Originally Posted by - DRA -
... The "wind blows" is the unanimous translation from the various translation committees who have considered the Koine Greek words "pneuma pneo." May I ask what Campbell knew about these words that all these scholars missed? And, let's insert Campbell's proposed "translations" into the text and consider what is said: "The Spirit breathes where it [or He] wishes, and you hear its [or His] sound, but you do not know where it [or He] comes from or where it [or He] goes" (borrowing from the wording of the ESV). I have to wonder what made Campbell so sure the sound of the Spirit was under consideration, and not the sound of the wind. Perhaps you can help us understand how Nicodemus (or any of the other Jews at that time) could relate to the sound of the Spirit's breath? ...
DRA: Thank you for your reply. I have been seeking dialogue with members of this forum.
Thank you for the list of CofC Bible commentaries. I had only found two of them on Publishing house lists. But there were no New Covenant commentaries (which is in Revelation only).
“Why is Spirit (Jn 3.8) preferable to Wind?” This was answered in my original post: “wind” is “aeros” and “Spirit” is “pneuma.”
Axiom: “Bible words for Bible things.”
Granted, “wind” in passages such as Matt. 7:25; 8:26; 11:7 is from the Koine Greek word “anemos,” and “Spirit” or “spirit” is translated from the word “pneuma.” However, the issue is whether or not “pneuma” always means “Spirit,” or if it can be used to mean different things -- which means its intended meaning must be discerned from the context. A quick look in any respectable lexicon reveals the word is used in different ways. Therefore, the task at hand is to show why “Spirit” is the intended meaning, rather than “wind,” which takes us back to the excerpt from my previous response in the orange font at the top of this post -- which you didn’t address.
The “breath” (pnoes) is also corrupted in Acts 2.2 to read “wind.”[/FONT]
But then, you cannot, with righteous judgment, accuse these references of yours to be “translations.” [You can prove every heresy imaginable by the Bible translations.]
For sure, unless everyone speaks Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek, we are going to need translations of the Scriptures from those languages into a language that is spoken today. Of course, the translation must be accurate. Mature Christians use resources to ensure they understood how the words were used in Scripture and their meaning(s). By doing so, we can know when the translators used poor judgment or allowed biases to cloud their thinking (e.g., the word “Easter” in Acts 12:4).
I tend to think the “heresies” arise from taking fragmented thoughts from the Bible (e.g., “There is no God” from Psalm 14:1, and, “Let him who stole steal” from Ephesians 4:28), wishful thinking (e.g., reading faith “alone” or faith “only” into John 3:16 while failing to consider the context of the passage), and poor study habits (failing to ensure an understanding derived from one passage/text harmonizes with other passages – per Jesus in Matthew 4:5-7).
I have found the translations I quoted from to be fairly accurate. Are they perfect? Not by any means. If you have such, then please present it and brace yourself for the critiquing that will follow.
A) Rhiems NT, 1749, “Spirit breathes.”
B) Young’s Literal Translation, 1868, “Spirit breathes.”[/FONT]
C) Geneva Bible, 1599, “Wind blows.”
D) 1611 Authorized Version, “Wind blows.”
Robert Young, a lexicographer has “spirit – 151 Xs” and “wind – 1 X only.” And James Strong has “spirit” and no “wind.”
William D. Mounce has “Wind” – 1 X only; and “spirit” repeatedly.
Walter Bauer has “Wind” from many pagan sources of literature, but few references to the Bible. On the other hand, “spirit” is the frequent translation.
These are the “great men” of Greek lexicography.
Here’s the key thing to consider in your comments: “Spirit is the frequent translation.” So, it seems you are conceding the point that “pneuma” isn’t exclusively translated as “Spirit,” because that’s the inference from saying it is the “frequent” translation. It infers there are other translations for the word. That agrees with my previous point. So, once again, it takes us to the context of how the word is used to determine the intended meaning.
After 20 years of dedicated labor, I am also a Greek translator.
So then, Bible translations have lexicon definitions, and “alleged” translations “copy” every Tom, Dick, and Harry.
So, may I be so bold as to ask which particular lexicon authors God’s blessing, from which we can discern which are true and which are “alleged” translations?
Please don’t take this the wrong way. However, after 20 years of such dedicated labor and study, I have to wonder why you communicate in fragmented thoughts. Granted, this post is far better than the typical post I’ve seen.
