Is it not God’s will or just not His time?

leothelioness

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I posted on this topic in another part of the forum, but didn’t find that the response really got to the heart of my question, so thought I would ask here to see what my Reformed brothers and sisters think. :)

I understand that there is a direct relationship between our prayers and God’s will. As John MacArthur has said, God uses our prayers as the means by which He achieves His will, so my question is, there’s something I’ve been praying about for a while now and while I’ve seen some answers I’ve also met a few roadblocks along the way. It seems confusing to get both yes and no answers about the same thing, and while my way is seemingly closed up for now, my heart still feels pulled in that direction and it feels wrong to give up on it and not pray about it. I know that sometimes God says “wait” and sometimes that can look a lot like a “no”. And sometimes He places obstacles to strengthen our faith (as He did with the Syro-Phoenician woman), but how do we determine which way to go when the place where we most want to be is closed off to us, at least for the moment?
At what point do we accept something as not being God’s will and move on versus continue to persevere in prayer because it just may not be His time?
 

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I posted on this topic in another part of the forum, but didn’t find that the response really got to the heart of my question, so thought I would ask here to see what my Reformed brothers and sisters think. :)

I understand that there is a direct relationship between our prayers and God’s will. As John MacArthur has said, God uses our prayers as the means by which He achieves His will, so my question is, there’s something I’ve been praying about for a while now and while I’ve seen some answers I’ve also met a few roadblocks along the way. It seems confusing to get both yes and no answers about the same thing, and while my way is seemingly closed up for now, my heart still feels pulled in that direction and it feels wrong to give up on it and not pray about it. I know that sometimes God says “wait” and sometimes that can look a lot like a “no”. And sometimes He places obstacles to strengthen our faith (as He did with the Syro-Phoenician woman), but how do we determine which way to go when the place where we most want to be is closed off to us, at least for the moment?
At what point do we accept something as not being God’s will and move on versus continue to persevere in prayer because it just may not be His time?
I cannot think of any time that Jesus told us not to pray or to stop praying so I would continue God moves on His own schedule but He always get things done on time.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Luke 18:1 (NLT) One day Jesus told his disciples a story to show that they should always pray and never give up.

I'd say pray about it every day for the rest of your life if it really means something to you. I'd go even so far as to say the amount of energy and time you spend praying over something has a direct correlation to how much it means to you. And if it means something to you, as God's child, you can be sure it means something to Him and His response is never far away.
 
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The Righterzpen

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I posted on this topic in another part of the forum, but didn’t find that the response really got to the heart of my question, so thought I would ask here to see what my Reformed brothers and sisters think. :)

I understand that there is a direct relationship between our prayers and God’s will. As John MacArthur has said, God uses our prayers as the means by which He achieves His will, so my question is, there’s something I’ve been praying about for a while now and while I’ve seen some answers I’ve also met a few roadblocks along the way. It seems confusing to get both yes and no answers about the same thing, and while my way is seemingly closed up for now, my heart still feels pulled in that direction and it feels wrong to give up on it and not pray about it. I know that sometimes God says “wait” and sometimes that can look a lot like a “no”. And sometimes He places obstacles to strengthen our faith (as He did with the Syro-Phoenician woman), but how do we determine which way to go when the place where we most want to be is closed off to us, at least for the moment?
At what point do we accept something as not being God’s will and move on versus continue to persevere in prayer because it just may not be His time?

Well, I've also heard (and you've probably heard this too) that prayer doesn't change God; it changes us!

There have been a lot of circumstances in my own life where if I prayed for a certain outcome, that outcome never came to fruition; or at least it never came to fruition in the way that I thought it should!

But I realized that if I prayed for God's will to be done (because I certainly had to admit that I didn't know what God's will was) then eventually I found the place that I could come to peace with what ever the outcome was. So eventually my prayers became ones for wisdom, than they became ones for outcomes. And I still pray that God give me strength to deal with whatever the outcome is; and what action should I take as I am inevitably part of that outcome. Because it's true; there are things that happen in this life that are just heartbreaking.

