is hell eternal or temporary

[SeventhValley]

no it doesn't. you are factoring out the possibility that people may never want the mercy that God offers. so God does not keep them in hell, it is their will that is set against Him, and not the other way around.

we often think that the sinners in hell realize how bad it sucks, and they want out, and God says no. when in fact, it is God who asks if they have had enough, and they are the ones who say no.

I hope this or universal reconciliation are true.

 

[~Anastasia~]

no it doesn't. you are factoring out the possibility that people may never want the mercy that God offers. so God does not keep them in hell, it is their will that is set against Him, and not the other way around.

we often think that the sinners in hell realize how bad it sucks, and they want out, and God says no. when in fact, it is God who asks if they have had enough, and they are the ones who say no.

This is so hard for me to understand, but I have in fact spoken to people who hate God so much (or claim to) that they willing CHOOSE eternal torment rather than to be reconciled with Him.

I really, really cannot understand that, and before I met people who proclaimed exactly that, I would have assumed everyone would want to be saved once they understood the reality and the options.

Just as I cannot understand willful apostasy. I can see how a person can lose faith, but how they can go from loving God to still believing in Him but actively hating Him - I just cannot fathom.

There seems to be a strong demonic influence in such cases. Which is the only way it begins to make any sense at all. I can imagine the demons hate God, so perhaps they can spread that to humans.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

no it doesn't. you are factoring out the possibility that people may never want the mercy that God offers. so God does not keep them in hell, it is their will that is set against Him, and not the other way around.

we often think that the sinners in hell realize how bad it sucks, and they want out, and God says no. when in fact, it is God who asks if they have had enough, and they are the ones who say no.

This reminds me C. S. Lewis' The Great Divorce. Awesome little book.

Mary

 

[Gxg (G²)]

you are factoring out the possibility that people may never want the mercy that God offers. so God does not keep them in hell, it is their will that is set against Him, and not the other way around.

we often think that the sinners in hell realize how bad it sucks, and they want out, and God says no. when in fact, it is God who asks if they have had enough, and they are the ones who say no.

That's the way that I was told to view it when it comes to the Church Fathers and the Scriptures - God is love and the most loving thing He can do for those who reject Him is to let them have their way outside of Him .....them choosing to stay away. But at the end of the day, it is a blessing that the Eastern view that exalts the triumph of the fact that God is truly Love - and His love caused Him to die for the world (even though all the other religions of the world asked their followers to alone die for their gods) and give hope for all - even those who may have died rejecting Him..

Love Wins - An Orthodox View - YouTube

• What is Orthodox Hell?

Fr. Thomas Hopko (as seen here and here)did some good presentations on the matter...for Christ is our Atonement - how far that atonement goes, of course, is another issue of debate all together and there are a myriad of differing perspectives on the issue..... Kallistos Ware doing an excellent discussion on the issue in “Dare We Hope for the Salvation of All" and the thoughts of some of the Fathers such as St Isaac the Syrian who shared on God's Extensive Love...

C.S. Lewis' said it well when noting "The gates of hell are locked from the inside".

Both the righteous and the unrighteous are in the presence of God but being in the presence of God while willingly choosing to reject him DOES not have to mean that one cannot eventually choose the Lord. For if someone were to relent, give in and accept God's love, the torment cease and God's presence become bliss like what the righteous experience.

And yet, what we do in this life will determine what we end up going for in the next. For in this life, if we choose not to love the Lord, we eventually harden ourselves to even having a desire to choose Him - and thus, we must train ourselves in this life to Love God so that we'll be ready for Life in the next when we are further purified. Fr. John Behr did an excellent presentation on the matter that discussed the issue of why it was important that Christ died - His death connected to how His life was an example of what God was wanting and felt important:

Fr. John Behr - Death - The Final Frontier - YouTube

Of course we know that claiming that hell "will be" emptied is an anathematized heresy...

"To those who reject the immortality of the soul, the end of time, the future judgment, and eternal reward for virtue and condemnation for sin, Anathema!"

And even Metropolitan Kallistos (who is sometimes quoted to defend apocatastasis), admits that fact: "It is heretical to say that all must be saved, for this is to deny free will; but it is legitimate to hope that all may be saved."

Nonetheless, others in the history of the Church have advocated apocatastasis (Origen's teaching, at least in his younger speculative days) and other things directly in line with what C.S Lewis noted when it comes to Hell being optional/based on choice (as he said the doors of Hell are locked from the inside rather than from the outside - more discussed here in #1/#14 ).


