LDS Inside Mormon Worship Practices and Temple Rituals

[Wgw]

I was asked by some of my esteemed colleagues to contrviute to thread on Mormon Patriarchal blessings, however, I felt this was a subject of only limited interest to me personally.

Rather, as a keen enthusiast of the Christian liturgy (I consider myself to be something of a scholar in liturgiology and sacramental theology), and as an enthusist of comparative religion, I am a firm believer in the idea of lex orandi, lex credendi (the law of prayer is the law of belief). Thus, whenever studying a religion, like Mormonism, I like to look at that religion's worship praxis; how does that religion relate to the divine? How do they approach prayer? What are rheir sacraments? Do they have organized worship services or liturgies, and if so, what do these look like?

Mormonism is somewhat interesting in this respect mainly because of the intense secrecy which they strice to maintain over their Temple services. On your first visit to a typical Mormon parish church, or "stake," you will encounter something that looks almost classically low church Protestant, led by a "Bishop" or stake-president:

There are a few eccentricities, however. The Mormons subscribe to a rather too literal interpretation of our Lord's injunction against "vain repetition," taking this to what I consider the somewhat ridiculous extreme of not repeating the Lord's Prayer verbatim. Instead, Mormons are masters of ex tempore prayer; they artfully improvise prayers in Elizabethan English that would not sound out of place in an Anglican communion service, in some cases following loosely the structure of the Lord's Prayer or certsin other "outlines." Communion takes us to the next peculiarity; the Mormons have revived the ancient heresy of the Hydroparastae, by illicitly substituting water for wine in direct violation of the canons of the ancient Church. The common Protestant substitution of grape juice for wine is justifiable, on the grounds that it is "new wine," if at times perhaps a bit dubious in light of say, the Wedding Feast at Cana and Paul's admonition to Timothy, but the Mormons depart the reservation altogether and embrace, unwittingly, an ancient error, which we know about only because St. Epiphanius of Salamis documented it in the Panarion, and certain canons of the early church expressly forbid it, alomg with other substitutions of Eucharistic matter (thenearly chuech firbade celebrating the Eucharist with milk and honey, for example). The reason for this should be rather obvious; our Lord passed around a chalice of wine, not of water, together with the bread, and as the former became His precious body, so too did the later become His precious blood.

Let us now move on to the Temple, where converts to Mormonism will be baptized, and holders of the disconate, or Aaronic priesthood (practically, boys over 12), and slightly older girls, will be repeatedly immersed and "baptized" again and again by a holder of the Melchizedek Priesthood, which is reserved for adults. I find this disturbing; many people find it offensive; it is widely believed that the Mormon sponsorship of ancestry.com is specficially to assist these efforts, which as thenparsble of the Rich Man and Lazarus teaches us, are ultimately futile. And the thought of repeatedly immersing a boy or girl in a baptismal font in a manner much more violent than the gentle threefold immersions of Holy Orthodoxy strikes me as child abuse:

Now. we move onto the elaborate Endowment Service. This is a video shown to everyone who receives their Temple Reccommend; it used to, in the manner of the advanced degrees of Scottish Rite Masonry (to which Mormonism owes a debt in terms of its ritual) be performed live, on stage, and my understanding is they still do this in St. Louis. The video itself is a bit evocative of the original Battlestar Galactica or Buck Rogers; this is unsurprising as I believe Glen A. Larson, a devout Mormon who created Battlestar Galactica and produced Buck Rogers, and many other programs, also produced this video. Note the increasingly dated looking hair, costuming and special effects. Now, bear in mind, if you want to talk "dated," the Orthodox Church uses vestments based on a combination of those specified for Hebrew priests in Leveticus, and fourth century Byzantine Court Dress, as indeed do the Roman Catholics and most liturgicsl Christians. However. I do like to think our liturgies are a genuine living experience, and not a canned presentation. While we are on the subject of attire, note the Temple Garments: Mormons are required to wear a portion of these at all times, even while bathing if memory serves, and they must be purchased either intact or in the form of a sewing kit from Beehive Industries, which is one of a large number of industries fully owned and controlled by the Church (which is something of a financial powerhouse).

At the end of the previous video, and in this next video, we see the "mysteries of the veil," secret grips, gestures and passwords required to gain access to Heaven after death. This idea is classically Gnostic; the Gnostics believed that salvation could be attained through the acquisition of secret knowledge, which would allow the soul to escape the evil archons after death and ascend to the Pleroma. Even to this day, the last surviving Gnostics, the Mandaeans of Iraq, memorize special phrases and passwords based on Chaldean astrology to ensure their assent to the Pleroma (a spiritual Heaven) will not be impeded by the seven planetary archons or Ruha, the evil spirit. The chief difference in Mormonism is that the grips, signs, passwords and ritual come not from Chaldean paganism, but from the various rituals of Freemasonry known as the "secret work," by which Freemasons would idemtify themselves to each other when seeking assistance or admittance to a lodge where they were not a regular member.

Now, we come to the Prayer Circle. I have not studied these, and am not precisely sure of their function, but of the Mormon temple rituals, these seem the most genuinely interesting and worthy of further analysis.

http://youtu.be/ULrlf78GSac

Lastly, in all fairness to Mormons, let us reflect on the well-publiciized Temple Ritual that draws so many people into this non-Christian religion: sealing, or celestial marriage. After all, who would not wish to be united with their spouse and their beloved children for all eternity? I have enormous respect for the genuine love Mormons have for their families that makes them eant to do this. However, I must lament to point out what Jesus Christ Himself said in Matthew 10:35-37. God gives us free will, and tragically, we have the option to refuse His love; we can also, by loving the things in this world, even our loved ones, more than God, focus on the wrong priorities, and be led astray and thus potentially separated from some members of our family in the eschaton.

However, lest anyone fall into despair, it must be positively stressed that God is love. The Orthdox Church prays for the salvation of all men, and we praynfor the dead, and in the case of prayers offered for the deceased, the mystical experience of the Orthodox Church suggests these prayers are effective, and that there is a real reason to hope that all or nearly allmay be saved; we should not despair over the prospects of the salvation of our loved ones, nor join false religions like Mormonism which make empty promises regarding the unity of families in the afterlife, on which they cannot begin to deliver, but rather, simply pray for them. Pray fervently for the dalvation of your licing brethren and teach them the Holy Gospel, in word and in deed. And if you belong to a form of Christianity where you, like CS Lewis, feel it proper to pray for your departed loved ones, then by all means do so.

In summary, I can understand why the LDS church would wish to keep much of this under wraps. Anyone not thoroughly indoctrinsted might find a number of these rites both highly peculiar and at the same time, by virtue of their scripted, produced, controlled nature, lacking the spontaneity and living presence of the Holy Spirit manifest even in the very formal liturgical rites of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. They are, as worship services go, most closely related to a mix of Freemasonry and various 19th cenrury American evangelical practices from the "burned over district" of upstate New York that gave birth to Mormonism, the Millerites, and several other novel interpretations of Christianity.

The only really compelling Mormon temple is the celestial sealing of married couples and their children for all eternity, but the very words of our Lprd male it clear that this ceremony is, tragically, nothing more than an empty gesture on the part of Mormons, for they have no ability to prevent "sealed" members of a family from later comitting apostasy and falling away.

 

[Ironhold]

To begin with, it should be noted that it's considered highly offensive to display the temple rituals in public; we hold them as sacred, and so by publicly airing them it's seen as being disrespectful.

What's more, people should stop to consider how this footage was obtained and how many commandments had to be broken in the process.

That being said -

Instead, Mormons are masters of ex tempore prayer; they artfully improvise prayers in Elizabethan English that would not sound out of place in an Anglican communion service, in some cases following loosely the structure of the Lord's Prayer or certsin other "outlines."

"Artfully" is insulting in this context, as people are asked to pray as the spirit guides. People are to address their prayers to Heavenly Father and close in Jesus' name, but that's about it. Only a handful of prayers in the church are set down, and most of those are in the scriptures somewhere.

Communion takes us to the next peculiarity; the Mormons have revived the ancient heresy of the Hydroparastae, by illicitly substituting water for wine in direct violation of the canons of the ancient Church.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/27?lang=eng

Joseph Smith received a revelation indicating that the exact substance to be used didn't matter, only the intent.

You see, even from the very beginning the LDS faith was so hated by people that having wine in communion was a liability; there was too great a risk of people poisoning the wine in an effort to kill everyone. Thus, substitutions weren't such a big deal.

