IMHO: ELCA's last straw.

[Luther073082]

It starts with Creation. Man's helpmate is female, not male. The marriage institution starts here as well. It is the way men and women are created. The sexual attraction to same sex is a corruption of God's perfect will. It's quite simple and basic, really.

But you are drawing on your own logic for this.

You do not know how people have become gay, or what God's will for them in life is.

If God intended for men to be attracted to men, I don't think we would've read about all the different times he's condemned homosexuality and unnatural sexual acts.

By the same token would you then extend that truth to oral sex within a marriage?

But my point is you are just extending this attraction thing out to what is "natural" and that was never a question within God's law. God's law said not to have sex with other men and not to lust after anyone. God's law never says who you can be attracted to. He just doesn't want you to have sex with other men.

If this is a perversion and not a mental problem, then you must argue that these people are doing it willingly. I can not for the life of me understand why a Christian man would want to be attracted to other men. . .

I'm sorry, I don't view homosexuality to be a choice because if it was so many Christians with homosexual attractions would simpily choose to be attracted to women. And I also extend that to the fact that I can not choose to be attracted to men, I'm just not attracted to them. So if it isn't a choice for me how could it be for them?

He also didn't create Adam and Eve with Steve just in case.

What if a pastor claimed he was attracted to horses, but didn't act on it? (and yeah, I know...eww...) But that's the same reaction people SHOULD have to a man claiming he was attracted to other men but not acting on it.

Even my own cousin thinks it's gross, and he fights the urge everyday.

I have the same reaction with the horses, I still think both are mental problems which is perhaps the best case you can make, and I will grant that you could extend that a mental problem does infact prevent someone from being a pastor just because they have problems of their own to worry about.

And I'm glad your cousin fights the urge everyday. . . but I think any hetero man would fight the urge to fornicate everyday wouldn't they?

 

[DaRev]

But you are drawing on your own logic for this.

You do not know how people have become gay, or what God's will for them in life is.

It's not MY logic, it's God's word. Since homosexuality is clearly spoken against in Scriptures, it certainly is NOT God's will for them.

 

[Luther073082]

It's not MY logic, it's God's word. Since homosexuality is clearly spoken against in Scriptures, it certainly is NOT God's will for them.

By the same token I'd like to fornicate which is clearly spoken against in the scriptures and is not Gods will for me. But that doesn't change the fact that I'd like to do it. The difference between a person who does do it and the person who doesn't do it, is that the person who does not fornicate is the person who trusts in Gods will more then their own and follows God's will.

Also a person called to be single would still want to fornicate, however they trust in God's will more then their own.

Could we not extend the same logic to a homosexual man realizing that though he may want to have gay sex, it is not God's will for him so he chooses not to?

 

[DaRev]

By the same token I'd like to fornicate which is clearly spoken against in the scriptures and is not Gods will for me. But that doesn't change the fact that I'd like to do it. The difference between a person who does do it and the person who doesn't do it, is that the person who does not fornicate is the person who trusts in Gods will more then their own and follows God's will.

Also a person called to be single would still want to fornicate, however they trust in God's will more then their own.

Could we not extend the same logic to a homosexual man realizing that though he may want to have gay sex, it is not God's will for him so he chooses not to?

What you're refusing to acknowledge is that being homosexual is clearly against God's will for humanity based upon His Creation.

 

[RadMan]

By the same token I'd like to fornicate which is clearly spoken against in the scriptures and is not Gods will for me. But that doesn't change the fact that I'd like to do it. The difference between a person who does do it and the person who doesn't do it, is that the person who does not fornicate is the person who trusts in Gods will more then their own and follows God's will.

Also a person called to be single would still want to fornicate, however they trust in God's will more then their own.

Could we not extend the same logic to a homosexual man realizing that though he may want to have gay sex, it is not God's will for him so he chooses not to?

Again for the umptenth time you are not reading what is posted here. You chose what you want and ignore the rest.

Attaction to the opposite sex is natural and thus not sinful. Attraction to the same sex is sodomy and is sinful.

