Is By grace through faith a good work?

[rturner76]

As a Wesleyan we believe that we are saved by grace through faith.

Prevenient grace was the theological underpinning of his belief that all persons were capable of being saved by faith in Christ.

He understood that Christian orthodoxy insisted that salvation was only possible by the sovereign grace of God. He expressed his understanding of humanity's relationship to God as utter dependence upon God's grace. God was at work to enable all people to be capable of coming to faith by empowering humans to have actual existential freedom of response to God. (Wikipedia)

Wesley taught that sanctification was obtainable after justification by faith, between justification and death.


The question the becomes what is faith then? Is faith an action? If faith is an action is it considered a good work? So is he then saying in another way that wae are saved by our works? Are we saved by what we do or by grace? Here it says we are saved by grace but in order to activate that salvation, we must have faith that the grace is sufficient?

Aren't we just saved by grace period? Saved by grace THROUGH faith? Is that saved by works?

Let's discuss/debate.


I should probably assume that since we are all of Wesleyan theology, it won't be a long debate but I thought I'd see if this gets it going.

 

[Lee52]

As a Wesleyan we believe that we are saved by grace through faith.

Prevenient grace was the theological underpinning of his belief that all persons were capable of being saved by faith in Christ.

He understood that Christian orthodoxy insisted that salvation was only possible by the sovereign grace of God. He expressed his understanding of humanity's relationship to God as utter dependence upon God's grace. God was at work to enable all people to be capable of coming to faith by empowering humans to have actual existential freedom of response to God. (Wikipedia)

Wesley taught that sanctification was obtainable after justification by faith, between justification and death.


The question the becomes what is faith then? Is faith an action? If faith is an action is it considered a good work? So is he then saying in another way that wae are saved by our works? Are we saved by what we do or by grace? Here it says we are saved by grace but in order to activate that salvation, we must have faith that the grace is sufficient?

Aren't we just saved by grace period? Saved by grace THROUGH faith? Is that saved by works?

Let's discuss/debate.


I should probably assume that since we are all of Wesleyan theology, it won't be a long debate but I thought I'd see if this gets it going.

The very simple answer to the base question: NO.
Further explanation: Grace is extended by GOD through Christ Jesus' death on the cross as payment in full for the cost of sin upon us, IF we accept that payment on our behalf.

Example: Congregation has a man with wife and 3 girl children that just lost his job and is unemployed past his unemployment benefits. I.e. NO income. Congregation takes up collection for him and his family and buys groceries and offers to pay his bills and mortgage, not as a loan, but as a free gift.
1) Man accepts free gift and is provided for by congregation until he is once again employed and earning for his family's needs.
2) Man refuses the free gift, loses his house, lives in city homeless shelter for men, family wife and daughters live in women's shelter, family eats all meals at street kitchen with the homeless. Man becomes distraught and commits suicide leaving nothing to his family.

In both cases, the free gift was there and available to him. He had a choice to accept it or not. Neither of which were works on his part, they were merely decisions. In both cases, he had faith in either his congregation or in man's charity. In the case of his congregation, his faith was rewarded by providing for his family until he was able to once again do so. In the case of faith in man's charity, he lost all hope and left nothing to provide for his family.

We are saved by GRACE, through faith in Jesus. By no means, works.
A free gift from GOD to us that is sitting there waiting to be accepted. It is the difference between potential energy and kenetic energy.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[pilgrim42]

As a Wesleyan we believe that we are saved by grace through faith.

Prevenient grace was the theological underpinning of his belief that all persons were capable of being saved by faith in Christ.

He understood that Christian orthodoxy insisted that salvation was only possible by the sovereign grace of God. He expressed his understanding of humanity's relationship to God as utter dependence upon God's grace. God was at work to enable all people to be capable of coming to faith by empowering humans to have actual existential freedom of response to God. (Wikipedia)

Wesley taught that sanctification was obtainable after justification by faith, between justification and death.


The question the becomes what is faith then? Is faith an action? If faith is an action is it considered a good work? So is he then saying in another way that wae are saved by our works? Are we saved by what we do or by grace? Here it says we are saved by grace but in order to activate that salvation, we must have faith that the grace is sufficient?

Aren't we just saved by grace period? Saved by grace THROUGH faith? Is that saved by works?

Let's discuss/debate.


