSELF came to many, Abraham comes to mind where he wrestled with GOD all day and wouldn’t give up, Abraham had to be something else, little wander why he was so blessed. Equal negative and positive.

Make no mistake what I am saying there is only one! with the FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT. They are one but have roles to play while this flesh age continues. GOD does this because HE loves us, HE did not have too, HE could have destroyed the whole creation in 1st age; but HIS awesome plan so not to destroy 1/3rd of HIS children who fallowed Satan in 1st age, wanted to give all a chance to choose once and for all.

“No man can look upon GOD and live”, the Shekinah glory of GOD would instantly consume the flesh that is unclean. Only in our spiritual form can we sustain HIS glorious state. HE became flesh so that flesh man would know it can be done, he showed how to do it; HE showed us how to defeat Satan.

HE tried to come and abide in the ark so HE could be with man because HE loved us so, but time after time they abused it and it had to be taking up from us. GOD tried so hard, with the patience only a loving GOD could have to be part of our lives going back from very beginning and in the Exodus as a Pillar of light night and as a cloud in the day. In the ark and the HOLY of Holies. HE so much wanted to walk in the flesh life with us but man kept rejecting HIM over and over. Now we see what happens when a void created by man rejecting GOD. Satan is quick to step in; is by man’s own making, a confused, upside down world, calamities of our own making.

1 has to understand that there was an age before this flesh age where every single soul was created in a spiritual body. We were all Angels (I don’t necessarily like using that word because of man’s pollution of it, I rather use RUACH) before this age lived millions of years before Lucifer’s downfall.

When GOD said let us make man in OUR own image, HE was including HIMSELF in that phrase. HE was talking about the created Ruach as well as Omnipotent GOD in the form of CHRIST the SAVIOR-“if you have seen the SON you have seen the FATHER” The WORD was in the beginning and the WORD became flesh.
Sorry for this quick response without scripture but wanted to reply because a good question, but didn't have time, maybe another time will write a thesis if I dont already have. Thats why have written over and over in post that if you dont understand the ages you cant understand, why, where, when, who the 4 ws.

 

[mindlight]

The incommunicable attributes of God are:

Aseity (Independence)

Infinity

Immutability (unchangeability)

Simplicity


Does Jesus Christ possess these attributes? And in what sense is he true God from true God as per the Nicene Creed?

Jesus as God has these attributes in community with the other members of the God-Head.

Becoming a man does not change his essentially Divine nature since man images God. He can be fully human without his actions as a human, or life as one, distorting or changing the Divinity.

A man is mortal, finite and aside from Christ and perfected heavenly citizens he is imperfect also. But a man can be connected to the Divine and in communication with the Divine and he is also touched by the incommunicable attributes of God in His very nature, in that he images God. There is something of infinite worth, a degree of free will and something lasting that does not change written into the identity of each human being because they image the Divine.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Isn't the idea that Jesus laid aside (put on hold so to speak) certain godly attributes he had before the Incarnation, and then took them up again when he returned to heaven?

 

[OldAbramBrown]

the pattern son we all follow 2 days/2000 cubits behind

What is the meaning of these two quantifications (ontological, and relational, respectively)?

 

[OldAbramBrown]

CHRIST is GOD!

“Thou shall not ... the 4 ws.

Holy Scripture doesn't specifically support reincarnation or subsequent incarnation of most human beings, God evidently created each of us at unique times.

 

[honey badger]

What is the meaning of these two quantifications (ontological, and relational, respectively)?

2000 years ... its the process of time which is not seperate from the process of our soul you find in the seven creative days or seven feasts three of which our soul must keep ... Pentecost which is in the midst of the week as in the feast between passover and tabernacles is in picture a wilderness we wander in caught between two mountains which relates to eating of a tree of two fruits ... a tree Jesus was hung on ...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The Word of God is begotten of the Father before all ages. This means that the Son does not have aseity (Independence). Also, the Word took flesh, so He does not have immutability. And the flesh is not simple in composition. Sure, He has omnipotence, but He seems to lack omniscience as He does not know the Hour. What am I missing?

I'm having discussions with/ Muslims, and these issues come up.

If having a discussion with Muslims is what this is all about, simply ask them "which Annunciation" the Angel Gabriel actually gave to Mary? Either Mohammad got it right or Luke did 500 years before, but both can't be right.

 

[oikonomia]

Isn't the idea that Jesus laid aside (put on hold so to speak) certain godly attributes he had before the Incarnation, and then took them up again when he returned to heaven?

Do you mean this?

First what Christ laid aside:

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus,
Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God a treasure to be grasped,
But emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, becoming in the likeness of men;
And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death, and that the death of a cross. (Phil.2:5-8 Recovery Version)

Second what Christ took up:

Therefore also God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
And every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:9-11 Recovery Version)

Does this portion of Scripture kind of express what you mean?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Do you mean this?

First what Christ laid aside:

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus,
Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God a treasure to be grasped,
But emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, becoming in the likeness of men;
And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death, and that the death of a cross. (Phil.2:5-8 Recovery Version)

Second what Christ took up:

Therefore also God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
And every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:9-11 Recovery Version)

Does this portion of Scripture kind of express what you mean?

Yep.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The incommunicable attributes of God are:

Aseity (Independence)

Infinity

Immutability (unchangeability)

Simplicity


Does Jesus Christ possess these attributes? And in what sense is he true God from true God as per the Nicene Creed?

The Church of England states:

I. OF FAITH IN THE HOLY TRINITY​

​

THERE is but one living and true God, ever- lasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.​

​

II. OF THE WORD OR SON OF GOD, WHICH WAS MADE VERY MAN​

​

THE Son, which is the Word of the Father, begotten from everlasting of the Father, the very and eternal God, and of one substance with the Father, took Man's nature in the womb of the blessed Virgin, of her substance: so that two whole and perfect Natures, that is to say, the Godhead and Manhood, were joined together in one Person, never to be divided, whereof is one Christ, very God, and very Man; who truly suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for all actual sins of men.​

[Articles of Religion | The Church of England]

Have you read through the Thirty Nine Articles of Religion of the Church of England?

There is a Catechism of the Church of England too.

A Catechism | The Church of England

A Catechism, from The Book of Common Prayer (1662). Cambridge University Press, 2006 edition.

www.churchofengland.org