I've prayed for the salvation of family members who died in their sin. I prayed for at least a decade for my mother who was an alcoholic. She went to her grave shaking her fist at God and angry at the world because she was going to die.

Now I'm not the kind of person who "sees demons under every rock". I don't generally think (or worry) about the spiritual realm; but I do believe my mother was possessed by something. We found out about the beginning of April 2002 that she had lung cancer and her funeral was the first week in May of 2002. My son was only 3 months old. It was a very psychologically stressful time in my life.

Mom had gotten out of the hospital and I distinctly remember the first time I went to my parent's house after she was home. As soon as I opened the door; I felt this incredibly heavy oppression. That's never happened before and I've never felt it since. I'm not a "woo woo" looking for ghosts or demons type of person. But the first thought that came to mind was the book of Revelation. The lid of hell had been peeled back and all these demonic forces were spilling out into my parents' living room. I even (later when we were in the kitchen) asked my dad if he felt this presence too and he said "yes". Other family members described feeling the exact same thing. My one sister (who's very "ghost paranoid") didn't want to go in the house.

Mom though, had some REALLY twisted "dysfunctional" thinking and said some really strange and twisted things when she was drunk. (My brother is a pedophile and my mother was... somehow OK with that??) I don't understand that and it's not that mom couldn't admit that she knew morally that my brother's behavior was wrong. But in her eyes he was somehow worthy of getting what ever in life he thought or felt that he wanted or "needed". So that environment, for the dynamic of my entire life was the psychological environment of my family of origin.

My dad, who I saw as kind of like Lot stuck in the middle of Sodom; was not an immoral person. He certainly didn't have the same "illness" my brother had. But I found out a lot about my mother's side of the family from my dad after my mother died. Dad was psychologically tormented for decades. Mom had told dad that if he called the authorities or reported any of what my brother was doing that she'd tell the cops dad was the guilty party. Dad had told me that he talked to a lawyer at one point about filing for divorce but was told he'd never get custody of his daughters because of what the courts at the time called "mother doctrine". So dad stayed, despite the fact that he felt absolutely helpless about being able to stop what was going on in the house. He did his best to instill in his daughters the right to defend ourselves. And he'd made it clear to us that he didn't have an issue with us telling the authorities "if these things are happening to you". And CPS did come into the picture on several occasions. The "family secret" did get told, but because it was the 70's and things were very different then; it was never "medically verified" and myself and my sisters had never been removed from the home. For me, the abuse stopped when I was 10 years old when I threatened to bite my brother's... body parts.

So in the wake of my mother's death. I learned to pray for wisdom and strength because I could not look at my infant son and not protect him as no one protected me. So I'd go visit dad when no one else was around and that was it.

Only a couple of years passed before dad died too and in the process of cleaning out the house, he'd found photos of underaged girls (whom neither dad or myself could identify) that had been taken by my brother in my parent's bedroom. We talked about taking the photos to the police. I think dad had a friend who'd given him some legal advice about the subject; and he put the photos in a safe deposit box with some other things he'd found (that I never saw) and instructed a friend of his who was in the legal field to retrieve the contents of this safe deposit box. (I'd found child inappropriate content in some of things my brother had left behind when he moved out. That may have been the other content of things dad put in the safe deposit box.

When dad had died, the safe deposit box had been emptied by someone who the family didn't know the identity of and the bank would not disclose because none of the family were named on the safe deposit box. I tried to track down who I thought it was. (I think I was correct in identifying the other party who had access to the box); but for "legal reasons" the person stated that they could not speak to me about anything my dad had disclosed, or given to them. I had contacted a police investigator about the photos. But because of the age of the photos and that we had no current victim to come forward; the police told me there wasn't anything they could do. We need a current victim.