Originally Posted by - DRA -
… you can help us understand how the history of the RM is the source of wisdom …?”
A) “And I saw another messenger (Alexander Campbell; connected to Fall of Babylon; verse 8) flying in the midst of Heaven (Government*) having the everlasting good message to proclaim (1859**) …” – Rev 14.6-7.
NOTE *: Sun = king, Moon = Priesthood, Stars = Prophets; combined = Heaven.
NOTE **: Campbell, and associates, completed the “Restoration of the Ancient Order of Things” in 1859, when they first enjoyed missionary success.
“And when the thousand years have expired (1959*), Satan will be loosed from his prison (Rev 19.20), and will go out to deceive the Nations (ex-Restoration Movement churches) in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog (Ecumenical Movement) …” – Rev 20.7-8.
Okay, so how about explaining how you derived that Alexander Campbell is the angel/messenger alluded to in Revelation 14:6. You see, there’s a big difference in what the Scripture says and the proposed meaning you posted. Please don’t fault us in being more than a little reluctant to “buy” what are selling (borrowing from the thought of Proverbs 23:23).
NOTE: “You have heard the old saying, ‘Keep the faith.’” But, you do not have any of the faith of the 1800s Movement. You do not have the slightest idea what the Restoration Movement taught. Why are Campbell’s words banned today? Why did they ban the words of B.W. Johnson and Henry H. Halley? What is their goal in withholding from you all the information necessary for a sound conclusion? Are they afraid you might like Jesus?
Sorry, my mistake. I guess I failed to understand that keeping the faith was synonymous with following the teachings of those initially coming out of denominationalism in the 1800s. Up to this point, I have always associated “keeping the faith” with following the teachings of Jesus, His apostles as they were directed by the Holy Spirit, and the approved examples of first-century Christians we find recorded in God’s word.
Yes, I have more than a sight idea what those involved in the Restoration Movement taught, however I feel no allegiance to them per se.
I am not aware that Campbell’s, Johnson’s, or Halley’s words have been banned. Perhaps you can post a link or cite the reference that supports your conclusion. What do you mean by, “Their goal?” Who has conspired to withhold “all the information necessary for a sound conclusion?” This implies that prior to the 1800s, folks didn’t have all the necessary information. I’m interested to find out what “new thing” was necessary. I guess this means to “contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (in Jude 3) really meant that after the 1800s Christians could then contend for the faith, right?
NOTE: 2Tim 3.16-17; Jas 2.14-26; and Rom 10.17 are all about the Old Covenant, and “speaking in tongues” and possessing “prophecy” and possessing “healing” and working “miracles.” What benefit do you hope to receive from reading about the “dead and gone”?
The old covenant? Really? 2 Timothy 3:16 – 17 says, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God … that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (NKJV).” So, I guess this means you follow the Scriptures that pertain to the old covenant (i.e., the Old Testament Scriptures), and they completely and thoroughly equip you to serve God and Him today under the gospel of Christ, right? I suppose when sin today you follow the instructions given in Leviticus 6:1-7 to cover your sins, right? Are you positive that’s what Barton Stone, Thomas Campbell, Alexander Campbell, and Walter Scott believed, taught, and practiced?
James 2:14-26 uses several Old Testament examples to show the nature of the faith that pleases God. For sure, it’s more than just saying, “Lord, Lord,” but also involves doing the Father’s will (borrowing from Matt. 7:21). Are you positive those involved early on in the Restoration Movement believed that only under the old covenant did folks actually have to do what God commanded them (note James 2:21-24)?
Romans 10:17 is in the context of preaching the gospel of Christ, not the old covenant.
While I agree that spiritual gifts have ceased per 1 Corinthians 13:8-10, I do profit from reading about them. In short, they confirmed both the message and the messenger per Hebrews 2:3-4 as the gospel was being preached in the first century.
God is only in the “Present Tense.”[/FONT]
“Jesus Anointed, the same, yesterday, and today, and into the ages” – Heb 13.8.
“Every good gift, and every perfect gift is from above and comes down from the Father of Lights in whom is no variableness or shadow of turning” – Jas 1.17; and – many, many more!
God is Eternal – meaning Today!
Exodus 3:6 is also used to show God in the present tense. Note Matthew 22:32.
