Irrantionality of Creationism

[gluadys]

THere is no difference.

There is a signficant difference. Jesus is the Son of God incarnate. The bible is not. Jesus is to be worshipped. The bible is not.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and OT prophecy. And without Jesus there is no NT.

True.

We can only know Jesus through the Bible and the Holy Spirit illuminiating that Scripture.

The Holy Spirit is essential to knowing Jesus, even if one has a bible. But the bible is not essential to knowing Jesus. It would certainly be unusual today for someone to come to Christ, never having read some part of the NT. But, those who became Christians in the first generation had no NT to read. That did not stand in the way of them knowing Jesus.

To not believe the bible is heresy and blasphemy.

Who suggested not believing the bible? That is a red herring argument.

You can't have Jesus without the scriptures.

Actually, you had it right the first time. Without Jesus there is no NT. You can't have the scriptures without Jesus, but you can certainly have Jesus without the scriptures.

If you don't believe the scriptures then you don't believe in the One and Only True God.

Again,who suggested that anyone is not believing the scriptures? It is simply a matter of correcting erroneous theology about the scriptures. Important and valuable as the scriptures are, they are not to be put in the place of Christ himself. Jesus Christ is not a book, not even the holiest of books.

 

[Gwenyfur]

MOD HAT ON​

Would anyone like to guess why this is the number one rule? It's proably because it is the number one rule violation. Calling one another heretics is not allowed on here or in any of the other forums for that matter. It is especially bad when this kind of thing is being posted in not only a Christians only section, but a theology forum. Pay particular attention to the bolded area:

Forum Rule 1


Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"
1.1 You may discuss another individual's beliefs or religious organization but you will not harass, insult, belittle, threaten, defame or flame the individual (member or non-member) as this is considered personal (ad hominem) attacks in posts, PMs and any other communication within the site. This includes, but is not limited to:
a. Directly calling another member “cultist”, “heretic” or “bigot” as these are personal attacks and are not conducive to civil discussion.
b. Calling famous individuals derogatory names (unless it is a well-known nickname) as this may be considered defamation.
1.2 You will not directly call another member or his or her religious organization a “cult”, “heretic”, “demonic” or “satanic” but you may discuss doctrines, teachings, practices or writings of other religious organizations as long as empirical evidence is provided.
1.3 You will only post negative statements about another individual’s belief or religious organization (including non-Christian religions) with objective evidence provided. Members are allowed to say “The doctrines X church is false because of Y scriptures and Z other relevant evidence”.
1.4 You will not misquote another member regardless of context.
1.5You will not directly state or otherwise imply that another member is not a Christian if he or she falls under Rule 6.5 and 6.6 and he or she does not have a hidden faith icon without providing substantiation from scripture or doctrine or historic church writtings.
​

If I see this again there will be action taken.

MOD HAT OFF​

WHere's the mod hat when every YEC on this board is called stupid, ignorant, closed minded and whatever other slurs the TE's feel like throwing?

 

[Willtor]

WHere's the mod hat when every YEC on this board is called stupid, ignorant, closed minded and whatever other slurs the TE's feel like throwing?

See post #20.

 

[mark kennedy]

WHere's the mod hat when every YEC on this board is called stupid, ignorant, closed minded and whatever other slurs the TE's feel like throwing?

If I see it or its reported there will be a warning, which is the best way to get things back in line. I try to moderate by participating in the thread and redirecting the discussion. I had no real choice with these two, they were both calling one anothers postion heresy. To tell you the truth I never gave a second thought to whether they were YEC or TE.

If you see someone calling a YEC or anyone elses doctrine feel free to report it. If it's an obvious flame then we don't even want you to respond to it, just bring it to our attention.

Feel free to PM me with any questions or concerns.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[ebia]

Since I have read many posts under the Origins Theology threads and post on some it seems that many people are trying to make 'sense' out of how the universe and life came to be. As I have posted on one thread: God does not make sense.

1Co 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

So God is infinitely wiser and stronger than me. Does that mean I should not use my God given gifts of reason and strength? Should I bury my talents in the ground because they are nothing compared to God's? Or should I allow him to work through them as he calls me?

We can try all we want to figure God out and try to make Him look reasonable, but we can't. We cannot understand God and His ways.

We can't completely understand God (or much else for that matter), but we can begin to understand him.

Remember the account of Jericho's walls falling down. It doesn't make sense for God to tell Israel to walk around Jericho as the way to defeat the city. However, that's want won the victory.