So today, I pray that either one of my brother's daughters come forward; or that God just "take him out" by death, because at this point, it certainly doesn't look like my brother is going to genuinely repent of this. In the past, my brother had admitted to myself, dad and a therapist that he had indeed done the things that I'd accused him of; but he didn't see that there was anything wrong with that! The therapist was a bit shocked. She did call me the next day and I told her I was cutting off contact for the sake of my son's safety. My brother's oldest daughter is 6 months older than my son. The therapist should have called CPS (she was a mandated reporter); but I doubt she ever did.

I knew subsequently on the very few times after that that I've seen my niece; that she was being sexually abused. I knew that based on things that she would say to my brother. Yet, he is still not in prison.

At this point, his girls may have come forward and told their grandparents. I know their grandmother was suspicious because she'd heard about my having been hospitalized with PTSD because of sexual abuse; but it had never been disclosed to her who the abuser was.

Today, I believe both my nieces are living with their grandmother. Their grandfather died within the past couple of years. I think my brother and his wife have split up; but the girl's mom keeps trying to "fix the family issues" (without actually addressing what the family issues really are). Her way of "fixing the problem" is to say that anyone who accuses my brother of sexual abuse has "Borderline Personality Disorder". She knew about me, from when I was in the psych ward way back in 1998. At that time, she worked in that hospital on the child / adolescent psych ward; but later took a job in a halfway house for.... (get this) sex offenders.

I have one baby picture of my brother's first daughter. The second one was born after I exited the family. In that frame; I've put a copy of this picture: A friend of mine had given it to me for my son. I put the prayer card in the frame with my niece, because she needed that angel more than my son did! Because my son had a mom that was going to protect him!

Julianna's angel.jpg


So, (yes though I know this is a long story); there is where the decades of prayers in my own life still reside. I know eventually God will deal with my brother. I know this is true. I don't understand why this continues; but it does.

I pray a lot for wisdom. If my nieces are ever put in my path that I can help them some how. (They are both now adults.) I pray that God reveal to me how I can help them.

God's wisdom is above our wisdom. (Again, as I said I don't understand any of this.) But I trust in the sovereign will of His plan.

There are a lot of circumstances in life that we don't like. We're not commanded to like them. We are told to "cast all our cares on God for He cares for us".

My son has epilepsy and is considered developmentally disabled. How God is going to use my son despite these challenges; I have no idea. But I know God has a plan for his life too.

I recently played him this song:
And I pray this for my nieces too:


May you find peace for your situation.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I posted on this topic in another part of the forum, but didn’t find that the response really got to the heart of my question, so thought I would ask here to see what my Reformed brothers and sisters think. :)

I understand that there is a direct relationship between our prayers and God’s will. As John MacArthur has said, God uses our prayers as the means by which He achieves His will, so my question is, there’s something I’ve been praying about for a while now and while I’ve seen some answers I’ve also met a few roadblocks along the way. It seems confusing to get both yes and no answers about the same thing, and while my way is seemingly closed up for now, my heart still feels pulled in that direction and it feels wrong to give up on it and not pray about it. I know that sometimes God says “wait” and sometimes that can look a lot like a “no”. And sometimes He places obstacles to strengthen our faith (as He did with the Syro-Phoenician woman), but how do we determine which way to go when the place where we most want to be is closed off to us, at least for the moment?
At what point do we accept something as not being God’s will and move on versus continue to persevere in prayer because it just may not be His time?
I find myself curious as to your mindset or your assumptions concerning life, and particularly, concerning Christ and your life in him. It seems to me it is more important to him that you become what he had in mind for you from the beginning, than for you to see answered prayer, or more important even than for you to see in yourself some degree of maturity, obedience and Godliness or holiness. Ironically, in coming along with him, you will see growth and obedience and even answered prayer, but you come to recognize these as, or because, HE is the one doing them, and He is the reason they are done, and HE is the essence of the Christian life.