I should probably assume that since we are all of Wesleyan theology, it won't be a long debate but I thought I'd see if this gets it going.

I think we have to define our terms. If works entails any effort that we do, then i guess making a decision to have faith in Christ is a work. It is, however, a necessary work. All other efforts to be saved are useless. I don't see that having faith is on the same scale as feeding the homeless in order to attain favor with God.

We could also ask the same question regarding sancification. Do we receive sanctification by faith, or do we have to do some works first? Sanctification involved dying out to our selves. Is self crucifixion work? Isn't it on the same level as contrition, and repentance before salvation? If we are talking about works here, then certainly these are works of faith that God requires. I better stop before I get over my head.

Ken

 

[rturner76]

Yes, it reminds me of the famous verse "Faith without works is dead" If you do have faith, how do we know it? We know it by your actions. Certainly someone with faith in the one true and living God would not be raping and pillaging village after village conquering and enslaving all in his path. If this same person says "I have faith" and they may well have it, is that faith justified? If not, how can we say salvation in not found in works?

I'm not trying to prove one point or the other. I just wanted to discuss this subject openly among like minded Wesleyans. We can agree that we are save by grace through faith but what does the really mean? Is the OP making the topic more complicated that it really is?

 

[Stefan P]

I think if you take the path that faith is itself a work, then you eventually run into Catholicism. If you take the path that we are saved by no means of our own (including faith) then you eventually run into Calvinism. The scripture says "By grace we are saved", if this is prevenient grace then how can we avoid predestination and Calvin? Or should we ... ?

 

[rturner76]

I've run in to this line of thinking and instead of ending up with Calvinism where there is an elect and non elect, I ended up with universalism.

My mother is a Universalist, she's not in their church but she believes as they do. The sacrifice has been made for all and is sufficent for all and surpasses even our need to have faith in it. I want to believe that and deep deep down in my heart I must admit that belief or I should say my belief in that possibility is a strong one. It's just that there is no church on Earth that believes this but the Unitarian Universalist. So by the wisdom of the crowd, even though I believe in that as a possibility, I don't preach that as the gospel. As you can see you bring up a fine point though.

 

[Lee52]

Brothers, I think we have all run up against the doctrinal debates of which you speak.

In my own life, I know I did.

Let me see if I can add clarity of the subject the way it made/makes sense to me......

I am saved by GOD's grace=free gift=nothing I do can ever deserve it=yet GOD gave it to me for free because of His love for me. GOD paid the price for my familial sinful choices as a human being with free will to rebel against GOD, my Creator that made me in His image with choices. I have an inheritance from Him because that is the way He designed the universe. If I never accept the inheritance, even though it is always there, I cannot partake of my inheritance. Acceptance is not a work, it is an acquiescing to GOD's will for us. It is surrender to His will not ours. And how do I acquire that inheritance? THROUGH Faith in Jesus' sacrifice on my behalf. Not a work, a surrender.

Once I surrendered to His will, He began to change my heart. As He changed my heart, I desired to learn more about Him and began to read His Word. As I began to read His Word, I began to hunger for understanding of His Word. As I read His Word for understanding, He began to renew my mind THROUGH that reading. The only "work" involved is opening the Bible and reading.

Now, once I surrendered and read for understanding and allowed GOD to renew=change my mind, I began to desire to do what I was reading.

So, my faith=surrender to GOD's will, caused me to read His Word, which caused me to want to do good works because He changed my mind about life and people and relationships. The only "work" to salvation and sanctification is surrender. That surrender takes time to totally take place. I have been a born-again Christian for several years. The man I am today does not resemble the man that surrendered my heart to GOD through acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice on my behalf. AND, AND, I have a long, long way to go before I consider myself to be totally sanctified. Because, as I surrender more of self to GOD, the darker my sins look to me. The more I see what "a wretched man that I am", the more the Holy Spirit is able to do in my life. The more the Holy Spirit is able to do in my life, the more I am able to surrender to GOD. The more I am able to surrender to GOD, the more I begin to look like Christ Jesus my Lord and Savior. The more I begin to look like my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the more sanctified I become as an image bearer of Jesus.

So far, I have not even done one good work in the process. All I did was surrender. And as I surrender, I begin to enjoy doing good works. I do them not FOR salvation, but BECAUSE OF salvation.