 

[Luther073082]

What you're refusing to acknowledge is that being homosexual is clearly against God's will for humanity based upon His Creation.

Your refusing to acknowledge that you have no scripture to back this up.

Just because God doesn't want people having homosexual sex does not necessarily mean that being homosexual is clearly against his will for creation. Just acting on it is.

Again for the umptenth time you are not reading what is posted here. You chose what you want and ignore the rest.

I'll pay attention to the wording of the scripture and the wording again states that having homosexual sex and homosexual lust is against Gods commandments. However God never indicates that having homosexual desires (attractions) is against his commandments. By that token I can not make up laws and say being gay is a sin, but only that acting on it is.

wanting to fornicate but not = not a sin
wanting to have gay sex but not = sin????? Where in scripture???

 

[RadMan]

Your refusing to acknowledge that you have no scripture to back this up.

Just because God doesn't want people having homosexual sex does not necessarily mean that being homosexual is clearly against his will for creation. Just acting on it is.



I'll pay attention to the wording of the scripture and the wording again states that having homosexual sex and homosexual lust is against Gods commandments. However God never indicates that having homosexual desires (attractions) is against his commandments. By that token I can not make up laws and say being gay is a sin, but only that acting on it is.

Stay tuned for Luther (sextuple digits) next "Honest question", argument, opinion not based on the Bible....whatever.

 

[DaRev]

Your refusing to acknowledge that you have no scripture to back this up.

Read Genesis. There's a lot of Scripture to back it up.

 

[Luther073082]

Stay tuned for Luther (sextuple digits) next "Honest question", argument, opinion not based on the Bible....whatever.

I'm using the bible, I'm stating that being homosexual but not having sex is not a sin in the bible. . . its just not there. And you are telling me it is a sin but won't provide scripture.

So who is not using the bible here?

Read Genesis. There's a lot of Scripture to back it up.

And thats the best argument that you have is that God created man to be with woman. . .

But by that same token you could argue that its a sin not to marry, because you are not fulfilling your role to multiply the earth.

 

[DaRev]

And thats the best argument that you have is that God created man to be with woman. . .

But by that same token you could argue that its a sin not to marry, because you are not fulfilling your role to multiply the earth.

No better argument than God's word.

And you're once again arguing with a straw man. There are plenty of Scriptural references that say not being married and celibacy is OK. There are NO Scriptural passages that even suggest that homosexuality is OK. There are a plethora of passages that speak harshly against it.

 

[Luther073082]

No better argument than God's word.

And you're once again arguing with a straw man. There are plenty of Scriptural references that say not being married and celibacy is OK. There are NO Scriptural passages that even suggest that homosexuality is OK. There are a plethora of passages that speak harshly against it.

Only the sex . . . and thats been my point.

I really think you are trying to over stretch your application of Genesis on this. Because singleness is clearly allowed and thats really what a gay man should be, completly single. The attraction would be there for both men but just with different targets.

Unnatural perhaps but theoretically so is lifetime celibacy.

A big factor in this is cause which is difficult to nail down difinitivly.

 

[DaRev]

Unnatural perhaps but theoretically so is lifetime celibacy.

But if God allows it then it can't be called "unnatural".

 

[DaSeminarian]

Only the sex . . . and thats been my point.

I really think you are trying to over stretch your application of Genesis on this. Because singleness is clearly allowed and thats really what a gay man should be, completly single. The attraction would be there for both men but just with different targets.

Unnatural perhaps but theoretically so is lifetime celibacy.

A big factor in this is cause which is difficult to nail down difinitivly.

If you use a screwdriver as a hammer are you using the screwdriver with the intent for which it was made?

No. A hammer was made for pounding in nails. A screwdriver should not be used to pound a nail in a board because it was not made for that purpose. God made man and woman for a purpose. Any delineation from that purpose is an abomination in God's sight. So if a man has relations with another man that is going against the purpose for which he was created. Same with woman who has relations with another woman.