One of the agonizing facts of Grace is that Christ, almost happily, it sometimes seems, absorbs, or, swallows up our sin on our way to becoming what he created us for, (which includes not only the end result of becoming the particular member of the Bride of Christ each of us will be, but even in this temporal life, what he created us to go through). He doesn't even hold it against us or seem to particularly mind that we don't realize the extent to which he goes to do this! Perhaps he would say, that, were we to know all about it, the knowledge of it would kill us. Amazing Grace.

To me, it seems, you expect a certain thing, your focus is on it, but you may not even recognize that when you are given it, for the fact that so many other things necessarily come along with it; you may not even credit your prayers for it, for the unrecognizability of it as the answer to your prayers. We don't even know what we really want, but only what we see in our minds, but the Spirit of God knows, and prays for us with words that can't even be spoken. Our desires and concepts, even for holiness and that God's will be done, are silly, ignorant and presumptuous.
 
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Skye1300

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I posted on this topic in another part of the forum, but didn’t find that the response really got to the heart of my question, so thought I would ask here to see what my Reformed brothers and sisters think. :)

I understand that there is a direct relationship between our prayers and God’s will. As John MacArthur has said, God uses our prayers as the means by which He achieves His will, so my question is, there’s something I’ve been praying about for a while now and while I’ve seen some answers I’ve also met a few roadblocks along the way. It seems confusing to get both yes and no answers about the same thing, and while my way is seemingly closed up for now, my heart still feels pulled in that direction and it feels wrong to give up on it and not pray about it. I know that sometimes God says “wait” and sometimes that can look a lot like a “no”. And sometimes He places obstacles to strengthen our faith (as He did with the Syro-Phoenician woman), but how do we determine which way to go when the place where we most want to be is closed off to us, at least for the moment?
At what point do we accept something as not being God’s will and move on versus continue to persevere in prayer because it just may not be His time?

Never give up, look at Sarah, she was 90yrs old when God finally gave her a child. His timing is not our timing. One thing you can pray is that if it's not God's will then will He take away your desire for it. If the desire doesn't go away, then it's just not His time. :oldthumbsup:
 
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leothelioness

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Well, I've also heard (and you've probably heard this too) that prayer doesn't change God; it changes us!

There have been a lot of circumstances in my own life where if I prayed for a certain outcome, that outcome never came to fruition; or at least it never came to fruition in the way that I thought it should!

But I realized that if I prayed for God's will to be done (because I certainly had to admit that I didn't know what God's will was) then eventually I found the place that I could come to peace with what ever the outcome was. So eventually my prayers became ones for wisdom, than they became ones for outcomes. And I still pray that God give me strength to deal with whatever the outcome is; and what action should I take as I am inevitably part of that outcome. Because it's true; there are things that happen in this life that are just heartbreaking.

I've prayed for the salvation of family members who died in their sin. I prayed for at least a decade for my mother who was an alcoholic. She went to her grave shaking her fist at God and angry at the world because she was going to die.

Now I'm not the kind of person who "sees demons under every rock". I don't generally think (or worry) about the spiritual realm; but I do believe my mother was possessed by something. We found out about the beginning of April 2002 that she had lung cancer and her funeral was the first week in May of 2002. My son was only 3 months old. It was a very psychologically stressful time in my life.

Mom had gotten out of the hospital and I distinctly remember the first time I went to my parent's house after she was home. As soon as I opened the door; I felt this incredibly heavy oppression. That's never happened before and I've never felt it since. I'm not a "woo woo" looking for ghosts or demons type of person. But the first thought that came to mind was the book of Revelation. The lid of hell had been peeled back and all these demonic forces were spilling out into my parents' living room. I even (later when we were in the kitchen) asked my dad if he felt this presence too and he said "yes". Other family members described feeling the exact same thing. My one sister (who's very "ghost paranoid") didn't want to go in the house.

Mom though, had some REALLY twisted "dysfunctional" thinking and said some really strange and twisted things when she was drunk. (My brother is a pedophile and my mother was... somehow OK with that??) I don't understand that and it's not that mom couldn't admit that she knew morally that my brother's behavior was wrong. But in her eyes he was somehow worthy of getting what ever in life he thought or felt that he wanted or "needed". So that environment, for the dynamic of my entire life was the psychological environment of my family of origin.