So, am I a Roman Catholic? No.
Am I a Calvinist? Absolutely NOT.

Enter Arminius and then refine Arminius' teaching by Wesley, which was refined by Winebrenner, which was refined by D.S. Warner, and here I am.

Salvation is BY grace, THROUGH faith in Jesus, nothing I do, so I cannot boast about it. The only part I have in my salvation is acceptance. The only part I have in my sanctification is surrender. Jesus is my PERFECT example. Paul and the other followers of Jesus in the 1st century, that wrote letters and texts, remind me of my human existence in a sinful body inhabited now by a perfectly forgiven spirit made alive by Jesus' sacrifice on my behalf.

I am reminded daily that I am not to fret about this condition daily because I was purchased from sin with a very great and perfect price paid in full for me. I have been crucified with Christ. Never the less, I live, yet not I, but Christ Jesus living in me. For the life I now live in the flesh, I live by my faith in the Son of GOD, who loved me and gave Himself for me. (paraphrased from memory, I might have missed some words). Because of this, there is therefore now, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I am in Christ Jesus and He is in me, therefore:

"I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

"Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?"


The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain."

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[Lee52]

Sorry brothers, As I read back through that, it sounded like a sermon, not a discussion. For that forgive me. I did not mean to preach at you or anyone else.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[GadFly]

Brothers, I think we have all run up against the doctrinal debates of which you speak.

In my own life, I know I did.

Let me see if I can add clarity of the subject the way it made/makes sense to me......

I am saved by GOD's grace=free gift=nothing I do can ever deserve it=yet GOD gave it to me for free because of His love for me. GOD paid the price for my familial sinful choices as a human being with free will to rebel against GOD, my Creator that made me in His image with choices. I have an inheritance from Him because that is the way He designed the universe. If I never accept the inheritance, even though it is always there, I cannot partake of my inheritance. Acceptance is not a work, it is an acquiescing to GOD's will for us. It is surrender to His will not ours. And how do I acquire that inheritance? THROUGH Faith in Jesus' sacrifice on my behalf. Not a work, a surrender.

Acceptance is not enough. Grace is free as you point out but helplessness is not part of God's plan for us. To accept whatever may come is not an active faith. God is an active God and He requires action on our part. The Bible teaches that God brought Israel under Moses out of Egypt "harnessed" where Israel had little choice but to follow the fire by knight and cloud by day. But God did not influence them enough to cross over the river Jordan into the Promised Land. To be utterly saved, you must do the fundamental works of following God with repentance daily. You can not take hold of the plow, turn back, and be fit for the Kingdom of God.

Heb:37: Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8: Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10: Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11: So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12: Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13: But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14: For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15: While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16: For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17: But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18: And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19: So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Once I surrendered to His will, He began to change my heart. As He changed my heart, I desired to learn more about Him and began to read His Word. As I began to read His Word, I began to hunger for understanding of His Word. As I read His Word for understanding, He began to renew my mind THROUGH that reading. The only "work" involved is opening the Bible and reading.

Now, once I surrendered and read for understanding and allowed GOD to renew=change my mind, I began to desire to do what I was reading.

So, my faith=surrender to GOD's will, caused me to read His Word, which caused me to want to do good works because He changed my mind about life and people and relationships. The only "work" to salvation and sanctification is surrender. That surrender takes time to totally take place. I have been a born-again Christian for several years. The man I am today does not resemble the man that surrendered my heart to GOD through acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice on my behalf. AND, AND, I have a long, long way to go before I consider myself to be totally sanctified. Because, as I surrender more of self to GOD, the darker my sins look to me. The more I see what "a wretched man that I am", the more the Holy Spirit is able to do in my life. The more the Holy Spirit is able to do in my life, the more I am able to surrender to GOD. The more I am able to surrender to GOD, the more I begin to look like Christ Jesus my Lord and Savior. The more I begin to look like my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the more sanctified I become as an image bearer of Jesus.

Surrender to helplessness is not enough."The only "work" to salvation and sanctification is surrender."We need to think about this reasoning a long time before accepting it as gospel.

So far, I have not even done one good work in the process. All I did was surrender. And as I surrender, I begin to enjoy doing good works. I do them not FOR salvation, but BECAUSE OF salvation.

Faith, is that a good work? Have we not all done this good work? (1Thes:1:3).

So, am I a Roman Catholic? No.
Am I a Calvinist? Absolutely NOT.

