Is it worth it....

[leftrightleftrightleft]

= Just because one does not enjoy your standard of happiness or living does not make him miserable.

I'm not sure if you're arguing just to argue or what.

If you see someone crying and about to kill themselves do you say, "That person is miserable." or do you pause and say, "No wait, that's just me judging them as miserable based on my own standard of happiness; I shouldn't judge, they're probably fine; ecstatic even!"

Don't be ridiculous. We all know that someone who is lacking self-confidence is generally less happy than someone who is confident. We all know that someone who has vulnerability issues is generally less happy then someone who does not hide who they are. If someone has buried fears and baggage, any therapist would not say, "Oh good, keep that stuff buried, it'll make you happier." No, they would suggest delving into those fears and that baggage and extinguishing them.

Happiness is self-professed. If someone says and believes they are happy, then they probably are. If someone says they have all these insecurities and self-confidence issues and they say they aren't happy, then they aren't happy by definition. It doesn't require my judgment. If someone says they aren't happy, then they aren't.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

I think that non-Christians can have all of the happiness I have mentioned, but it seems so much better following Christ. I feel spiritually full now. I've tried it both ways.

When you say you've tried it both ways, do you mean you've tried it as a Christian and then also tried it as a godless, agnostic/atheist with a life devoid of spirituality who rarely thought about his meaning or purpose?

I agree with you that, in my experience the godless people with no spirituality who end up rarely thinking about their meaning or purpose and who have no spiritual discipline and live a life of semi-hedonism are generally unhappier and less fulfilled.

But have you tried Buddhism? Islam? Taoism? Spiritual Atheism?

I've found that happiness and fulfillment aren't all that well correlated with a specific religion or spiritual discipline in general, but the happier, wiser and more fulfilled people are usually passionate about some spiritual belief system and usually have a general sense of purpose and some degree of spiritual or moral discipline.

 

[elman]

I'm not sure if you're arguing just to argue or what.

If you see someone crying and about to kill themselves do you say, "That person is miserable." or do you pause and say, "No wait, that's just me judging them as miserable based on my own standard of happiness; I shouldn't judge, they're probably fine; ecstatic even!"

Don't be ridiculous. We all know that someone who is lacking self-confidence is generally less happy than someone who is confident. We all know that someone who has vulnerability issues is generally less happy then someone who does not hide who they are. If someone has buried fears and baggage, any therapist would not say, "Oh good, keep that stuff buried, it'll make you happier." No, they would suggest delving into those fears and that baggage and extinguishing them.

Happiness is self-professed. If someone says and believes they are happy, then they probably are. If someone says they have all these insecurities and self-confidence issues and they say they aren't happy, then they aren't happy by definition. It doesn't require my judgment. If someone says they aren't happy, then they aren't.

I think we can be happy and not be aware of it. I think we will be aware of being miserable. Happiness is not something that one can set as goal to achieve. It is always reached as a bank shot. I don't see us ever achieving happiness as a direct assult. If we are to be happy we need to be about making someone else happy. That is what will result in our happiness.

 

[kimmyh51]

Is it worth it to be miserable for the sake of the truth?

Why will the truth make you miserable? As a relatively new christian (just over a year) I would say that misery has been taken away by god. I was far more miserable before I was saved

So I am wondering why you are asking this. Is it that you think it must be miserable, or is there something about your own individual situation, which means being saved will cost you something, or someone and therefore make you miserable?

 

[mindfulness]

Experts will tell you that if something is causing you undue distress (including a religion, or religious beliefs), then it's either time to consider other options or to abandon it altogether.

Fortunately, I'm not of the camp that believes God wants people to be miserable. I know that puts me in the minority here, and among most religious people, but that is my view. I don't see why anyone would choose to follow God if they believed life would only get worse. (And let's not even go there with martyrs or martyr syndrome.)

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

I think we can be happy and not be aware of it. I think we will be aware of being miserable. Happiness is not something that one can set as goal to achieve. It is always reached as a bank shot. I don't see us ever achieving happiness as a direct assult. If we are to be happy we need to be about making someone else happy. That is what will result in our happiness.

Certainly. Aiming to be happy will likely end in failure. But that doesn't mean that its fairly self-explanatory when someone is not happy; if you talk to someone and they complain and are crying or are talking about how unhappy they are then I'm not somehow using "my own" subjective standard to judge them happy or not happy. They aren't happy. Case closed.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Why will the truth make you miserable? As a relatively new christian (just over a year) I would say that misery has been taken away by god. I was far more miserable before I was saved

So I am wondering why you are asking this. Is it that you think it must be miserable, or is there something about your own individual situation, which means being saved will cost you something, or someone and therefore make you miserable?

Its for three reasons:

1) I tried to be a full-fledged Christian for about 2 and a half years. The whole process was a horrible struggle and I ended up being a lot more stressed and unhappy than when I started.

2) I feel like trying to force myself to believe in the Bible and believe that Jesus literally and physically rose from the dead somehow isn't being true to myself or who I am. It doesn't line up with my experiences or my thought processes. To be a Christian means to be someone I'm not. It means abandoning certain value systems that define me and are incredibly important. And before a Christian says that being a Christian means letting go of those things and giving yourself to God, I would ask them how easy they think it would be for them to change their belief systems, value systems and thought processes. Its not easy. And it seems like a betrayal of something definitive that makes me me. Its amazing how the people that want to convert you are often the people that most stubbornly would not be converted to anything else.

3) This question about the truth of misery applies well to atheists too. I find that if I use pure reason and logic, an atheist, materialist universe seems the most obvious. But this is also highly unfulfilling and, even it is truth, is it worth it to accept that truth and be unfulfilled and unhappy?

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Experts will tell you that if something is causing you undue distress (including a religion, or religious beliefs), then it's either time to consider other options or to abandon it altogether.

Fortunately, I'm not of the camp that believes God wants people to be miserable. I know that puts me in the minority here, and among most religious people, but that is my view. I don't see why anyone would choose to follow God if they believed life would only get worse. (And let's not even go there with martyrs or martyr syndrome.)

To you, is the goal self-fulfillment or relationship with God?

Idealistically, I would say that the two go hand in hand, if you are fulfilled then you are having some relationship with God even if you are labelling it something else.

 

[mindfulness]

To you, is the goal self-fulfillment or relationship with God?

Idealistically, I would say that the two go hand in hand, if you are fulfilled then you are having some relationship with God even if you are labelling it something else.

I would ask, why is it that you are presenting it as an "either / or" dichotomy? That doesn't make sense to me.

There are secular people who are very happy, or at least "think" they are. And it's not my place to assume whether professed happiness is not happiness at all. What I can say is that it would be nice to think that walking with God ought to bring about some level of fulfillment. However, it doesn't for all. For some, religion brings more burdens than it does relieves them.

 

[kimmyh51]

For some, religion brings more burdens than it does relieves them.

i notice you use the word religon there, rather than god

possibly the reason for the burdens is the religon, rather than the god?

was there a reason you chose that word? (or am i just drawing conclusions where I shouldnt be?