My dad, who I saw as kind of like Lot stuck in the middle of Sodom; was not an immoral person. He certainly didn't have the same "illness" my brother had. But I found out a lot about my mother's side of the family from my dad after my mother died. Dad was psychologically tormented for decades. Mom had told dad that if he called the authorities or reported any of what my brother was doing that she'd tell the cops dad was the guilty party. Dad had told me that he talked to a lawyer at one point about filing for divorce but was told he'd never get custody of his daughters because of what the courts at the time called "mother doctrine". So dad stayed, despite the fact that he felt absolutely helpless about being able to stop what was going on in the house. He did his best to instill in his daughters the right to defend ourselves. And he'd made it clear to us that he didn't have an issue with us telling the authorities "if these things are happening to you". And CPS did come into the picture on several occasions. The "family secret" did get told, but because it was the 70's and things were very different then; it was never "medically verified" and myself and my sisters had never been removed from the home. For me, the abuse stopped when I was 10 years old when I threatened to bite my brother's... body parts.

So in the wake of my mother's death. I learned to pray for wisdom and strength because I could not look at my infant son and not protect him as no one protected me. So I'd go visit dad when no one else was around and that was it.

Only a couple of years passed before dad died too and in the process of cleaning out the house, he'd found photos of underaged girls (whom neither dad or myself could identify) that had been taken by my brother in my parent's bedroom. We talked about taking the photos to the police. I think dad had a friend who'd given him some legal advice about the subject; and he put the photos in a safe deposit box with some other things he'd found (that I never saw) and instructed a friend of his who was in the legal field to retrieve the contents of this safe deposit box. (I'd found child inappropriate content in some of things my brother had left behind when he moved out. That may have been the other content of things dad put in the safe deposit box.

When dad had died, the safe deposit box had been emptied by someone who the family didn't know the identity of and the bank would not disclose because none of the family were named on the safe deposit box. I tried to track down who I thought it was. (I think I was correct in identifying the other party who had access to the box); but for "legal reasons" the person stated that they could not speak to me about anything my dad had disclosed, or given to them. I had contacted a police investigator about the photos. But because of the age of the photos and that we had no current victim to come forward; the police told me there wasn't anything they could do. We need a current victim.

So today, I pray that either one of my brother's daughters come forward; or that God just "take him out" by death, because at this point, it certainly doesn't look like my brother is going to genuinely repent of this. In the past, my brother had admitted to myself, dad and a therapist that he had indeed done the things that I'd accused him of; but he didn't see that there was anything wrong with that! The therapist was a bit shocked. She did call me the next day and I told her I was cutting off contact for the sake of my son's safety. My brother's oldest daughter is 6 months older than my son. The therapist should have called CPS (she was a mandated reporter); but I doubt she ever did.

I knew subsequently on the very few times after that that I've seen my niece; that she was being sexually abused. I knew that based on things that she would say to my brother. Yet, he is still not in prison.

At this point, his girls may have come forward and told their grandparents. I know their grandmother was suspicious because she'd heard about my having been hospitalized with PTSD because of sexual abuse; but it had never been disclosed to her who the abuser was.

Today, I believe both my nieces are living with their grandmother. Their grandfather died within the past couple of years. I think my brother and his wife have split up; but the girl's mom keeps trying to "fix the family issues" (without actually addressing what the family issues really are). Her way of "fixing the problem" is to say that anyone who accuses my brother of sexual abuse has "Borderline Personality Disorder". She knew about me, from when I was in the psych ward way back in 1998. At that time, she worked in that hospital on the child / adolescent psych ward; but later took a job in a halfway house for.... (get this) sex offenders.

I have one baby picture of my brother's first daughter. The second one was born after I exited the family. In that frame; I've put a copy of this picture: A friend of mine had given it to me for my son. I put the prayer card in the frame with my niece, because she needed that angel more than my son did! Because my son had a mom that was going to protect him!