The sex drive was given to man to multiply the species not for mere pleasure. The fact that you get pleasure from coming together with a woman for purposes of procreating is a bonus. But God put the drive in us for a purpose and in homosexuality, man perverts that purpose.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Hey, Luther####, if you look at a woman and think "wow, I'd really love to have sex with her", guess what?

YOU JUST SINNED.

 

[BigNorsk]

Luther,

I think you are in agreement with the LCMS on this.

Being a homosexual is not sinful.

Even being tempted towards homosexual behavior is not sinful.

But acting on homosexual temptation is indeed sinful, that is that homosexual behavior is sinful. It's sinful whether you are a homosexual or a heterosexual.

They have some documents on it.

Their plan of ministry to homosexuals discusses this a lot. http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CIC/minhomfam.pdf

The Commission on Theology and Church Relations has several papers on this subject or specific areas of this subject which you can read at: http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=512

Marv

 

[DaRev]

Luther,

I think you are in agreement with the LCMS on this.

Being a homosexual is not sinful.

Even being tempted towards homosexual behavior is not sinful.

But acting on homosexual temptation is indeed sinful, that is that homosexual behavior is sinful. It's sinful whether you are a homosexual or a heterosexual.

They have some documents on it.

Their plan of ministry to homosexuals discusses this a lot. http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CIC/minhomfam.pdf

The Commission on Theology and Church Relations has several papers on this subject or specific areas of this subject which you can read at: http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=512

Marv

Marv,

Since when did you join the LCMS?

I think it would be best if those in the LCMS speak for the LCMS.

Thank you.

 

[DaSeminarian]

Marv,

Since when did you join the LCMS?

I think it would be best if those in the LCMS speak for the LCMS.

Thank you.

I agree with you. Marv is in a church with the Lutheran Brethren and should not be representing views of the LCMS.

I saw your pic in your profile page. Nice to have a face that goes with the posts. I used to have one for Spalatin, but I am not using that right now. Perhaps I will get one with our facebook photos and put it in here.

 

[AngelusSax]

What you're refusing to acknowledge is that being homosexual is clearly against God's will for humanity based upon His Creation.

Adam and Eve aren't the point of the creation story. God's power and grace are. Of course, Adam and Eve are very important in the creation narrative, but they are not the point.

My point in bringing that up is that God's creation, while designed for a man and woman to be the only way of reproducing, also has other species that reproduce in different ways (most like us, but then there's the amoeba, which is never mentioned in Genesis, so maybe it didn't exist or just isn't important then).

But there's one teaching that I think applies to this debate. It won't clear up any "sin/non-sin" issue, but it will point something out. Remember when Jesus said that if anyone looks upon a woman with lust, he has committed adultery with her in his heart? Well, that principle should apply all-around.

So when a gay person "struggles with the urge", there is a good chance they are lusting, which means they have already committed the act in their hearts.

Which means, yes, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but DaRev has a more valid point (even if it's being arrived at through different Scriptures than I referenced). For the sake of this post, let's assume homosexuality for all reasons--not just idolatrous ones--is sin. The act itself is condemned in the OT, but so is the act condemned in heterosexual fornication. Yet Jesus said that anyone who lusts has fornicated.

So anyone who has homosexual urges, wanting someone of one's own gender in a sexual way, they have committed homosexual fornication.

(That being said, Luther073082 makes a good point that if an orientation was a choice, any Christian man who is gay would simply choose to be attracted women instead, and it just doesn't work that way, and I doubt it ever will.)

 

[DaRev]

Human beings are not amoebas.

While fornication outside of marriage is indeed sinful, humans were designed and created for heterosexual relationships, so heterosexual sex is normal. Homosexuality is outside of God's design and purpose for humanity. It is not normal and is indeed sinful.

 

[RayJGentry]

I don't think you need to get on bignorsk about "representing what the LCMS" thinks since he's not in it HE USED LCMS CHURCH LINKS. if his interpretation of the documents was incorrect deal with that. he posted links to what your church has said they confessed.