I question how it is that you missed this given all the study you supposedly did into the church.

where converts to Mormonism will be baptized

Actual baptism into the church as a member takes place inside the regular meetinghouse. Again, this is something basic.

it is widely believed that the Mormon sponsorship of ancestry.com is specficially to assist these efforts

It's my understanding that Ancestry.com contacted the church, not the other way around.

Also:

[1] The church believes that this is done so people who died without hearing the gospel will have a chance to accept the ordinances. This way, people don't suffer. In that sense, the parable you raise does not apply since it's not even on the same topic.

[2] "Violently"? What do you mean by this?

The video itself is a bit evocative of the original Battlestar Galactica or Buck Rogers; this is unsurprising as I believe Glen A. Larson, a devout Mormon who created Battlestar Galactica and produced Buck Rogers, and many other programs, also produced this video.

So you're saying that Larson snuck a camera in? That's how your passage reads.

While we are on the subject of attire, note the Temple Garments: Mormons are required to wear a portion of these at all times, even while bathing if memory serves, and they must be purchased either intact or in the form of a sewing kit from Beehive Industries, which is one of a large number of industries fully owned and controlled by the Church (which is something of a financial powerhouse)

1. It's up to the individual when and how they wear the garments, so your memory is indeed wrong.

2. Given that there are "Good Christians" who wipe their bottoms with the garments in public as a means of generating shock value against the church, I think you can understand why the church is so keen on controlling the distribution.

3. Most of the whole "economic powerhouse" nonsense is just that: nonsense. If I knew you'd be willing to honestly discuss things, we could.

The chief difference in Mormonism is that the grips, signs, passwords and ritual come not from Chaldean paganism, but from the various rituals of Freemasonry known as the "secret work," by which Freemasons would idemtify themselves to each other when seeking assistance or admittance to a lodge where they were not a regular member.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_masons.shtml

That should hopefully lay your misconceptions to rest.


So yes - your OP betrayed the motto you display at the bottom due to how much it relies on hints, allegations, and things left unsaid rather than any sort of direct research.

 

[Wgw]

To begin with, it should be noted that it's considered highly offensive to display the temple rituals in public; we hold them as sacred, and so by publicly airing them it's seen as being disrespectful.

On this point, with all due respect, I think you must realize you are on a Christian website, and what younregard as sacred, many of us, myself included, regard as sacrilegious. This is because we consider your church to be preaching a false gospel. and imitating the worship services of both the Christian Church and Second Temple Judaism, while lacking a legitimate baptism, priesthood, episcopate, apostolic succession, or any divine authority we can recognize.

Inter-religious dialogue requires us to set aside these views; I would ordinarily regard Mormon worship as an affront or mockery of my religion, but am setting that view aside and choosing to tolerate it in the interest of dialoge. You, in turn, have to be prepared to make the same kind of concession.

What's more, people should stop to consider how this footage was obtained and how many commandments had to be broken in the process.

That being said -

Instead, Mormons are masters of ex tempore prayer; they artfully improvise prayers in Elizabethan English that would not sound out of place in an Anglican communion service, in some cases following loosely the structure of the Lord's Prayer or certsin other "outlines."

"Artfully" is insulting in this context, as people are asked to pray as the spirit guides.

No insult was intended; I meant it as a compliment.

People are to address their prayers to Heavenly Father and close in Jesus' name, but that's about it. Only a handful of prayers in the church are set down, and most of those are in the scriptures somewhere.

Can you link me to a text of those prayers which are "Set down"?

Communion takes us to the next peculiarity; the Mormons have revived the ancient heresy of the Hydroparastae, by illicitly substituting water for wine in direct violation of the canons of the ancient Church.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/27?lang=eng

Joseph Smith received a revelation indicating that the exact substance to be used didn't matter, only the intent.

This revelation however can't be acccepted, because Moroni had conveyed to Joseph Smith a different Gospel from that preached by St. Paul, and thus should have been anathematized by Joseph Smith. When Joseph Smith instead repeated this dofferent Gospel, the result was that he himself became anathema. Thus, his private revelations are to be regarded as irrrelevant from that point on.

Furthermore, 2 Corinthians 2:15 and Canon 73 of St. Basil give tradition the binding force of divine law. A private revelation on the part of Joseph Smith is not adequete to overturn an Apostolic Canon duly adopted by an Ecumenical Council of the entire Christian Church.

You see, even from the very beginning the LDS faith was so hated by people that having wine in communion was a liability; there was too great a risk of people poisoning the wine in an effort to kill everyone. Thus, substitutions weren't such a big deal.

Water could just as easily have been poisoned. More easily, in fact.

I question how it is that you missed this given all the study you supposedly did into the church.

where converts to Mormonism will be baptized

Actual baptism into the church as a member takes place inside the regular meetinghouse.

An oversight on my part, but this doesnt address my concern of children being pressures into participating in these rituals for hours on end.

Again, this is something basic.

it is widely believed that the Mormon sponsorship of ancestry.com is specficially to assist these efforts

It's my understanding that Ancestry.com contacted the church, not the other way around.

Did they sell the data to the church?

Also:

[1] The church believes that this is done so people who died without hearing the gospel will have a chance to accept the ordinances. This way, people don't suffer. In that sense, the parable you raise does not apply since it's not even on the same topic.

[2] "Violently"? What do you mean by this?

The video itself is a bit evocative of the original Battlestar Galactica or Buck Rogers; this is unsurprising as I believe Glen A. Larson, a devout Mormon who created Battlestar Galactica and produced Buck Rogers, and many other programs, also produced this video.

So you're saying that Larson snuck a camera in? That's how your passage reads.

No, I am saying he produced rhe video presentarion woth Adam, Eve, Lucifer, and so on. And he did a good job.

While we are on the subject of attire, note the Temple Garments: Mormons are required to wear a portion of these at all times, even while bathing if memory serves, and they must be purchased either intact or in the form of a sewing kit from Beehive Industries, which is one of a large number of industries fully owned and controlled by the Church (which is something of a financial powerhouse)

1. It's up to the individual when and how they wear the garments, so your memory is indeed wrong.

Every Mormon Ive met told me they are reauired to wear the underwear continually, more or less.

2. Given that there are "Good Christians" who wipe their bottoms with the garments in public as a means of generating shock value against the church, I think you can understand why the church is so keen on controlling the distribution.

Actually, no, I can't. I see no reason for the church to require members sewing their own garments to be required to buy a sewing kit from a church owned enterprise.

People frequently desecrate Catholic and Orthodoc clericsl vestments, baptismal robes, mitres, crucifixes, pectoral crosses, altar cards and unconsecrated communion wafers, but it never occurred to us to limit production of these items to just one church-owned vendor.

In fact, I daresay Roman Catholic vestments and material is desecrated orders of magnitude more frequently than Mormon material, so really, I find your answer deeply unconvincing.

Although if any alleged "Christian" did publically defecate on a Mormon temple garment, they would have committed an act of obscenity contrary to divine law, and should be appopriatelt censured or excommunicated.

3. Most of the whole "economic powerhouse" nonsense is just that: nonsense. If I knew you'd be willing to honestly discuss things, we could.

You have my personal assurance that I am willing to honestly debate all aspects of Mormonism; the regulations of our debate club prohibit us from resorting to logical fallacies, or from making claims that are contrady to established fact. And I believe I have acknowledged the minor factual errors in my post and corrected them.

I don't see that I made any substantial error, but if you disagree, we can go over it again until you are satisfied I have addressed your concerns as to factual accuracy.

So yes - your OP betrayed the motto you display at the bottom due to how much it relies on hints, allegations, and things left unsaid rather than any sort of direct research.

What that promise means is: no intentional misrepresentations or uncorrected factual errors, no logical fallacoes, and no employment of unethical and manipulative rhetorical strategies like strawman attacks, raising the bar, and slippery slopes. We like to follow the Golden Rule in our debates, and I hope you will be pleasantly surprised by your experience in this debate.

 

[Wgw]

I can answer those, is it what you guys would like? Want to pick 2 questions in particular?

*Note, Wgw, I am not responding to your other thread, because it is highly disrespectful for you to have posted those videos I am will not validate it. Ironhold also did a good job addressing many of the errors in your text, so there's not much need to duplicate effort. If you want to talk in respectful generics though, I can do that.

