Is abortion ever acceptable?

[redleghunter]

The point is, knowing who fathered the child does nothing to decide whether there is, or is not, a time early in the pregnancy that it would be ok to decide to have an abortion. Someone who thinks that is the case has a cavalier attitude towards basic logic and is therefore beyond having rational discussions.

I understand your views on human life come from a personal subjective opinion not based on revealed Holy Scriptures, the historic church teachings and scientific evidence.

There is no distinction both theologically and scientifically between a human being and a 'person.' Your position relies on a personal philosophy driven by a presupposition that brain activity is somehow the pinnacle point in human development where we become persons. Again, the problem with this view is it is arbitrary and subjective. The position just provides a personal justification to be permissive to any human life developing prior your arbitrary line in the sand. The "third trimester" is a huge ballpark, thus making your personal position that much more vague. Vague is probably the goal.

As Christians our fount is God's revelation to mankind. He tells us that we are who we are when we are fathered. It does not say born to Sarah in Genesis 25 but Isaac fathered by Abraham.

Genesis 25: KJV
19And these are the generations of Isaac, Abraham's son: Abraham begat Isaac:


This has meaning. It means from the outset the husband has one function in procreation and that is to impregnate his wife and nature takes its course from there. It does not end there as our God is most involved in how we develop inside the womb as well:

Isaiah 44:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 49:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.


Psalm 71:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.

Jeremiah 1:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Galatians 1:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Psalm 139:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.​

What this revelation offers is God's sovereignty in our lives from the earliest moments.

The most basic position a Christian should consider is that if they don't know they should respect what has been revealed. Do no harm.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I understand your views on human life come from a personal subjective opinion not based on revealed Holy Scriptures, the historic church teachings and scientific evidence.

There is no distinction both theologically and scientifically between a human being and a 'person.' Your position relies on a personal philosophy driven by a presupposition that brain activity is somehow the pinnacle point in human development where we become persons. Again, the problem with this view is it is arbitrary and subjective. The position just provides a personal justification to be permissive to any human life developing prior your arbitrary line in the sand. The "third trimester" is a huge ballpark, thus making your personal position that much more vague. Vague is probably the goal.

As Christians our fount is God's revelation to mankind. He tells us that we are who we are when we are fathered. It does not say born to Sarah in Genesis 25 but Isaac fathered by Abraham.

Genesis 25: KJV
19And these are the generations of Isaac, Abraham's son: Abraham begat Isaac:


This has meaning. It means from the outset the husband has one function in procreation and that is to impregnate his wife and nature takes its course from there. It does not end there as our God is most involved in how we develop inside the womb as well:

Isaiah 44:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 49:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.


Psalm 71:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.

Jeremiah 1:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Galatians 1:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Psalm 139:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.​

What this revelation offers is God's sovereignty in our lives from the earliest moments.

The most basic position a Christian should consider is that if they don't know they should respect what has been revealed. Do no harm.

Well, you simply supply more instances of making up things as you go along and depending on using your definitions of words to determine what is reality.

Just as an intellectual challenge for your point of view, take the case of a cloned human being, cloned like Dolly the Sheep, by replacing egg cell nucleus with the nucleus of, say, the stem cell of a woman, then implanting that in another woman. What do we do for a father in such a case?

And the opposite complication already arises naturally from time to time . . . two fertilized cells, even of two separate fathers, happen to fuse together and grow to form a single being. Whose last name should the resulting chimera take?

Anyway, your thesis is entirely unsupported by the verses you quoted.

 

[redleghunter]

Well, you simply supply more instances of making up things as you go along and depending on using your definitions of words to determine what is reality.

I've already provided the scientific definitions showing at conception we become human beings. I've not seen anything back from you other than "ah nah."

Just as an intellectual challenge for your point of view, take the case of a cloned human being, cloned like Dolly the Sheep, by replacing egg cell nucleus with the nucleus of, say, the stem cell of a woman, then implanting that in another woman. What do we do for a father in such a case?

There's a human clone? Please provide evidence of this. You will have us consider science fiction?

