Is belief enough to be saved?

[B-74]

I think that maybe we are just debating the difference between apples and oranges. Everyone agrees that no man can boast in anything except the Lord and His righteousness, only the Lord can we boast in, and everyone agrees that we should do good works in His name. Whats the problem then? I don't know.

 

[B-74]

Are apples and oranges both good fruit? One man does good works because he has compassion and wants to ease the suffering of others, another man does them because he wants to obey God and abide in the Lord, so that the Lord will manifest himself in that mans heart and help him learn to have compassion also, neither man is boasting. And some men may bear both fruits at the same time. Is one fruit evil and the other good? Or are they both good fruit?

 

[squint]

Are apples and oranges both good fruit? One man does good works because he has compassion and wants to ease the suffering of others, another man does them because he wants to obey God and abide in the Lord, so that the Lord will manifest himself in that mans heart and help him learn to have compassion also, neither man is boasting. And some men may bear both fruits at the same time. Is one fruit evil and the other good? Or are they both good fruit?

Any believer who reads Matt. 25 and has not figured out that they personally do both goat works and sheep works is deceived.

s

 

[Albion]

I wonder if its more of a misunderstanding that isn't as big a problem as we think. I wonder, as long as one knows that they can never boast in anything and also that good works done in Jesus name is a good thing, does any other misunderstanding they may have about works and salvation really matter? The fact that we must do good works and can never boast in them is the most important thing we must understand. I wonder if and how the act of purposly choosing to do good works helps us abide in Christ.

I'd agree with you to a certain extent, but the concept of man being saved completely apart from our "good deeds" is at the heart of the Gospel. That's the rub.

If it were a simpler and less critical issue, let's say whether or not there is a Purgatory, it wouldn't be so important. This, however, is as basic to our religion as anything. True Christianity is different from all other of the world's religions for NOT positing that we will be rewarded in the afterlife because we flattered the gods or the cosmos.

I'm just saying that this is why the definition of these terms and how they interact, if they do, is something that we can't just pass off as less important than doing good because God, obviously, wants us to.

 

[Nanopants]

I think that maybe we are just debating the difference between apples and oranges. Everyone agrees that no man can boast in anything except the Lord and His righteousness, only the Lord can we boast in, and everyone agrees that we should do good works in His name. Whats the problem then? I don't know.

Because a man can have works without faith, and fool himself and others into thinking he is righteous, there is danger in saying that works merit salvation.

Then the other extreme says that works does not merit salvation, so there's no need to do works. It's all about faith so works aren't required and they end up with a dead faith.

Neither extreme is correct. We cannot merit salvation, as God gives us faith and if we lose faith He can give it again, but it is up to us to let our light shine before men through works, to keep that faith burning hot.

 

[Lindas Place]

Another thought I had on eternal life. It looks to me like eternal life is something we acquire. And it seems to me that if its something that we acquire then its something we can reject. This is just totally me and may be way off base, but I see eternal life as something that goes on whether we have it or not and if we have it and decide to opt out it still goes on. In other words the eternal of eternal life does not depend on our possession of it. It's eternal whether we have it or not.

I just believe what He say's... I know it seems too good to be true, but that's why it's called the Good News... His love amazes me!

John 5:24
“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

 

[Albion]

Because a man can have works without faith, and fool himself and others into thinking he is righteous, there is danger in saying that works merit salvation.

Then the other extreme says that works does not merit salvation, so there's no need to do works. It's all about faith so works aren't required and they end up with a dead faith.

Neither extreme is correct. We cannot merit salvation, as God gives us faith and if we lose faith He can give it again, but it is up to us to let our light shine before men through works, to keep that faith burning hot.

Good, except that practically no one believes that which you've called the "other extreme." It exists mainly in the imagination of the people who believe that works are taken into account by God when he judges whether we will be saved or cast off.

 

[B-74]

Any believer who reads Matt. 25 and has not figured out that they personally do both goat works and sheep works is deceived.

s

I wasn't saying that. We must obey from the heart i agree, but that can only come by abiding in Christ which means obeying His teaching, or sayings. But yet Paul still commands us to stop doing evil things and do good instead. Why does he say this if everything is to be done only from the heart? A good man would not do evil anyway. Is Paul confused? Maybe all obedience of every kind is from the heart, as long as pride is not the motivation, because its obeying Gods truth either way. Because if we obey that truth then He abides in us, and we abide in Him. Understand what i'm saying brother?

Its not about pride or self righteousness that we obey, its because the Lord commanded it and we need Him, We follow Him by obeying, even forsaking our pride is obedience to Him.

 

[B-74]

I'd agree with you to a certain extent, but the concept of man being saved completely apart from our "good deeds" is at the heart of the Gospel. That's the rub.

If it were a simpler and less critical issue, let's say whether or not there is a Purgatory, it wouldn't be so important. This, however, is as basic to our religion as anything. True Christianity is different from all other of the world's religions for NOT positing that we will be rewarded in the afterlife because we flattered the gods or the cosmos.

I'm just saying that this is why the definition of these terms and how they interact, if they do, is something that we can't just pass off as less important than doing good because God, obviously, wants us to.

Gods reward is something to be desired, but abiding in Christ by obeying Christ is more important. Lets say i don't feel like forgiving someone, i know this is wrong and my heart is not what it should be, so i struggle against my pride and forgive anyway, maybe i even ask for Gods help, my heart isn't pure exactly because the forgiveness should have been automatic, and i shouldn't have been offended anyway, my love is not perfected, yet my love that i do have tells me to obey the Lord, so my imperfect heart is pure because forsaking my pride and obeying the Lord by forgiving can only come from God.