Just to clarify on this point, my goal in posting these videos, which anyone can find with a quick Google, was to provide Christian members of CF,com who don't have any Mormon background the opportunity to see first hand what actually goes on in Mormon Temples.

Frankly, it is nothing really shocking or offensive; I have encountered a few chaps who, having been kept (unwisely, in my view) in the dark by the LDS about your Temple Ordinances, had developed all sorts of wild ideas about the sort of thing that occurred behind the closed doors of your temples.

In my opinion, the only really objectionable Mormon temple ordinance is prosy baptism, because it is disrespectful to the eschatological beliefs of members of other faiths. The Orthodox Jews objected to it quite vocally, and I for my part as an Syriac Orthodox Christian believe it represents a posthumous violation of the religious dignity of our many martyrs from the Turkish genocide in 1915 and the current war in Syria, as we explicitly believe in one baptism only for the remission of sins, and are fully prepared to stake our eschatological future on that one baptism.

 

[Ironhold]

On this point, with all due respect, I think you must realize you are on a Christian website, and what you regard as sacred, many of us, myself included, regard as sacrilegious.

So you'd be kosher with someone setting up a hidden camera in your confessional booth and then broadcasting everything to the world?

That's the level of what you're doing.

Can you link me to a text of those prayers which are "Set down"?

Blessing the bread: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/4?lang=eng

Blessing the wine (now water): https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/5?lang=eng

Let's start with these two.

This revelation however can't be acccepted, because Moroni had conveyed to Joseph Smith a different Gospel from that preached by St. Paul, and thus should have been anathematized by Joseph Smith. When Joseph Smith instead repeated this dofferent Gospel, the result was that he himself became anathema. Thus, his private revelations are to be regarded as irrrelevant from that point on.

Revelation 14 -

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worshiphim that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Furthermore, 2 Corinthians 2:15 and Canon 73 of St. Basil give tradition the binding force of divine law. A private revelation on the part of Joseph Smith is not adequete to overturn an Apostolic Canon duly adopted by an Ecumenical Council of the entire Christian Church.

That all went right out the window with the First Vision.

Water could just as easily have been poisoned. More easily, in fact.

Not if you have your own source that is monitored.

An oversight on my part, but this doesnt address my concern of children being pressures into participating in these rituals for hours on end.

"Hours on end?"

No, when I did it people were only in for a few minutes at most.

Did they sell the data to the church?

No, the church gave the information to Ancestry.com

Again, you're seeing a conspiracy where there is none. It's almost insulting.

Every Mormon Ive met told me they are reauired to wear the underwear continually, more or less.

Continually does not mean "at all times".

Although if any alleged "Christian" did publically defecate on a Mormon temple garment, they would have committed an act of obscenity contrary to divine law, and should be appopriatelt censured or excommunicated.

In real life, these people are hailed as heroes for daring to defy the LDS faith and held up as an example of how bold "Good Christians" should be in challenging us.

I'm being serious when I say that if you were to spend an afternoon seeing the street preachers at work whenever we have General Conference, your faith in all things Christian would be so shaken that you'd consider atheism.

Before Mayor Rocky Anderson (an avowed atheist) worked out a land swap that gave the church the perimeter around Temple Square, it was Sodom & Gomorrah. Ministers thought nothing of getting in peoples' faces with megaphones and yelling at deafening levels. Brides would be spit upon by "Good Christians" of all stripes as punishment for being married in an LDS temple. Slurs and insults would be shouted all day long. The temple garments, the church scriptures, and anything else that people could get their hands on would be desecrated or even destroyed; this includes one incident where a minister tied a Book of Mormon to a string and drug it along the ground, pulling it away from anyone who tried to retrieve it. It was horrible.

Anderson's deal meant that the street preachers had to stay across the street from Temple Square, giving people some room. But rather than realize that their sins had brought this about, these people started screaming "Free speech!" and accusing the church of conspiring against "Christianity" in an effort to "silence" them.

 

[Wgw]

So you'd be kosher with someone setting up a hidden camera in your confessional booth and then broadcasting everything to the world?

That's the level of what you're doing.

I don't have a confessional booth. But since we also whisper, and since no potentially embarassing individual remarks were left intact in these videos, and indeed, in several, the faces of the participants were blurred, I don't think that's a fair analogy.

I am going to stop short of accusing you of invoking a strawman, but this is not apples to oranges, and I'll explain why: the reason why pastor-penitent relations are prorected in the US and the reason why bugging an RC confessional or the north deacon's door of an Orthodox iconostasis would be wrong is because during confession, people reveal private things they have done that they are ashamed of, that if they were to become public knolwedge, might lead to criminal prosecution or civil legal action.

I believe in the LDS you have similiar confessionals with your stake presidents; either way, if someone posted a secretly taped video of a Mormon making a confession to one of your religious readers, I wouldn't post it, and I expect Facebook would delete it.

By the way, if you look at videos of Orthodox all night vigils or the Sunday divine liturgies (the third and sixth hours, just before the service starts), you will see people making confession; look towards the left side of the iconostasis, typically near the deacon's door (the smaller doors, not the large central holy doors in fromt of thr altar).

Can you link me to a text of those prayers which are "Set down"?

Blessing the bread: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/4?lang=eng

Blessing the wine (now water): https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/5?lang=eng

Let's start with these two.

Thank you, very interesting, that is the sort of thing I am looking for.

Revelation 14 -

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worshiphim that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Keyword: everlasting. That means, the Gospel cannot contradict or even be different from the Gospel preached by St. Paul.

Also, the Mormon doctrine of a Great Apostasy is contrary to Matthew 16:18

Furthermore, 2 Corinthians 2:15 and Canon 73 of St. Basil give tradition the binding force of divine law. A private revelation on the part of Joseph Smith is not adequete to overturn an Apostolic Canon duly adopted by an Ecumenical Council of the entire Christian Church.

That all went right out the window with the First Vision.

Except that visioon was invalid; indeed, please take no offense, but my view is that according to the discernment criteria provided for us to use to analyze visions ("test every spirit") in the New Testament, it is impossible to rationally conclude that if Joseph Smith was telling the truth, that the vision was anything other than of demonic origin.

And we do know that demons have repeatedly appeared to people as archangels and caused the formation of new relifious movments. Most notably, Islam. So it is not as though this sort of thing is unprecedented.

Not if you have your own source that is monitored.

The Orthodod Church and the Roman Catholic achurch have vineyards attached to our monasteries and convents that produce canonical sacramental wine (there are some regulations on it; Orthodox wine cannot be pasteurized, it must be red wine, and it should be mildly sweet and have a low alcoholic content; the Romans I believe tend to follow the same guidelines), which we carefully monitor and maintain control of. And because the bottles are sealed, tampering would become evident.

However, here is an interesting fact to consider: if someone did try to poison the Eucharistic chalice, it would have no effect. When our priests pray the anaphora. the Words of Institution followed by the Epiklesis, the wine actually changes to become the blood of our Lord. This is why we are able to share a common chalice, a common spoon, without fear of catching diseases from each other.

I know of a case where someone vomitted into a Roman Catholic chalice who was ill. Priests are supposed to drink all unconsumed Eucharistic elements at the end of the liturgy (the ablutions). Now, contaminated or invalid Eucharistic matter, for example, the sponge we use to clean out the chalice in between liturgies, can be burned or buried. The priest could have canonically burned the contaminated wine in the chalice, but instead he felt compelled to drink it, and he did not get sick.

The mere thought of drinking a chalice with someone else's vomit in it is enough to make me ill, so I think that says something.

I believe if your community were to follow the gospel and anathematize Moroni, you would find attempts at sabotaging your Eucharist unsuccessful.

~

Let us not mince words, however. You say the switch to water was a safety precaution due to assasination attempts. Since you now, with the vast resources of the Mormon church, could produce and control your own eucharistic wine or indeed unfermented grape juice and ensure its safety more than you can tap water, I see no valid reason for you to continue to use water in the Eucharist. Unless there is a doctrinal reason that we have yet to discuss.

An oversight on my part, but this doesnt address my concern of children being pressures into participating in these rituals for hours on end.

"Hours on end?"

No, when I did it people were only in for a few minutes at most.

Ok, good.

Did they sell the data to the church
No, the church gave the information to Ancestry.com

Again, you're seeing a conspiracy where there is none. It's almost insulting.