Enter Arminius and then refine Arminius' teaching by Wesley, which was refined by Winebrenner, which was refined by D.S. Warner, and here I am.

Salvation is BY grace, THROUGH faith in Jesus, nothing I do, so I cannot boast about it. The only part I have in my salvation is acceptance. The only part I have in my sanctification is surrender. Jesus is my PERFECT example. Paul and the other followers of Jesus in the 1st century, that wrote letters and texts, remind me of my human existence in a sinful body inhabited now by a perfectly forgiven spirit made alive by Jesus' sacrifice on my behalf.

Are we saying here that we can not work out our salvation with fear and trembling? If we can work out our salvation, all the above is greatly in doubt.

I am reminded daily that I am not to fret about this condition daily because I was purchased from sin with a very great and perfect price paid in full for me. I have been crucified with Christ. Never the less, I live, yet not I, but Christ Jesus living in me. For the life I now live in the flesh, I live by my faith in the Son of GOD, who loved me and gave Himself for me. (paraphrased from memory, I might have missed some words). Because of this, there is therefore now, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I am in Christ Jesus and He is in me, therefore:

Is something missing here? Where the action of confession and repentance?

"I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

But all this is for those who confess and repent daily, not for those who look back. It is simply not that easy. If it were that easy, the way and the gate would be very broad and not narrow at all.

"Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?"


The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain."

To me the greatness of your post is where you say:"be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain."

Be blessed by stepping over the River Jordan.

 

[Lovely Lane]

Hi All

Hopefully my question is not off topic.

Is accepting the free gift classed as a 'work' ? I would say no but I would like to hear other views on this.

I don't understand how it can be considered work.
The Jews were way to legalistic, and doing much of anything but breathing was considered work on the sabbath.
Guess who it is who defines work determines the answer to the question.

 

[Lee52]

Guess who it is who defines work determines the answer to the question.

Here are One man's answers:

He went on from there and entered their synagogue. And a man was there with a withered hand. And they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"— so that they might accuse him. He said to them, "Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out? Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." And the man stretched it out, and it was restored, healthy like the other. Matthew 12:9-13 ESV

Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there with a withered hand. And they watched Jesus, to see whether he would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse him. And he said to the man with the withered hand, "Come here." And he said to them, "Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent. And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. Mark 3:1-5 ESV

On another Sabbath, he entered the synagogue and was teaching, and a man was there whose right hand was withered. And the scribes and the Pharisees watched him, to see whether he would heal on the Sabbath, so that they might find a reason to accuse him. But he knew their thoughts, and he said to the man with the withered hand, "Come and stand here." And he rose and stood there. And Jesus said to them, "I ask you, is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to destroy it?" And after looking around at them all he said to him, "Stretch out your hand." And he did so, and his hand was restored. Luke 6:6-10 ESV

One Sabbath, when he went to dine at the house of a ruler of the Pharisees, they were watching him carefully. And behold, there was a man before him who had dropsy. And Jesus responded to the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath, or not?" But they remained silent. Then he took him and healed him and sent him away. And he said to them, "Which of you, having a son or an ox that has fallen into a well on a Sabbath day, will not immediately pull him out?" And they could not reply to these things. Luke 14:1-6 ESV


Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, in Aramaic called Bethesda, which has five roofed colonnades. In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and paralyzed. One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, "Do you want to be healed?" The sick man answered him, "Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me." Jesus said to him, "Get up, take up your bed, and walk." And at once the man was healed, and he took up his bed and walked.
Now that day was the Sabbath. So the Jews said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to take up your bed." But he answered them, "The man who healed me, that man said to me, 'Take up your bed, and walk.'" They asked him, "Who is the man who said to you, 'Take up your bed and walk'?" Now the man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, as there was a crowd in the place. Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you." The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had healed him. And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." John 5:2-17 ESV

 

[Walter Kovacs]

Hi All

Hopefully my question is not off topic.

Is accepting the free gift classed as a 'work' ? I would say no but I would like to hear other views on this.

Not when the very act of 'accepting,' is in itself a choice wrought in God.

 

[file13]

Aren't we just saved by grace period? Saved by grace THROUGH faith? Is that saved by works?