What God wants from us is obedience and faith in Him. Obedience in what He tells us to do. And faith that He is faithful and true and all that is in His Word, the scriptures, is completely true.

I don't think God does want blind obedience, which is what you seem to be asking for; he wants us to learn to be more like he intends us to be, more like him.

A good teacher doesn't want his students to follow the rules just because they are the rules. That's better than nothing, but it's only a step towards doing the right thing because you understand why it's the right thing to do.

So since God is irrational so is creationism.

God isn't irrational - he is beyond our complete understanding, but that's not the same as irrational (except maybe in the sense that pi is irrational, but that is not the sense in which creationism is irrational).

I would rather be irrational and believe God than to be rational and be without salvation.

I'd rather accept both gifts from God, thanks.

 

[artybloke]

WHere's the mod hat when every YEC on this board is called stupid, ignorant, closed minded and whatever other slurs the TE's feel like throwing?

When you actually prove to me that you know what the modern theory of evolution is, I'll consider you have a right to criticise those that do.

Otherwise, "whereof one cannot speak, thereof be silent," as Wiggenstein once said.

 

[RenHoek]

Pr 3:5 - Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; I, personally, trust what God says in Gen.

 

[jckstraw72]

if we are a product of evolution, then does that mean we will one day be evolved beyond the image of God? Will Christianity some day be obsolete bc we have evolved to a higher being that understands and experiences God in a higher form? Back when we were animals we wouldnt have experieneced God in the same way we do now, so I guess someday Christianity will be obsolete. I wonder if that means Christ's death and resurrection will be obsolete? Does the world really need a sacrifice for its salvation when it could just evolve into a higher state?

 

[The Lady Kate]

if we are a product of evolution, then does that mean we will one day be evolved beyond the image of God?

What exactly is "The image of God," and what would you consider a point where we go beyond it?

Will Christianity some day be obsolete bc we have evolved to a higher being that understands and experiences God in a higher form?

Obsolete? Yes and No. Christianity as we understand it... and as we practice it... may very well become a thing of the past, as our knowledge and understanding of God and His works change and grow. Of course, one could easily argue that this has already happened. As Christians, the way we understand and express our relationship with Christ is far different than what people did thousands, or even hundreds of years ago.

We are still God's children... but we have done a little bit of growing up so far.

Back when we were animals we wouldnt have experieneced God in the same way we do now, so I guess someday Christianity will be obsolete.

Back when we were primative Iron Age nomads we didn't experience God the same way we do now. Did Christianity go obsolete yet?

I wonder if that means Christ's death and resurrection will be obsolete? Does the world really need a sacrifice for its salvation when it could just evolve into a higher state?

Higher than what?

 

[jckstraw72]

What exactly is "The image of God," and what would you consider a point where we go beyond it?

well we, as humans, were created in the image and likeness of God, and i surely thought that we have fallen from that state bc of sin. if we evolve humanity then im wondering if were no longer in the image of God, since that image was given to humanity?

Higher than what?

than how things are now. i dont have the answers, cause i think the idea of evolution is ridonk, so im trying to figure out how it would all work if this is true. i find it hard to believe that the faith instituted by Jesus Christ would become obsolete in the future.

 

[gluadys]

if we are a product of evolution, then does that mean we will one day be evolved beyond the image of God?

Is it our bodies or our souls that are made in the image of God?

Will Christianity some day be obsolete bc we have evolved to a higher being that understands and experiences God in a higher form?

Evolution is not about becoming a higher being. There is no reason to speak of any living species as higher or lower than another. There is no reason to speak of humans today as being higher than humans of 200,000 years ago, or to speak of humans 200,000 years in the future as being higher than us. Different in many ways, yes. But not higher in any biological sense.

Most differences in human societies are cultural, not biological.

Back when we were animals we wouldnt have experieneced God in the same way we do now, so I guess someday Christianity will be obsolete.

Biologically, we still are animals and always will be in this world.

Christianity will certainly change, as it has in the past, but its hard to say it would become obsolete. We will always need to hear the good news of God's love for us, and of how God has provided redemption from our sins.

I wonder if that means Christ's death and resurrection will be obsolete? Does the world really need a sacrifice for its salvation when it could just evolve into a higher state?

As noted above, evolution is not about a "higher state". This notion is tied to a concept called "the great chain of being" which often included the notion of a soul (not a body) evolving through various states from lowest to highest. Its an old philosophical idea that has nothing to do with biological science. It is often connected with belief in re-incarnation and the transmigration of souls from one body to another. That is a very different idea from biological evolution.