So to clarify, does the Mormon church have any reciprocal relationship with Ancestry.com? I do know of many Roman Catholic and Orthodox diocesan records offices that felt obliged to restrict access to records previously readily available primarily due to Mormon genological activity.

In real life, these people are hailed as heroes for daring to defy the LDS faith and held up as an example of how bold "Good Christians" should be in challenging us.

If you link me to one thread on CF.com where someone boast of having defecated on consecrated religious vestments of the Mormon church, I will criticze that person with the utmost vigour allowed without violating the Flaming and Goading laws.

That said, people sometimes buy Orthodox and Catholic paraphanelia to desecrate it. I don't care; our vestments and so on do not become holy or set apart until they are actually blessed by a priest or bishop. So if someone wants to call up a liturgical tailor and buy a stack of vestments and set fire to them, well, frankly, there are a lot of impoverished Eucharistic tailors in the Ukraine and Russia who could use the money.

I'm being serious when I say that if you were to spend an afternoon seeing the street preachers at work whenever we have General Conference, your faith in all things Christian would be so shaken that you'd consider atheism.

No, it wouldn't; the street oreachers in question are regarded by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretics, and we view them as being equal to and indeed in some respects worse than your church. Because at least in the case of Mormonism, you chaos are really personally nice people, and at the same time its crystal clear you are preaching another gospel, whereas the aort of obnoxious shouty bloke with a megaphone who turns up in Salt Lake City during your events has a pretense of normative Christianity about him and is in a huge position to lead people astray.

Negative proselytism is in general not the Orthodox way; most of the groups the Admiralty debated on CF.com we decided to debate because they were engaging in antics like the street preachers you were discussing. In the case of Mormonism, I want to have a debate with you in part because I like Mormons and hope to broaden my knowledge of Mormonism, and already, thanks to you, I have learned several things about your faith that I did not know, including some things that increased my respect for it. As I made it clear however in the PM I sent you, if you feel I crosses rhe line and debates you unfairly or becomes like that street preacher, send a PM to @St_Worm2 and myself and he will make me edit my posts until you are happy with them. And obviously if I break the rules of CF.com and flame you, please do not hesitate to report me.

Before Mayor Rocky Anderson (an avowed atheist) worked out a land swap that gave the church the perimeter around Temple Square, it was Sodom & Gomorrah. Ministers thought nothing of getting in peoples' faces with megaphones and yelling at deafening levels. Brides would be spit upon by "Good Christians" of all stripes as punishment for being married in an LDS temple. Slurs and insults would be shouted all day long. The temple garments, the church scriptures, and anything else that people could get their hands on would be desecrated or even destroyed; this includes one incident where a minister tied a Book of Mormon to a string and drug it along the ground, pulling it away from anyone who tried to retrieve it. It was horrible.

It sounds horrible, and let me be clear, I am opposed to treating people that way for their religious beliefs. I would never do that, I don't think any Eastern Orthodox Christian would, except perhaps on occasion they might peacefully demonstrate in Russia, where there is a real fear of some of the cults that wuickly set up shop in the country after 1991. I believe Mormonism however is officially recognized by the Russian Federation and IIRC you chaps were buildimg a temple there.

Another new religious movement that has been savagely treated, particularly in the Muslim world, is the Bahai faith, as @Arthra can attest. I don't agree with the Bahai faith, but I like Bahais; like Mormons, they are good, ethical, caring people. and they really got the short end of the stick in a huge way in their native Persia and the Ortoman lands from where they originally hailed before World War II.

Anderson's deal meant that the street preachers had to stay across the street from Temple Square, giving people some room. But rather than realize that their sins had brought this about, these people started screaming "Free speech!" and accusing the church of conspiring against "Christianity" in an effort to "silence" them.

Well, alas, one problem with the first amendment is we have to put up with abuses like this. But please do not think of all Christians as being like this. These people are to the Orthodox church anathematized heretics; we view them the same way you view the polygamist "Jack Mormons" of Colorado City, Arizona. I recognize those chaps are not a part of your religion and are repudiated by it; likewise please know that the offensive loudmouths wo think it is an act of the Christian faith to troll your conferences are not a part of my denomination, and I think most Orthodox priests would penance anyone who took part in such a rally.

The Orthodox have also joined the Mormons in pro-life rallies. by the way. In particular during his tenure as the leader of the Orthodox Church of America, Metropolitan Jonah participated personally in several pro life events where I believe your church was represented. We also share a common view of gay marriage.

My view by the way is that Mormonism is very close to Orthodoxy in that you care about the state of the souls of non believers and believe in apotheosis; we believe, following St. Athanasius, that we will be made gods, soms of god by adoption and according to energy, but not ontological or essential Gods in our own right, or additional members of the Holy Trinity (thus, we believe in theosis, rather than apotheosis).

 

[ToBeLoved]

View media item 53797
This is an older temple wear. What does it remind you of?

Article:
The evidence of Joseph Smith's close connection to occultism and Freemasonry, and how this influenced the origin and development of the LDS Church is not well known outside of scholarly circles. This article summarizes the evidence for Joseph's personal involvement in both Freemasonry and occultism, and their influence on the Mormon religion.

"There is absolutely no question in my mind that the Mormon ceremony which came to be known as the Endowment, introduced by Joseph Smith to Mormon Masons, had an immediate inspiration from Masonry."
— Dr. Reed Durham, LDS Historian

Mormonism's Link to Occultism
Both Joseph Smith and his father were involved in the occult practice known as "money digging." This involved special rituals and ceremonies which were performed for the purpose of obtaining buried treasure thought to be guarded by evil spirits. Accounts of money digging during the late 1700s and early 1800s are documented in Alan Taylor's article "Treasure Seeking in the American Northeast, 1780-1830", published in American Quarterly, 38 [Spring 1986], pp. 6-34. This article specifically mentions Joseph Smith, Sr., and Jr., on pages 10-12, giving examples of their money digging activities. LDS seminary teacher Grant Palmer also documents the Smith family's occult beliefs and practices, as well as those of their close associates, in his book An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, (SLC, Signature Books, 2002, pp. 175-195).

Joseph's Involvement in Occultism.
Joseph Smith, Jr.'s role in the quest for treasure was especially important since he had a seer stone. Joseph would place this small, special rock in his hat then pull the hat up to his face to block out all light. By doing this he claimed he could see supernaturally, and would help those who were digging by locating the place where the treasure was buried and observing the spirits that were guarding it. Joseph Jr., himself admitted to being a money digger, though he said it was never very profitable for him (History of the Church, V. 3, p. 29). He and his father's money digging continued until at least 1826. On March 20th of that year Joseph was arrested, brought before a judge, and charged with being a "glass-looker" and a disorderly person. The laws at that time had what was known as the "Vagrant Act." It defined a disorderly person as one who pretended to have skill in the areas of palmistry, telling fortunes or discovering where lost goods might be found. According to court records Justice Neely determined that Joseph was guilty, though no penalty was administered, quite possibly because this was a first offense (Inventing Mormonism, Marquardt and Walters, SLC: Signature Books, 1994, pp. 74-75).

Occultism and the Start of Mormonism.
Shortly after this Joseph discontinued money digging but kept his seer stone. It was with the seer stone that he claimed to both find the plates and later produce the Book of Mormon. This was known by early converts but has since been replaced with later accounts of an angelic visitor. This transition was aided by downplaying the fact that Moroni was a dead Indian warrior, and by referring to him as an angel. Former BYU professor and historian D. Michael Quinn writes:

During this period from 1827 to 1830, Joseph Smith abandoned the company of his former money-digging associates, but continued to use for religious purposes the brown seer stone he had previously employed in the treasure quest. His most intensive and productive use of the seer stone was in the translation of the Book of Mormon. But he also dictated several revelations to his associates through the stone (Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, D. Michael Quinn, Signature Books, SLC, 1987, p. 143.

This fact is supported by LDS author Richard S. Van Wagoner who found,

This stone, still retained by the First Presidency of the LDS Church, was the vehicle through which the golden plates were discovered and the medium through which their interpretation came (Sidney Rigdon: A Portrait of Religious Excess, Signature Books, SLC, 1994, p. 57).

Thus we see that historians have documented a continuity between Joseph's early occultic practices and the origins of Mormonism. This link extends to the development of the LDS Temple ceremony.