And with God's nature being love (I John 4) - love that GAVE itself for the world (John 3:15-18) as well as those of who were elect (I John 5) - it seems God would be the one to examine and part of examination is understand His right to not make sense when it comes to both His Mercy (Matthew 20) and the dynamic of why Hell may not be eternal for others and yet lasting for some. God doesn't have to make sense since he made sense....the Mercy of God is a complicated and nuanced matter - as said best on Ancient Faith Radio on salvation (similar to conversations from before here, here, here and here/ here ).

 

[ArmyMatt]

I hope this or universal reconciliation are true.

that's what the Church teaches as far as I know. St Maximos the Confessor states that it is like the same sun will both harden clay and melt butter. it is the nature of what is in the sun that determines what happens. so for someone who is eternally unrepentant, God's love torments them, and not because of who God is, but who they chose to remain.

 

[ArmyMatt]

This is so hard for me to understand, but I have in fact spoken to people who hate God so much (or claim to) that they willing CHOOSE eternal torment rather than to be reconciled with Him.

I really, really cannot understand that, and before I met people who proclaimed exactly that, I would have assumed everyone would want to be saved once they understood the reality and the options.

Just as I cannot understand willful apostasy. I can see how a person can lose faith, but how they can go from loving God to still believing in Him but actively hating Him - I just cannot fathom.

There seems to be a strong demonic influence in such cases. Which is the only way it begins to make any sense at all. I can imagine the demons hate God, so perhaps they can spread that to humans.

well, I think we should certainly pray and hope for universal restoration and the salvation of all.

as far as not seeing it, I would point out Adam and Eve had every joy in the Garden, but when God confronted them they refused to repent. the Israelites had just come through the Red Sea, watched the Egyptians drown, saw the glory of God on the Mountain, and still worshipped the golden calf. the Apostles were with Christ through every miracle, and yet they all abandoned Him, Peter denied Him, and Judas betrayed Him.

human history is full of willful apostasy.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think you are looking at it from the wrong perspective. God isn't punishing anyone. People make the choice in their lives to love God and follow Him or they reject Him (which is another subject that is more detailed than just that one comment). When we depart this earth, we are in His presence because He is everywhere and in all things, so therefore, one cannot escape the feeling of His Love and Light, which, as others have said, feels different depending on one's heart's disposition of God.

How our hearts are will alter what our perception and thus choices will be..

"We all receive God's blessings equally. But some of us, receiving God's fire, that is, His word, become soft like beeswax, while the others like clay become hard as stone. And if we do not want Him, He does not force any of us, but like the sun He sends His rays and illuminates the whole world, and he who wants to see Him, sees Him, whereas the one who does not want to see Him, is not forced by Him. And no one is responsible for this privation of light except the one who does not want to have it....."


~Saint Peter the Damascene​

 

[~Anastasia~]

well, I think we should certainly pray and hope for universal restoration and the salvation of all.

as far as not seeing it, I would point out Adam and Eve had every joy in the Garden, but when God confronted them they refused to repent. the Israelites had just come through the Red Sea, watched the Egyptians drown, saw the glory of God on the Mountain, and still worshipped the golden calf. the Apostles were with Christ through every miracle, and yet they all abandoned Him, Peter denied Him, and Judas betrayed Him.

human history is full of willful apostasy.

You know, you are right.

I wonder if Adam and Eve could have repented. But the situation with the Israelites and the golden calf was completely incomprehensible to me when I first thought deeply about it. I puzzled over it for about three days, then God made me aware of something very sobering - which is that I am essentially no different from them.

I had in mind those persons I have spoken to who acknowledge God, and perhaps knew him in some degree, to hear them tell it, and yet reject and appear to hate him.

That is still very hard to understand, but I suppose it is no different from the rescued Israelites. As I said, very sobering.

And I suppose the reason I can accept and consider a warning the fact that Orthodoxy does not say "we are saved" and stop there, but keep in mind that we hope in eventual, eternal salvation.

It is such a change from what I was once taught, but it was also what most disturbed me about seeming to be at variance with Scripture.

Thank you for pointing this out, and reminding me, Matt.

 

[ArmyMatt]

there was some Church Father (I cannot remember his name), but he pointed out that even while the Eucharist is still in our mouth, we are sinning.

I wonder if Adam and Eve could have repented.

oh they absolutely could have. when God asked where they were, He was asking in relation to Him, not asking because they were hiding. at that moment they could have begged His mercy, but didn't. it's like Judas in the Garden when Christ asks if he would betray the Son of Man with a kiss. that was Christ offering Judas a chance to repent.