Is aborting a baby murder?

[trophy33]

"Then God said: Let us make humans in our image, after our likeness." How can this mean that not every human life is made in the image of God? Or are you questioning that being made in the image of God is something sacred?

I was asking where you see that, exactly.

As I said, God is the Creator of life. He can give it and He can take it. He can command to take it. Nobody else can make any such decisions. Or would you like to claim that you have the same authority as God?

Not even justice system, army, police can make such decision? It would seem unbiblical (Paul talking about government using sword to punish evil people).

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

This refers to ...

The thread the link leads to doesn't explain what the soul has to do with the value of a human life So my question remains.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

I was asking where you see that, exactly.

"Then God said: Let us make humans in our image, after our likeness." Again, do you question that humans are made in the image of God, or that being made in God's image makes human life sacred?

Not even justice system, army, police can make such decision? It would seem unbiblical (Paul talking about government using sword to punish evil people).

Paul also agrees that the government is established by God Himself and got this authority from God directly. Literally the first verse of the passage you are referring to Fits perfectly to my point that only God can give the permission to take a human life.

 

[trophy33]

"Then God said: Let us make humans in our image, after our likeness." Again, do you question that humans are made in the image of God, or that being made in God's image makes human life sacred?

I do not question anything, I was just asking where you see that.

Paul also agrees that the government is established by God Himself and got this authority from God directly. Literally the first verse of the passage you are referring to Fits perfectly to my point that only God can give the permission to take a human life.

I am confused what you are saying. Men cannot take the life of other men... but actually can, because they have this authority from God?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Exodus 20:13 New International Version:

You shall not murder.​

LXX:

Οὐ φονεύσεις [G5407].​

Is aborting a baby murder?

The author of the Didache (1st century AD) thought so, Didache 2:

2 ου φονευσεις [G5407], ου μοιχευσεις, ου παιδοφθορησεις, ου πορνευσεις, ου κλεψεις, ου μαγευσεις, ου φαρμακευσεις, ου **φονευσεις τεκνον** εν φθορα ουδε γεννηθεν αποκτενεις.​

not you will murder , not you will do adultry , not you will do child sex, not you will do illicit sex, not you will steal , not you will do magic, not you will do sorcery , not you will murder child to destruction neither newly begotten in the womb you will kill.​

Lightfoot translated the Greek into the English "abortion":

{Thou shalt do no murder, thou shalt not commit adultery,} thou shalt not corrupt boys, thou shalt not commit fornication, {thou shalt not steal,} thou shalt not deal in magic, thou shalt do no sorcery, thou shalt not murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born,​

Elsewhere in Numbers 5:

27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.​

Did God cause abortion in this case?

I think the issue is more complex than simply the two extreme positions of pro-life and pro-choice. See When does soul life begin in the womb?.

Simple answer: No. The "bitter water" did not induce abortion. Nor did it have any affect on the unborn child.

 

[tonychanyt]

Simple answer: No. The "bitter water" did not induce abortion. Nor did it have any affect on the unborn child.

Numbers 5:

27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.​

Are you saying that the miscarriage did not did it have any effect on the unborn child?

 

[tonychanyt]

First you need to explain what the soul has to do with this Is there a Bible passage that says it's only the soul that gives human life its value?

When does human life begin?

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

Men cannot take the life of other men... but actually can, because they have this authority from God?

Unless you want to claim that God has granted everyone the authority to kill their unborn offspring this is leading nowhere. Trying to say that abortion is fine because the government can issue the death penalty is as logical as claiming that killing people is fine because the Israelites did it in the Old Testament.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

When does human life begin?

At conception.

Biologists' Consensus on the Beginning of Human Life

 

[tonychanyt]

At conception.

Biologists' Consensus on the Beginning of Human Life

Define conception.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

Define conception.

A sperm fertilizing an egg, resulting in a zygote. The zygote is the first stage of development in a human's life.

 

[Veni]

We begin to die from the moment we are born, For birth is cause of death.

Birth or abortion, both equals to death.

 

[tonychanyt]

A sperm fertilizing an egg, resulting in a zygote. The zygote is the first stage of development in a human's life.

Does a soul dwells in a zygote?

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

Does a soul dwells in a zygote?

I don't know, but that is irrelevant to my argument. My argument doesn't depend on the soul. And you still haven't answered my question why you think that only the soul makes a human life valuable

 

[tonychanyt]

I don't know, but that is irrelevant to my argument. My argument doesn't depend on the soul. And you still haven't answered my question why you think that only the soul makes a human life valuable

That's what I am trying to do with these questions. It is called the Socratic Method. Be patient. In fact, if it works out, you will have answered that question yourself by answering my questions

Can a zygote inherit the Kingdom of God?

 

[Veni]

We begin to die from the moment we are born, For birth is cause of death.

Birth or abortion, both equals to death.

Our Lord has decreed that we worship none but Him and be good to our parents. Whether one or both of them reach old age while with you, do not say to them even a mild rebuke and do not repel them but rather speak to them a noble word. Lower for them the wing of humility out of mercy and say: My Lord, have mercy upon them as they brought me up when I was small.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

That's what I am trying to do with these questions. It is called the Socratic Method. Be patient. In fact, if it works out, you will have answered that question yourself by answering my questions

Can a zygote inherit the Kingdom of God?

"You created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb. [...]

Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be."
- Psalm 139:13+16

I think it is reasonable to believe that when God knows you before your body is formed in the womb then unborn children can inherit the Kingdom of God. That includes zygotes.

 

[tonychanyt]

"You created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb. [...]

Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be."
- Psalm 139:13+16

I think it is reasonable to believe that when God knows you before your body is formed in the womb then unborn children can inherit the Kingdom of God. That includes zygotes.

I am not talking about unborn children. I am talking about a zygote. Please stick to the terminology.

Can a zygote inherit the Kingdom of God?

 

[AV1611VET]

Is aborting a baby murder?

Affirmative.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

I am not talking about unborn children. I am talking about a zygote. Please stick to the terminology.

Can a zygote inherit the Kingdom of God?

Since a zygote is an unborn child, of course. Read again the passage I quoted. God knows you before you were formed in the womb, that means before you were a zygote. Do you really think God knew you and then He'd just forget about you/make you disappear if your life is ended as a zygote?