Historian D. Michael Quinn has done extensive research on rites and ancient mysteries related to occultism. He states,

By drawing only on authorized descriptions of the endowment by LDS leaders, I believe it is possible to see within historical context how the Mormon endowment reflected the ancient and occult mysteries far closer than Freemasonry (Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, p. 186).

Quinn then outlines the following ten essential characteristics common to both occult rituals and the Mormon Temple ceremonies:

rest of article http://mit.irr.org/occultic-and-masonic-influence-in-early-mormonism

 

[civilwarbuff]

So you'd be kosher with someone setting up a hidden camera in your confessional booth and then broadcasting everything to the world?

James 5:16
No secrets, no fear of discovery....nothing to hide from and no need to hide anything....

 

[withwonderingawe]

I'm reposting this

A few years back I visit New York and went to St Patrick Cathedral, it was beautiful but as I walked around I felt like an intruder and I felt confused. People were praying and worshiping, that seems like a sacred thing to me, no one should interrupt another's prayer as they communicate with the Lord. I would never dream of going into a catholic service to take pictures and put them on Youtube since I am not a member of their faith. I certainly would not gawk and laugh at how they chose to worship even if I disagree with the way they pray to their Saints. I would not do it to a revival meeting although I disagree with alter calls. There is a reverence which we must all show each other.

Jesus taught
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despite fully use you, and persecute you"

I'm not your enemy I'm your neighbor and the videos which have been posted here are offensive to me and my fellow Mormons, I feel 'despite fully used and persecuted'. If you treat your Mormon neighbors this way I hate to see how you treat your enemies. I'm hoping kinder more Christian minds will take it down.

 

[Ironhold]

Keyword: everlasting. That means, the Gospel cannot contradict or even be different from the Gospel preached by St. Paul.

This is where you're supposed to initiate a counter by explaining how your beliefs are in keeping with what you feel Paul was preaching.

Also, the Mormon doctrine of a Great Apostasy is contrary to Matthew 16:18

If you've got a good ad-blocker in place on your browser, I can link you to an essay I did noting - just from the New Testament itself - that apostasy was already in progress during the final years of the NT works.

Except that visioon was invalid; indeed, please take no offense, but my view is that according to the discernment criteria provided for us to use to analyze visions ("test every spirit") in the New Testament, it is impossible to rationally conclude that if Joseph Smith was telling the truth, that the vision was anything other than of demonic origin.

This is where you're supposed to explain how it fails that test.

The Orthodod Church and the Roman Catholic achurch have vineyards attached to our monasteries and convents that produce canonical sacramental wine (there are some regulations on it;

The church was so small and so poor it didn't have any vineyards; all wine had to be procured from outside the faith. This renders the rest of your argument a moot point.

Let us not mince words, however. You say the switch to water was a safety precaution due to assasination attempts. Since you now, with the vast resources of the Mormon church, could produce and control your own eucharistic wine or indeed unfermented grape juice and ensure its safety more than you can tap water, I see no valid reason for you to continue to use water in the Eucharist. Unless there is a doctrinal reason that we have yet to discuss.

You mean to tell me you don't know about the Word of Wisdom?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng

Ok, good.

The length of time for each individual is basically [# of names to be baptized by gender] / [# of individuals of that gender present that day].

So to clarify, does the Mormon church have any reciprocal relationship with Ancestry.com?

Individual members of the church who can prove their membership will receive a discount off of Ancestry.com's registration fee.

I do know of many Roman Catholic and Orthodox diocesan records offices that felt obliged to restrict access to records previously readily available primarily due to Mormon genological activity.

...which is a terrible idea, as the church's central record vaults could hypothetically withstand a direct nuclear strike and still remain in place. That's how serious the church is about ensuring that these records will survive.

There was actually a situation a few years ago where a small island nation saw their governmental records building destroyed in a horrendous storm... only for the officials to learn that the church already had a significant percentage of their records in its vaults already. For the church, getting those records, copying them to microfilm, and delivering them to that nation was as casual an event as going to the barber. Thus, instead of the island seeing a total loss of their vital information, only a percentage had to be recovered.

whereas the aort of obnoxious shouty bloke with a megaphone who turns up in Salt Lake City during your events has a pretense of normative Christianity about him and is in a huge position to lead people astray.

Imagine, though, that such persons were your only point of contact with mainline Christianity.

What sort of conclusions would you draw if you were in that situation?

 

[Ironhold]

FYI - Grant Palmer isn't a credible source.

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspecti...nt-palmers-an-insiders-view-of-mormon-origins

Palmer, like a number of other "I was once Mormon" critics, has been caught lying about the circumstances of his membership within the church. He was also caught doctoring citations within his work and a few other direct academic sins. Nobody who knows about the issues surrounding him takes him seriously.

IRR isn't known for being on the level, either. http://www.shields-research.org/Critics/IRR.htm

I'd suggest that people make it a point to hold the same critical eye with the critics of the church as they do to the church itself.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Imagine, though, that such persons were your only point of contact with mainline Christianity.

What sort of conclusions would you draw if you were in that situation?

But is that not a choice the Mormon community makes on its' own?

 

[stage five]

To begin with, it should be noted that it's considered highly offensive to display the temple rituals in public; we hold them as sacred, and so by publicly airing them it's seen as being disrespectful.

What's more, people should stop to consider how this footage was obtained and how many commandments had to be broken in the process.

Your faith as a public witness being witnessed by the public is offensive how?

Mormons aren't Druze, they freaking go door to door "witnessing" their faith and when someone posts a video of what they actually do and believe they get all upset.

HELLO!?!?

 

[Wgw]

Your faith as a public witness being witnessed by the public is offensive how?

Mormons aren't Druze, they freaking go door to door "witnessing" their faith and when someone posts a video of what they actually do and believe they get all upset.

HELLO!?!?

Indeed, the Druze will not even accept converts. They believe "the doors of salvation" are closed. You can't even marry into the Druze. In this resoect theynare similiar to the Yazidi, except I believe the Yazidi do not regard non Yazidi as damned; on the contrary, the Yazidis actually love Christians, and when a Yazidi couple gets married, they will stop at each Christian church they might pass in the bridal procession to ask for a blessing.

I believe the Yazidis are the descendents of a group of Kurdish adherents of one of the Syrian schools of Gnosticism, probably Ophitism or Carpocratianism, certainly not the Borborites, who later came under the influence of the Sufi mystic Sheikh Adi, who in common with many Sufi mystics, tried to create syncretic religions based on their experiences with Islam and the non-Orthodox Christian sects. The Yarsanis have almost identical beliefs to the Yazidis, but were founded by a Sultan Sahak and allow conversion. And the Alevis and Bektasis of Turkey were probabaly crypto-Christians or Christians converted to a syncretic hybrid of Christianity, Islam, and Caucasian folk religion.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Yeah, what he said....

 

[Wgw]

I'm reposting this

A few years back I visit New York and went to St Patrick Cathedral, it was beautiful but as I walked around I felt like an intruder and I felt confused.

You were not an intruder; all Chriatian churches are open to outsiders, in their entirety; we welcome visitors. Particularly the Orthodox. Many people become Orthodox after experiencing the respelndant beauty of an Orthodox church, with the icons, architecture and so on. And who could blame them?

People were praying and worshiping, that seems like a sacred thing to me, no one should interrupt another's prayer as they communicate with the Lord.

So don't interrupt them.

I would never dream of going into a catholic service to take pictures and put them on Youtube since I am not a member of their faith.

Why not? Usually its allowed provided you leave the flash off. I've taken videos of Assyrian and Catholic services I have visted, and I am not Assyrian or Catholic (although the Assyrians and Catholics would admit me to their Eucharist if I asked).

I certainly would not gawk and laugh at how they chose to worship even if I disagree with the way they pray to their Saints.

I have never gawked or laughed at Mormon services. Indeed, I find the video shown during your Endowment ceremony to be interesting and on a certain level, compelling.

I would not do it to a revival meeting although I disagree with alter calls. There is a reverence which we must all show each other.

I agree. I for my part would not go to a Mormon Sunday service and heckle it.

Jesus taught
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despite fully use you, and persecute you"

And I agree with Him. This is why I don't engage in the abusive anti-Mormon practices described earlier; I have even welcomed Mormon missionaries into my home on many occasions and had a meal with them.

I'm not your enemy I'm your neighbor and the videos which have been posted here are offensive to me and my fellow Mormons, I feel 'despite fully used and persecuted'. If you treat your Mormon neighbors this way I hate to see how you treat your enemies. I'm hoping kinder more Christian minds will take it down.