View attachment 318930

So, (yes though I know this is a long story); there is where the decades of prayers in my own life still reside. I know eventually God will deal with my brother. I know this is true. I don't understand why this continues; but it does.

I pray a lot for wisdom. If my nieces are ever put in my path that I can help them some how. (They are both now adults.) I pray that God reveal to me how I can help them.

God's wisdom is above our wisdom. (Again, as I said I don't understand any of this.) But I trust in the sovereign will of His plan.

There are a lot of circumstances in life that we don't like. We're not commanded to like them. We are told to "cast all our cares on God for He cares for us".

My son has epilepsy and is considered developmentally disabled. How God is going to use my son despite these challenges; I have no idea. But I know God has a plan for his life too.

I recently played him this song:
And I pray this for my nieces too:


May you find peace for your situation.
Thank you, brother.
Yes, I have most definitely seen how the Lord has changed me through this. I have grown more spiritually from this than I think anything else I have been through and I am not without gratefulness to Him for that!! Praise Him!

I am so sorry you have been through all that. I know it is hard and I too have family members who are not saved and it burdens my heart. But the Lord is gracious to use even these things to bring us closer to Him.

God bless you!
 
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leothelioness

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I find myself curious as to your mindset or your assumptions concerning life, and particularly, concerning Christ and your life in him. It seems to me it is more important to him that you become what he had in mind for you from the beginning, than for you to see answered prayer, or more important even than for you to see in yourself some degree of maturity, obedience and Godliness or holiness. Ironically, in coming along with him, you will see growth and obedience and even answered prayer, but you come to recognize these as, or because, HE is the one doing them, and He is the reason they are done, and HE is the essence of the Christian life.

One of the agonizing facts of Grace is that Christ, almost happily, it sometimes seems, absorbs, or, swallows up our sin on our way to becoming what he created us for, (which includes not only the end result of becoming the particular member of the Bride of Christ each of us will be, but even in this temporal life, what he created us to go through). He doesn't even hold it against us or seem to particularly mind that we don't realize the extent to which he goes to do this! Perhaps he would say, that, were we to know all about it, the knowledge of it would kill us. Amazing Grace.

To me, it seems, you expect a certain thing, your focus is on it, but you may not even recognize that when you are given it, for the fact that so many other things necessarily come along with it; you may not even credit your prayers for it, for the unrecognizability of it as the answer to your prayers. We don't even know what we really want, but only what we see in our minds, but the Spirit of God knows, and prays for us with words that can't even be spoken. Our desires and concepts, even for holiness and that God's will be done, are silly, ignorant and presumptuous.
Amen! I am of the mind that it is not about having our prayers answered, but about God’s will being done. I want nothing other than that. It’s just that sometimes it’s hard to tell if what we’re praying for is something that God wants for us or if it’s just a really strong desire that we have.

I always ask the Lord to place His desires on my heart and conform my desires to His will. I also keep in mind what both R.C. Sproul and John MacArthur have said about praying specifically, so I make my prayers as specific as possible and indeed the Lord has been more than gracious to answer many of them.

Thank you so much for your godly wisdom, brother.
 
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leothelioness

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I cannot think of any time that Jesus told us not to pray or to stop praying so I would continue God moves on His own schedule but He always get things done on time.

Luke 18:1 (NLT) One day Jesus told his disciples a story to show that they should always pray and never give up.

I'd say pray about it every day for the rest of your life if it really means something to you. I'd go even so far as to say the amount of energy and time you spend praying over something has a direct correlation to how much it means to you. And if it means something to you, as God's child, you can be sure it means something to Him and His response is never far away.

Never give up, look at Sarah, she was 90yrs old when God finally gave her a child. His timing is not our timing. One thing you can pray is that if it's not God's will then will He take away your desire for it. If the desire doesn't go away, then it's just not His time. :oldthumbsup:
Amen!

Thank you all!

God bless!
 
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