Howdy all! I'm lurking and enjoying this discussion (great topic!), but I wonder if the question needs to take into account the issue of losing salvation? I.e. do you guys think that faith becomes "more work like" if you don't believe in eternal security or "once saved always saved?"

It seems like it's one thing to say faith is not a work if justification is a once and for all event, but if you can later lose it, dosen't this make the maintenance of faith a kind of work?

I'm not hear to debate, but just honestly interested in your opinions. Thanks all!

 

[Walter Kovacs]

Disclaimer: I'm not a Methodist, but I do consider myself a Wesleyan in quite a few ways.

It seems like it's one thing to say faith is not a work if justification is a once and for all event, but if you can later lose it, dosen't this make the maintenance of faith a kind of work?

In a way yes, in a way no. No, in that our works don't contribute to our salvation - we aren't saved by anything we do. Salvation is God's grace, period. However, our faith is judged by our works - that's biblical. Good works don't just happen, otherwise it wouldn't make sense for so much of the NT to contain exhortations to keep doing good works, to keep striving, to keep struggling. If good works just sort of happened because we are saved, wouldn't we just wait for them to happen?

I don't really view salvation or faith as something I own, though. so logically, I don't view it as something I can lose. I do firmly believe that salvation is a process - a process that involves cooperation with the Holy Spirit. I'm firmly Wesleyan in that I believe in a 'freed will,' - a freedom which enables me to choose to cooperate with God's grace.

Here's a section from one of Wesleys sermons on grace:

7. Secondly, God worketh in you; therefore you must work: You must be "workers together with him," (they are the very words of the Apostle,) otherwise he will cease working. The general rule on which his gracious dispensations invariably proceed is this: "Unto him that hath shall be given; but from him that hath not," -- that does not improve the grace already given, -- "shall be taken away what he assuredly hath." (So the words ought to be rendered.) Even St. Augustine, who is generally supposed to favour the contrary doctrine, makes that just remark, Qui fecit nos sine nobis, non salvabit nos sine nobis: "He that made us without ourselves, will not save us without ourselves." He will not save us unless we "save ourselves from this untoward generation;" unless we ourselves "fight the good fight of faith, and lay hold on eternal life; "unless we "agonize to enter in at the strait gate," "deny ourselves, and take up our cross daily," and labour by every possible means to "make our own calling and election sure."

http://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/t...n/sermon-85-on-working-out-our-own-salvation/

This isn't a great reply - but it's only my initial thoughts. Once we get more into dialogue I'll sharpen some details more.

 

[jacks]

Many great points on an interesting subject. I have to ask though, is it possible to have faith and not at least attempt to have good works? If so then how is the faith manifest? Or is it just something one feels but will not/can not act upon?

 

[file13]

Disclaimer: I'm not a Methodist, but I do consider myself a Wesleyan in quite a few ways...This isn't a great reply - but it's only my initial thoughts. Once we get more into dialogue I'll sharpen some details more.

Thanks brother for the response! Looking forward to others if other folks like.

I'll also check out the sermon when I have some time. Don't suppose you know of any good and free mobi/kindle formatted works of Wesley?

 

[rturner76]

Can you get Google books? I found a bunch of his work in there and it's f-f-f-free! His brother CHarles was quite the Hymnist (if that's a word) and poet. I was reading a book, I don't know if it was from him or came later but it has a good daily saying of his about a Bible verse, a stanza of poetry by his brother and said Bible verse. It's called:

Mottoes of Methodism: from the prose writings of Rev. John Wesley and the poetical writings of Rev. Charles Wesley, with Scripture texts for every day in the year

John Wesley, Charles Wesley, Jesse T. Whitely
Philips & Hunt, 1883 - Religion - 187 pages

Very nice and uplifting. He seems like he would have been a good Pastor. I know he is this great theologian and on and on but I can see that he seemd to have a talend for telling people what God saying to us through his son and through his son's disciples. Cool stuff! None of that name it claim it fast food theology.

 

[Lovely Lane]

file 13, could you make your signature font size a little more intrusive, please?

 

[file13]

Can you get Google books? I found a bunch of his work in there and it's f-f-f-free! His brother CHarles was quite the Hymnist (if that's a word) and poet.

Thanks, I'll have a look and see what they have. Yup, I think we're all familiar with Charles' hymns.

 

[file13]

file 13, could you make your signature font size a little more intrusive, please?

Nope, this is as big and as obnoxious as it gets.