[/quote]

I am sorry you feel that way. I believe that Christian members of CF.com, as well as those who are "Seekers" who might be considering Mormonism, ought to be able to see what it is that you actually do in your temples, and that the annoyance the presence of these videos on this site might cause you is outweighted by the benefits they provide to other members; the interests of Christianity are served by the rituals of Mormonism being a part of public knowledge. People cpnsidering being Mormon need to know that those specific practices shown in those vidoes are what they will be engaging in.

By the way, I find much of it highly appealing, and if I were not a committed Orthodox Christian, might be drawn to Mormonism by seeing those videos. Many people, myself included, became Orthodox after seeing a video of our Divine Liturgy on the Internet. For example, I myself converted after watching this one:

 

[withwonderingawe]

I was asked by some of my esteemed colleagues to contrviute to thread on Mormon Patriarchal blessings, however, I felt this was a subject of only limited interest to me personally.

Rather, as a keen enthusiast of the Christian liturgy (I consider myself to be something of a scholar in liturgiology and sacramental theology), and as an enthusist of comparative religion, I am a firm believer in the idea of lex orandi, lex credendi (the law of prayer is the law of belief). Thus, whenever studying a religion, like Mormonism, I like to look at that religion's worship praxis; how does that religion relate to the divine? How do they approach prayer? What are rheir sacraments? Do they have organized worship services or liturgies, and if so, what do these look like?

Mormonism is somewhat interesting in this respect mainly because of the intense secrecy which they strice to maintain over their Temple services. On your first visit to a typical Mormon parish church, or "stake," you will encounter something that looks almost classically low church Protestant, led by a "Bishop" or stake-president:

There are a few eccentricities, however. The Mormons subscribe to a rather too literal interpretation of our Lord's injunction against "vain repetition," taking this to what I consider the somewhat ridiculous extreme of not repeating the Lord's Prayer verbatim. Instead, Mormons are masters of ex tempore prayer; they artfully improvise prayers in Elizabethan English that would not sound out of place in an Anglican communion service, in some cases following loosely the structure of the Lord's Prayer or certsin other "outlines." Communion takes us to the next peculiarity; the Mormons have revived the ancient heresy of the Hydroparastae, by illicitly substituting water for wine in direct violation of the canons of the ancient Church. The common Protestant substitution of grape juice for wine is justifiable, on the grounds that it is "new wine," if at times perhaps a bit dubious in light of say, the Wedding Feast at Cana and Paul's admonition to Timothy, but the Mormons depart the reservation altogether and embrace, unwittingly, an ancient error, which we know about only because St. Epiphanius of Salamis documented it in the Panarion, and certain canons of the early church expressly forbid it, alomg with other substitutions of Eucharistic matter (thenearly chuech firbade celebrating the Eucharist with milk and honey, for example). The reason for this should be rather obvious; our Lord passed around a chalice of wine, not of water, together with the bread, and as the former became His precious body, so too did the later become His precious blood.

Let us now move on to the Temple, where converts to Mormonism will be baptized, and holders of the disconate, or Aaronic priesthood (practically, boys over 12), and slightly older girls, will be repeatedly immersed and "baptized" again and again by a holder of the Melchizedek Priesthood, which is reserved for adults. I find this disturbing; many people find it offensive; it is widely believed that the Mormon sponsorship of ancestry.com is specficially to assist these efforts, which as thenparsble of the Rich Man and Lazarus teaches us, are ultimately futile. And the thought of repeatedly immersing a boy or girl in a baptismal font in a manner much more violent than the gentle threefold immersions of Holy Orthodoxy strikes me as child abuse:

Now. we move onto the elaborate Endowment Service. This is a video shown to everyone who receives their Temple Reccommend; it used to, in the manner of the advanced degrees of Scottish Rite Masonry (to which Mormonism owes a debt in terms of its ritual) be performed live, on stage, and my understanding is they still do this in St. Louis. The video itself is a bit evocative of the original Battlestar Galactica or Buck Rogers; this is unsurprising as I believe Glen A. Larson, a devout Mormon who created Battlestar Galactica and produced Buck Rogers, and many other programs, also produced this video. Note the increasingly dated looking hair, costuming and special effects. Now, bear in mind, if you want to talk "dated," the Orthodox Church uses vestments based on a combination of those specified for Hebrew priests in Leveticus, and fourth century Byzantine Court Dress, as indeed do the Roman Catholics and most liturgicsl Christians. However. I do like to think our liturgies are a genuine living experience, and not a canned presentation. While we are on the subject of attire, note the Temple Garments: Mormons are required to wear a portion of these at all times, even while bathing if memory serves, and they must be purchased either intact or in the form of a sewing kit from Beehive Industries, which is one of a large number of industries fully owned and controlled by the Church (which is something of a financial powerhouse).

At the end of the previous video, and in this next video, we see the "mysteries of the veil," secret grips, gestures and passwords required to gain access to Heaven after death. This idea is classically Gnostic; the Gnostics believed that salvation could be attained through the acquisition of secret knowledge, which would allow the soul to escape the evil archons after death and ascend to the Pleroma. Even to this day, the last surviving Gnostics, the Mandaeans of Iraq, memorize special phrases and passwords based on Chaldean astrology to ensure their assent to the Pleroma (a spiritual Heaven) will not be impeded by the seven planetary archons or Ruha, the evil spirit. The chief difference in Mormonism is that the grips, signs, passwords and ritual come not from Chaldean paganism, but from the various rituals of Freemasonry known as the "secret work," by which Freemasons would idemtify themselves to each other when seeking assistance or admittance to a lodge where they were not a regular member.

Now, we come to the Prayer Circle. I have not studied these, and am not precisely sure of their function, but of the Mormon temple rituals, these seem the most genuinely interesting and worthy of further analysis.

http://youtu.be/ULrlf78GSac

Lastly, in all fairness to Mormons, let us reflect on the well-publiciized Temple Ritual that draws so many people into this non-Christian religion: sealing, or celestial marriage. After all, who would not wish to be united with their spouse and their beloved children for all eternity? I have enormous respect for the genuine love Mormons have for their families that makes them eant to do this. However, I must lament to point out what Jesus Christ Himself said in Matthew 10:35-37. God gives us free will, and tragically, we have the option to refuse His love; we can also, by loving the things in this world, even our loved ones, more than God, focus on the wrong priorities, and be led astray and thus potentially separated from some members of our family in the eschaton.

However, lest anyone fall into despair, it must be positively stressed that God is love. The Orthdox Church prays for the salvation of all men, and we praynfor the dead, and in the case of prayers offered for the deceased, the mystical experience of the Orthodox Church suggests these prayers are effective, and that there is a real reason to hope that all or nearly allmay be saved; we should not despair over the prospects of the salvation of our loved ones, nor join false religions like Mormonism which make empty promises regarding the unity of families in the afterlife, on which they cannot begin to deliver, but rather, simply pray for them. Pray fervently for the dalvation of your licing brethren and teach them the Holy Gospel, in word and in deed. And if you belong to a form of Christianity where you, like CS Lewis, feel it proper to pray for your departed loved ones, then by all means do so.

In summary, I can understand why the LDS church would wish to keep much of this under wraps. Anyone not thoroughly indoctrinsted might find a number of these rites both highly peculiar and at the same time, by virtue of their scripted, produced, controlled nature, lacking the spontaneity and living presence of the Holy Spirit manifest even in the very formal liturgical rites of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. They are, as worship services go, most closely related to a mix of Freemasonry and various 19th cenrury American evangelical practices from the "burned over district" of upstate New York that gave birth to Mormonism, the Millerites, and several other novel interpretations of Christianity.

The only really compelling Mormon temple is the celestial sealing of married couples and their children for all eternity, but the very words of our Lprd male it clear that this ceremony is, tragically, nothing more than an empty gesture on the part of Mormons, for they have no ability to prevent "sealed" members of a family from later comitting apostasy and falling away.

You wrote; Rather, as a keen enthusiast of the Christian liturgy (I consider myself to be something of a scholar in liturgiology and sacramental theology), and as an enthusist of comparative religion, I am a firm believer in the idea of lex orandi, lex credendi (the law of prayer is the law of belief). Thus, whenever studying a religion, like Mormonism, I like to look at that religion's worship praxis; how does that religion relate to the divine? How do they approach prayer? What are rheir sacraments? Do they have organized worship services or liturgies, and if so, what do these look like?