 

[The Lady Kate]

well we, as humans, were created in the image and likeness of God, and i surely thought that we have fallen from that state bc of sin. if we evolve humanity then im wondering if were no longer in the image of God, since that image was given to humanity?

Again, what is "the image and likeness of God"?

than how things are now.

There's no such thing as "higher" in evolutionary theory. There is only a measure of how well something is suited to its environment.

i dont have the answers, cause i think the idea of evolution is ridonk, so im trying to figure out how it would all work if this is true.

Well, the first step is to figure out exactly what it is... and more importantly, what it is not. So far it sounds like someone's been giving you a lot of wrong ideas.

i find it hard to believe that the faith instituted by Jesus Christ would become obsolete in the future.

But is our faith exactly the same as it was when Jesus Christ first instituted it?

And does evolution affect that in any way, shape, or form?

 

[gluadys]

well we, as humans, were created in the image and likeness of God, and i surely thought that we have fallen from that state bc of sin.

This is theologically incorrect. The image of God is part of our human nature--part of what makes us human. Each and everyone of us is still made in the image of God, in spite of sin. If we were not, we would not be human.

We do not express the image of God in us as we ought. That is an effect of sin. You might say the image of God in us is veiled or wounded or distorted because of sin. But not that it does not exist.

if we evolve humanity then im wondering if were no longer in the image of God, since that image was given to humanity?

Biological evolution (which is the only kind science talks about) refers only to biological changes. The image of God is not biological and not affected by biological changes.


Even if we were to evolve to the point of being another species, that species would be descended from us, and therefore it would likely continue to bear the image of God.

i find it hard to believe that the faith instituted by Jesus Christ would become obsolete in the future.

Me too.

 

[jckstraw72]

But is our faith exactly the same as it was when Jesus Christ first instituted it?

in the Orthodox Church...yes

 

[Gwenyfur]

What exactly is "The image of God," and what would you consider a point where we go beyond it?

Look in the mirror

Obsolete? Yes and No. Christianity as we understand it... and as we practice it... may very well become a thing of the past, as our knowledge and understanding of God and His works change and grow. Of course, one could easily argue that this has already happened. As Christians, the way we understand and express our relationship with Christ is far different than what people did thousands, or even hundreds of years ago.

We are still God's children... but we have done a little bit of growing up so far.

G-d set the standard for worshipping Him, not us. His is who was, and is, and is to come. The same yesterday today and forever.

Back when we were primative Iron Age nomads we didn't experience God the same way we do now. Did Christianity go obsolete yet?

That would be judaism you're referring to. The sacrificial system G-d implemented in order for the faithful to worship Him. That law was fulfilled in Y'shua. And yes, Bible believing Christianity seems to be disappearing...ie: this forum is evidence of that


Higher than what?

Isaiah 14:13-15

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Keeo evolving It's what the dark one once believed he could do as well heh...

 

[Gwenyfur]

It's scary to have to say the same thing twice.

Then change the CD...

 

[Gwenyfur]

in the Orthodox Church...yes

 

[Dannager]

And yes, Bible believing Christianity seems to be disappearing...ie: this forum is evidence of that

Belief in a literal interpretation of the Bible seems to be disappearing. This is probably because the more we discover about the natural world the less possible it is to reconcile a literal reading of Genesis with our observations. Fortunately, a literal interpretation of the Bible is not a requirement for healthy Christian faith.

 

[The Lady Kate]

What exactly is "The image of God," and what would you consider a point where we go beyond it?

Look in the mirror

Ok, I'm looking in the mirror. I have two eyes, a nose, relatively straight teeth, and a few split ends which need trimming.

Now, in a couple of million years, we might evolve beyond some of that... but what does it have to do with the "Image of God"?

Furthermore, doesn't the idea of looking for God in the mirror sounds like the most arrogant kind of idolatry?

G-d set the standard for worshipping Him, not us. His is who was, and is, and is to come. The same yesterday today and forever.

He's the same... we're not. Over the last couple of thousand years, we've found other ways to do His will... not to mention ways to discern what His will is in the first place.

That would be judaism you're referring to. The sacrificial system G-d implemented in order for the faithful to worship Him. That law was fulfilled in Y'shua. And yes, Bible believing Christianity seems to be disappearing...ie: this forum is evidence of that

Disappearing... or evolving?

Higher than what?

Isaiah 14:13-15

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Keeo evolving It's what the dark one once believed he could do as well heh...

Fortunately this has nothing to do with evolution... so let's try to stay on topic.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Disappearing... or evolving?

Still practised today as it was then minus the sacrifice ... the Temple was destroyed