 

[B-74]

Because a man can have works without faith, and fool himself and others into thinking he is righteous, there is danger in saying that works merit salvation.

Not if he believes the truth of the Word that says no man is good and no man can boast, sure he may fear that his motivation is not pure, but he tells God this in prayer, and he decides to walk in faith and not sight, will God not be pleased with his honesty?

Can a man not do all things in Christ, even good works in this situation? I say he can. Do we have liberty to do Good works in Jesus name, as long as we know we cannot boast in them?

 

[Albion]

Gods reward is something to be desired, but abiding in Christ by obeying Christ is more important. Lets say i don't feel like forgiving someone, i know this is wrong and my heart is not what it should be, so i struggle against my pride and forgive anyway, maybe i even ask for Gods help, my heart isn't pure exactly because the forgiveness should have been automatic, and i shouldn't have been offended anyway, my love is not perfected, yet my love that i do have tells me to obey the Lord, so my imperfect heart is pure because forsaking my pride and obeying the Lord by forgiving can only come from God.

And you think that all of that is possible in the absence of faith? Noooo.

 

[B-74]

Any believer who reads Matt. 25 and has not figured out that they personally do both goat works and sheep works is deceived.

s

After reading this again, i think i agree with you, if i understand you correctly.

 

[B-74]

And you think that all of that is possible in the absence of faith? Noooo.

Of course not. No faith no salvation. No faith no truth. All things are done in faith i think.

 

[squint]

After reading this again, i think i agree with you, if i understand you correctly.

A person just has to be honest to see it. My observation of it doesn't really matter except to me. It was there and a fact anyway. The only difference is how people see it.

s

 

[Montalban]

someguy14.
Perhaps you should read the verse to Mr Montalban, because he seems to think that it's the fruit of Mr Montalban, not the fruit of the Spirit, almost like he wants to take the credit for what the Spirit does.. Tee hee.

Why are you being asked by God to do something that isn't of value to you?

 

[Montalban]

A person just has to be honest to see it. My observation of it doesn't really matter except to me. It was there and a fact anyway. The only difference is how people see it.

s

That could be rather arrogant a post – whether intentional or not.

It suggests that people who 'don't see it' as you do aren't honest.

But the post is based on circular logic anyway

 

[squint]

That could be rather arrogant a post – whether intentional or not.

I'd view it rather factual.

It suggests that people who 'don't see it' as you do aren't honest.

Not really. Anyone is welcome to claim they always and only do sheep works, and I will simply say prolly not.

Any admittance of 'not always and only' sheep works = goat works

But the post is based on circular logic anyway

So says you.

s

 

[Montalban]

I'd view it rather factual.

I understand this - based on circular logic.

Not really. Anyone is welcome to claim they always and only do sheep works, and I will simply say prolly not.

Any admittance of 'not always and only' sheep works = goat works
So says you.

s

Which would be judged on circular logic.

It happens with Protestants all the time

They genuinely seek to do God's will. They pray to God and say that they will put their trust in him/His Spirit/Jesus. They pray sincerely. They come to a conclusion about the bible and as they just believe that God lead them to it, it must be correct.

It is its own test for truth. It is circular. It is dangerous.

God himself said not all who cry "Lord! Lord!" will be saved, but this is what a great number of Protestants are doing.

God didn't want our faith to be based on illogic.

 

[squint]

I understand this - based on circular logic.

So says you. I said earlier it just depends on how you see it.

Which would be judged on circular logic.

Or how factual.

It happens with Protestants all the time

Now that's circular logic.

They genuinely seek to do God's will. They pray to God and say that they will put their trust in him/His Spirit/Jesus. They pray sincerely. They come to a conclusion about the bible and as they just believe that God lead them to it, it must be correct.

There's a compelling propensity in almost every believer to see themselves as 'always, only and ever' right.

Proverbs 20:6
Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?

It is its own test for truth. It is circular. It is dangerous.

It's not hard to view fact from fallacy if one wants to be honest.

God himself said not all who cry "Lord! Lord!" will be saved, but this is what a great number of Protestants are doing.

God didn't want our faith to be based on illogic.

How you see that will always be 'not ME Lord.' It's the propensity thing.

I fully expect to hear those Words if I'm here at the time of separation and they will be Truthful spoken by Jesus and the believer saved regardless. Honesty will bring one to that conclusion. Automatic deferral won't and can't.

Any honest reflections by any believer will reveal a less than Perfect reflections.

s

 

[Montalban]

So says you. I said earlier it just depends on how you see it.

Which is circular logic. The only proof of itself is itself.

Or how factual.

Something you believe could be a fact. How you show it to be, so far, is based on circular logic.

I could guess the right answer in maths, but they ask me to show how I got the number.

Now that's circular logic.

That's not circular logic. At worst it's a 'just-so' statement, or a truism

There's a compelling propensity in almost every believer to see themselves as 'always, only and ever' right.

That's why it's good to humble oneself and look to 'the Church'

It's not hard to view fact from fallacy if one wants to be honest.

Which is still a repeat of a statement of circular logic.

How you see that will always be 'not ME Lord.' It's the propensity thing.

Jesus himself says "Not everyone" but those that do his will. How one does his will is up for debate

I fully expect to hear those Words if I'm here at the time of separation and they will be Truthful spoken by Jesus and the believer saved regardless. Honesty will bring one to that conclusion. Automatic deferral won't and can't.

Any honest reflections by any believer will reveal a less than Perfect reflections.

s

I don't know what the 'time of separation' is. Sounds like a rocket going into space