And then you unleash the most horrid bunch of twisted sick offensive garbage anyone ever wrote about another church.

Here’s a sample of what some Mormons wrote about Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

HAMBLIN AND PETERSON: ANTI-THEISTS CAN'T ERASE CHRISTIANITY

“Militant anti-theists of the 21st century have little good to say about religion, often blaming it for most of the world's ills.
Few, however, seem self-reflective enough to examine the results of militant atheism's impact on society in the 20th century. A case in point is Russia.

With the conversion of St. Vladimir, prince of Kiev, in A.D. 988, Christianity became a central part of Russian national identity.

Thereafter, Christianity spread throughout Russia. In fact, after the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453, Russia emerged as the heartland of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, which became central to Russian culture, in art, architecture, music and literature.

All of this dramatically changed with the Russian Revolution in 1917. The original broadly based revolution was swiftly co-opted by Lenin and the Marxists, who promised liberation not only from the feudal tyranny of the czars but from the spiritual bondage of Christianity.

Being officially and militantly atheistic, the Leninist regime set about completely undoing the old religious order of Russia.

Of course, the promised peoples' paradise didn't develop. Quite the contrary. The tyranny of the czars was replaced by the even worse tyranny of Lenin and Stalin.

Beginning in 1917, Leninists and Stalinists set about systematically seizing all church property and destroying church buildings. Militantly atheistic Stalinist totalitarianism would tolerate no competitors to the state for the hearts and minds of the people.

The Russian Orthodox Church was, thus, not merely to be reformed but had to be destroyed. And Stalin's commissars were nothing if not efficient in their suppression of all forms of dissent.

In 1931, the Stalinists obliterated the magnificent Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow, in a barbarous act of wanton destruction.

By 1940 nearly 30,000 churches had been closed, confiscated or destroyed; only 500 remained active in all of the Soviet Union.

Of course this cultural vandalism was nothing compared to the shocking human tragedy as Christians were systematically persecuted, imprisoned and massacred. Russian metropolitans (essentially archbishops) and bishops were regularly murdered and tortured.

One was crucified upside down on the iconostasis of his church. And the lower clergy didn't escape. They were hunted down, tortured, mutilated, buried alive, shot or fed to animals. More than 100,000 priests, monks and nuns were killed; many others were imprisoned in gulags.

Religiously active lay Christians fared little better. Many Christians were sent to psychiatric institutions, since the Soviets considered religious belief a form of mental illness. Others fled into exile. (A sense of the intense evil of these persecutions can be found in the writings of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.) The scale of this holocaust against Christians in the Soviet Union compares in some ways to the holocaust against Jews in Nazi Germany.

And this assault was not merely against Christianity. The Soviets attacked the very idea of God, in any form.

Every religious denomination was ruthlessly and bloodily suppressed by the Stalinist commissars, including Judaism, Islam in Central Asia, and Buddhism in Mongolia.

Even more remarkable than the vast scale of devastation, imprisonment, torture and murder of Christians by the Soviets is the fact that these efforts failed.

One would think that, if an ideal atheist state based on pure reason and the rejection of religion could have grown up anywhere, it would have been under Soviet tyranny, which left a people with little formal religious life.

Yet despite four generations of near perpetual persecution and of official atheistic indoctrination in Soviet schools, Christianity survived. By 2008, some 15,000 Russian Orthodox churches had been reopened or built.

The resurrection of Russian Christianity is symbolized by the rebuilding of the magnificent Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow in 2000, 70 years after its demolition.

Other denominations of Christianity are also flourishing today in Russia, including The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which now claims about 20,000 members.

Thus, a story that began in unthinkable horror concluded with a demonstration of the irrepressible power of faith and of the triumph of the human spirit.” http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/55744.htm


I’m very grateful I belong to a faith which has a much more Christ like and loving attitude toward others faith and practices.

 

[civilwarbuff]

You wrote; Rather, as a keen enthusiast of the Christian liturgy (I consider myself to be something of a scholar in liturgiology and sacramental theology), and as an enthusist of comparative religion, I am a firm believer in the idea of lex orandi, lex credendi (the law of prayer is the law of belief). Thus, whenever studying a religion, like Mormonism, I like to look at that religion's worship praxis; how does that religion relate to the divine? How do they approach prayer? What are rheir sacraments? Do they have organized worship services or liturgies, and if so, what do these look like?



And then you unleash the most horrid bunch of twisted sick offensive garbage anyone ever wrote about another church.

Here’s a sample of what some Mormons wrote about Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

HAMBLIN AND PETERSON: ANTI-THEISTS CAN'T ERASE CHRISTIANITY

“Militant anti-theists of the 21st century have little good to say about religion, often blaming it for most of the world's ills.
Few, however, seem self-reflective enough to examine the results of militant atheism's impact on society in the 20th century. A case in point is Russia.

With the conversion of St. Vladimir, prince of Kiev, in A.D. 988, Christianity became a central part of Russian national identity.

Thereafter, Christianity spread throughout Russia. In fact, after the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453, Russia emerged as the heartland of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, which became central to Russian culture, in art, architecture, music and literature.

All of this dramatically changed with the Russian Revolution in 1917. The original broadly based revolution was swiftly co-opted by Lenin and the Marxists, who promised liberation not only from the feudal tyranny of the czars but from the spiritual bondage of Christianity.

Being officially and militantly atheistic, the Leninist regime set about completely undoing the old religious order of Russia.

Of course, the promised peoples' paradise didn't develop. Quite the contrary. The tyranny of the czars was replaced by the even worse tyranny of Lenin and Stalin.

Beginning in 1917, Leninists and Stalinists set about systematically seizing all church property and destroying church buildings. Militantly atheistic Stalinist totalitarianism would tolerate no competitors to the state for the hearts and minds of the people.

The Russian Orthodox Church was, thus, not merely to be reformed but had to be destroyed. And Stalin's commissars were nothing if not efficient in their suppression of all forms of dissent.

In 1931, the Stalinists obliterated the magnificent Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow, in a barbarous act of wanton destruction.

By 1940 nearly 30,000 churches had been closed, confiscated or destroyed; only 500 remained active in all of the Soviet Union.

Of course this cultural vandalism was nothing compared to the shocking human tragedy as Christians were systematically persecuted, imprisoned and massacred. Russian metropolitans (essentially archbishops) and bishops were regularly murdered and tortured.

One was crucified upside down on the iconostasis of his church. And the lower clergy didn't escape. They were hunted down, tortured, mutilated, buried alive, shot or fed to animals. More than 100,000 priests, monks and nuns were killed; many others were imprisoned in gulags.

Religiously active lay Christians fared little better. Many Christians were sent to psychiatric institutions, since the Soviets considered religious belief a form of mental illness. Others fled into exile. (A sense of the intense evil of these persecutions can be found in the writings of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.) The scale of this holocaust against Christians in the Soviet Union compares in some ways to the holocaust against Jews in Nazi Germany.

And this assault was not merely against Christianity. The Soviets attacked the very idea of God, in any form.

Every religious denomination was ruthlessly and bloodily suppressed by the Stalinist commissars, including Judaism, Islam in Central Asia, and Buddhism in Mongolia.

Even more remarkable than the vast scale of devastation, imprisonment, torture and murder of Christians by the Soviets is the fact that these efforts failed.

One would think that, if an ideal atheist state based on pure reason and the rejection of religion could have grown up anywhere, it would have been under Soviet tyranny, which left a people with little formal religious life.

Yet despite four generations of near perpetual persecution and of official atheistic indoctrination in Soviet schools, Christianity survived. By 2008, some 15,000 Russian Orthodox churches had been reopened or built.

The resurrection of Russian Christianity is symbolized by the rebuilding of the magnificent Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow in 2000, 70 years after its demolition.

Other denominations of Christianity are also flourishing today in Russia, including The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which now claims about 20,000 members.

Thus, a story that began in unthinkable horror concluded with a demonstration of the irrepressible power of faith and of the triumph of the human spirit.” http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/55744.htm


I’m very grateful I belong to a faith which has a much more Christ like and loving attitude toward others faith and practices.

Huh?

 

[Wgw]

This is where you're supposed to initiate a counter by explaining how your beliefs are in keeping with what you feel Paul was preaching.