And the opposite complication already arises naturally from time to time . . . two fertilized cells, even of two separate fathers, happen to fuse together and grow to form a single being. Whose last name should the resulting chimera take?

You have evidence of two separate fathers siring the same person?

Anyway, your thesis is entirely unsupported by the verses you quoted.

Prove it.

 

[redleghunter]

The point is, knowing who fathered the child does nothing to decide whether there is, or is not, a time early in the pregnancy that it would be ok to decide to have an abortion.

It's the process of procreation and not the identity of the father. Nice way of twisting it.

Someone who thinks that is the case has a cavalier attitude towards basic logic and is therefore beyond having rational discussions.

It was your idea not comprehending what I presented. Shoe fits? Wear it.

 

[dreadnought]

Okay so you her to be a murderer, got it.

You don't know when the Lord puts a soul into an unborn child.

 

[SPF]

You don't know when the Lord puts a soul into an unborn child.

We do know thanks to Luke Chapter 1 that it is before birth.

We also know that scripture says that all human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

We also know thanks to science that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization.

There is also nothing in Scripture that would lead us to believe that at any point during a human beings lifespan that they are not created in the image of God.

We also know thanks to science that the developmental period of a human being lasts roughly 25 years.

It is reasonable therefore to believe that a human being, from the beginning of its 25 year development, through it's entire life possesses inherent moral worth and value.

 

[SPF]

Bottom line, there is no reason to suspect that a human being at any time in its life does not have a soul. We know that a new human being begins life at fertilization.

 

[redleghunter]

You don't know when the Lord puts a soul into an unborn child.

Is there such a thing as life without a soul?

 

[SPF]

Is there such a thing as life without a soul?

There's nothing in Scripture that would indicate that a living human being doesn't have a soul.

 

[dreadnought]

We do know thanks to Luke Chapter 1 that it is before birth.

We also know that scripture says that all human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

We also know thanks to science that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization.

There is also nothing in Scripture that would lead us to believe that at any point during a human beings lifespan that they are not created in the image of God.

We also know thanks to science that the developmental period of a human being lasts roughly 25 years.

It is reasonable therefore to believe that a human being, from the beginning of its 25 year development, through it's entire life possesses inherent moral worth and value.

You'd better quote me the scripture you are referring to.

 

[dreadnought]

Is there such a thing as life without a soul?

I do not know the answer to that question.

 

[SPF]

I already did quote it for you. Luke chapter 1.

John the Baptist, while still in his mother’s womb leaps for joy.

John the Baptist, while still in his mother’s womb was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Nobody in their right mind would even think that a human who both lept for joy and was filled with the Holy Spirit did not have a soul.

 

[redleghunter]

I do not know the answer to that question.

That’s a very good first step to recognizing the moral worth of human beings at all stages of development and life.

 

[dreadnought]

That’s a very good first step to recognizing the moral worth of human beings at all stages of development and life.

There is a difference between life here on earth and a soul. If the Lord doesn't put a soul in a living being, there is no soul - simple as that.

 

[redleghunter]

There is a difference between life here on earth and a soul. If the Lord doesn't put a soul in a living being, there is no soul - simple as that.

How can there be life without a soul?

 

[SPF]

How can there be life without a soul?

I agree that’s a good question. I wonder where the notion that there might be human beings without souls even comes from in the first place. It certainly wouldn’t be Scripture!

 

[dreadnought]

How can there be life without a soul?

Look at a dandelion.

 

[Catholic Values Voter]

Some pro-lifers say that abortion is okay in the case of rape or incest. But this logic doesn’t make sense because they believe life begins at conception. To kill an unborn baby who is the product of rape or incest is like killing a 2-year-old because his father was a rapist or pervert.

Abortion is murder; it is never acceptable.

 

[SPF]

Look at a dandelion.

He clearly meant Human life. And you are borderline trolling at this point as you're not actually engaging with anything meaningful.

 

[dreadnought]

He clearly meant Human life. And you are borderline trolling at this point as you're not actually engaging with anything meaningful.

I'm simply standing my ground.