Actually, I don't need to do that; St. Paul said "a another Gospel," and since the Book of Mormon has introduced a new book claiming to be "another Testament of Jesus Christ," that falls into the scope of the Pauline anathema unambiguously.

Now, you can argue that what you teach corresponds with what St. Paul taught, but then you run into 2 Corinthians 2:15, Matthew 16:18, and so on.

If you've got a good ad-blocker in place on your browser, I can link you to an essay I did noting - just from the New Testament itself - that apostasy was already in progress during the final years of the NT works.

As someone who is well versed in the history of the early Church, particularly in the history of movements in the early Church which came to be regarded as heretical, I have very little interest in random essays over the Internet. Something by the likes of Dr. Rowan Willliams, Fr. John Behr, or even Karen King or Elaine Pagels is of interest, but not the various psuedo-scholarship that abounds. Of the various theological movements that were rejected by the early Church, none of them looked anything like Mormonism.

This is where you're supposed to explain how it fails that test.

Because Moroni taught Joseph Smith another Gospel. Had he called him to repentence and told him to read and reread the canonical New Testament, and not catered to his young imagination with a wonderful and entirely spurious series of stories completely at odd with the faith of the ancient Church, that would be another matter.

The church was so small and so poor it didn't have any vineyards; all wine had to be procured from outside the faith. This renders the rest of your argument a moot point.

It doesn't. You have the money to procure your own wine now, and to own your own vineyards and control every aspect of the process of vine production. So why cause scandal by continuing to use water?

You mean to tell me you don't know about the Word of Wisdom?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/89?lang=eng

I know full well about the Word of Wisdom. It, by itself, is a testimony to the falsehood of Mormon beliefs, in light of the Wedding Feast of Cana.

The length of time for each individual is basically [# of names to be baptized by gender] / [# of individuals of that gender present that day].

That makes sense, at least.

Individual members of the church who can prove their membership will receive a discount off of Ancestry.com's registration fee.

So the Mormon church does own or control ancestry.com then?

...which is a terrible idea, as the church's central record vaults could hypothetically withstand a direct nuclear strike and still remain in place. That's how serious the church is about ensuring that these records will survive.

We care less about the records surviving and more about Mormons not abusing them to hold proxy baptisms for our deceased, which we regard as, forgive me, a blasphemy committed against our own sacraments. When you perform a proxy baptism on someone, you are saying that whatever baptism they received in life was inadequete. In the Nicene Creed, we confess one baptism for the remission of sins. I believe it is an insult to the memory of Nicene Christians to perform proxy baptisms for them; the Jews believe it is an insult to their memory also, and I agree with us.

Frankly, I would rather we set fire to our church's vital records, which date back to the fourth century, btw, then let them fall into Mormon hands; unfortunately some Mormons have talked their way into gaining access to some of the ancient archives we have in our monasteries in Syria.

There was actually a situation a few years ago where a small island nation saw their governmental records building destroyed in a horrendous storm... only for the officials to learn that the church already had a significant percentage of their records in its vaults already. For the church, getting those records, copying them to microfilm, and delivering them to that nation was as casual an event as going to the barber. Thus, instead of the island seeing a total loss of their vital information, only a percentage had to be recovered.

At the very high price of the Mormon church being in a position to disrespect the wishes and religious dignity of all the deceased on that island.

Actually, right now, the LDS church has so much vital information it frightens me; realistically only Google represents a more Orwellian store of data, in my view.

Imagine, though, that such persons were your only point of contact with mainline Christianity.

What sort of conclusions would you draw if you were in that situation?

The same sort or conclusions that I suppose many people draw from having their domestic life routinely interruoted by the unwelcome appearance of Mormon missionaries at their doorstep.

 

[Wgw]

You wrote; Rather, as a keen enthusiast of the Christian liturgy (I consider myself to be something of a scholar in liturgiology and sacramental theology), and as an enthusist of comparative religion, I am a firm believer in the idea of lex orandi, lex credendi (the law of prayer is the law of belief). Thus, whenever studying a religion, like Mormonism, I like to look at that religion's worship praxis; how does that religion relate to the divine? How do they approach prayer? What are rheir sacraments? Do they have organized worship services or liturgies, and if so, what do these look like?



And then you unleash the most horrid bunch of twisted sick offensive garbage anyone ever wrote about another church.

Here’s a sample of what some Mormons wrote about Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

HAMBLIN AND PETERSON: ANTI-THEISTS CAN'T ERASE CHRISTIANITY

“Militant anti-theists of the 21st century have little good to say about religion, often blaming it for most of the world's ills.
Few, however, seem self-reflective enough to examine the results of militant atheism's impact on society in the 20th century. A case in point is Russia.

With the conversion of St. Vladimir, prince of Kiev, in A.D. 988, Christianity became a central part of Russian national identity.

Thereafter, Christianity spread throughout Russia. In fact, after the fall of Constantinople to the Turks in 1453, Russia emerged as the heartland of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, which became central to Russian culture, in art, architecture, music and literature.

All of this dramatically changed with the Russian Revolution in 1917. The original broadly based revolution was swiftly co-opted by Lenin and the Marxists, who promised liberation not only from the feudal tyranny of the czars but from the spiritual bondage of Christianity.

Being officially and militantly atheistic, the Leninist regime set about completely undoing the old religious order of Russia.

Of course, the promised peoples' paradise didn't develop. Quite the contrary. The tyranny of the czars was replaced by the even worse tyranny of Lenin and Stalin.

Beginning in 1917, Leninists and Stalinists set about systematically seizing all church property and destroying church buildings. Militantly atheistic Stalinist totalitarianism would tolerate no competitors to the state for the hearts and minds of the people.

The Russian Orthodox Church was, thus, not merely to be reformed but had to be destroyed. And Stalin's commissars were nothing if not efficient in their suppression of all forms of dissent.

In 1931, the Stalinists obliterated the magnificent Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow, in a barbarous act of wanton destruction.

By 1940 nearly 30,000 churches had been closed, confiscated or destroyed; only 500 remained active in all of the Soviet Union.

Of course this cultural vandalism was nothing compared to the shocking human tragedy as Christians were systematically persecuted, imprisoned and massacred. Russian metropolitans (essentially archbishops) and bishops were regularly murdered and tortured.

One was crucified upside down on the iconostasis of his church. And the lower clergy didn't escape. They were hunted down, tortured, mutilated, buried alive, shot or fed to animals. More than 100,000 priests, monks and nuns were killed; many others were imprisoned in gulags.

Religiously active lay Christians fared little better. Many Christians were sent to psychiatric institutions, since the Soviets considered religious belief a form of mental illness. Others fled into exile. (A sense of the intense evil of these persecutions can be found in the writings of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.) The scale of this holocaust against Christians in the Soviet Union compares in some ways to the holocaust against Jews in Nazi Germany.

And this assault was not merely against Christianity. The Soviets attacked the very idea of God, in any form.

Every religious denomination was ruthlessly and bloodily suppressed by the Stalinist commissars, including Judaism, Islam in Central Asia, and Buddhism in Mongolia.

Even more remarkable than the vast scale of devastation, imprisonment, torture and murder of Christians by the Soviets is the fact that these efforts failed.

One would think that, if an ideal atheist state based on pure reason and the rejection of religion could have grown up anywhere, it would have been under Soviet tyranny, which left a people with little formal religious life.

Yet despite four generations of near perpetual persecution and of official atheistic indoctrination in Soviet schools, Christianity survived. By 2008, some 15,000 Russian Orthodox churches had been reopened or built.

The resurrection of Russian Christianity is symbolized by the rebuilding of the magnificent Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow in 2000, 70 years after its demolition.

Other denominations of Christianity are also flourishing today in Russia, including The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which now claims about 20,000 members.

Thus, a story that began in unthinkable horror concluded with a demonstration of the irrepressible power of faith and of the triumph of the human spirit.” http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/55744.htm


I’m very grateful I belong to a faith which has a much more Christ like and loving attitude toward others faith and practices.

I appreciate what Mormonism says about the Eastern Orthodox Church. However, it is a fact that your church regards our sacraments as invalid, and actively seeks to proelytize our members. Which is basically all I have said about Mormonism; indeed, I have gone out of my way to praise Mormons for their personal ethics and decency.

Also, frankly, what I have written about Mormonism is scarcely even polemical. The early church fahters were far less generous when discussing sects they considered to be heresies; read the Panarion of St. Epiphanius of Salamis some time for perspective.