I'm starting to worry about the value of prophecy

seeingeyes

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Probably the truest thing I've seen in the conversation.

Looks like I need taller wading boots - waist high instead of knee high with respect to what's out there.

TY for bringing back reality.

You are laying a foundation right now. Your house can be as elaborate and detailed as you like, but if your foundation is wonky, the whole thing will collapse the moment the wind shifts.

If you line up your foundation with the Cornerstone, it will be solid.

God bless :)
 
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Ecclectic79

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I think what got brought up here, I'd really love to go reality-obliterating epic on my faith, guitar hero it up properly, just that I also know that its something much over and above how much you believe God exists.

My biggest struggle now is getting my ontology right and getting to know on a personal level who Jesus is. I think the trouble is, its like having a friend who you can't see or here whose ideas and opinions are written down but for who you can only get a general outline of his personality and even there the narrative is a floodlight shined on certain aspects where we're left to connect the dots. Because of that, trying to get our P's and Q's right can be quite challenging and if we're not careful we can err on the side of paranoia thus treating him a bit more like Allah than like the deity that took it upon himself to die on the cross for our redemption (really denying his love and mercy side of things). I'm at that point where I feel like I get insights and flashes but I still tend to negate them at times just because while they'll be in line with the four gospels Jesus I'll get confused on how the rest works out - that's something that I try to do differently but, I'm still also trying to overcome that dichotomy of love and mercy vs. wrath and judgment. The best way I can describe what I'm saying, its almost like if I'm being too hard on myself I will feel an incoming energy - a bit like if my own dad was saddened to see me beating on myself and wanted to interject. Part of my own dissonance might be just how much of the medieval interpretation of the bible our culture still carries, but to make that work - all of these Christians who claim they were sinking into hell during an NDE and only saved by someone else's prayer, it almost seems like (if those were true) all you'd have to do is be forgiven of your sins, see something wild somewhere and drop an expletive, and if you died right then and there you'd be going to hell for the expletive. I'm not sure whether God's more merciful for that, whether the hell NDE's are another side of satanic manifestation much like pantheistic monist NDE's, or whether I still need to knock more plaster off of my understanding of the metaphysics and ontology of what we're in. Either way the degree of what we don't know seems incredibly, *dangerously*, impractical.

You did say something that I absolutely agree with - in John he does say that their identities (the whole of the trinity) sort of stack inside of each other. A gentleman who frequents this site wrote a book on Christian metaphysics that I read which indicates that they are three 'I' experiences drawing of the same pool of influence which helps explain them being perfectly of the same will. Its all about drawing the symmetry through the bible right now. My best guess is that the dominant clause - Christ is merciful on the merciful, tender toward the tender, wrathful toward the wrathful. That might be utterly oversimplifies but that's about as close as I can get in a one-liner right now.
 
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Noxot

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God hides so well it seems. I truly truly wish i could have been alive when Jesus was on this earth, I wish I could have been the thief on the cross when Jesus was dying. sometimes it just feels like i'm left in the darkness and i'm trying to find God, but the darkness is so dark. I wish I could just be over with this confusing world and be done with this weakness of my mind and heart and be at rest and in love with God with not a care, with complete fulfillment of my desire to be with God instead of searching and searching, hoping i'm not walking the wrong path. the trials we go through in this world are so hard at times. how I wish for my exile to be at an end! I hear from some saints that the exile can be at an end while in this earth, but I don't even know what country i'm in. furthermore I hear we should learn about ourselves and sometimes i don't even know who i am, I feel like my own worse enemy sometimes, I feel like i'm keeping myself away from God sometimes. the pain of hindering myself from the one that i want more than myself! I wish I could just get out of this prison. when do i get to see him? i'm so tired of searching... then seeing a glimpse of him...only for him to run off faster than I can catch up to him.
 
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Ecclectic79

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God hides so well it seems. I truly truly wish i could have been alive when Jesus was on this earth, I wish I could have been the thief on the cross when Jesus was dying. sometimes it just feels like i'm left in the darkness and i'm trying to find God, but the darkness is so dark. I wish I could just be over with this confusing world and be done with this weakness of my mind and heart and be at rest and in love with God with not a care, with complete fulfillment of my desire to be with God instead of searching and searching, hoping i'm not walking the wrong path. the trials we go through in this world are so hard at times. how I wish for my exile to be at an end! I hear from some saints that the exile can be at an end while in this earth, but I don't even know what country i'm in. furthermore I hear we should learn about ourselves and sometimes i don't even know who i am, I feel like my own worse enemy sometimes, I feel like i'm keeping myself away from God sometimes. the pain of hindering myself from the one that i want more than myself! I wish I could just get out of this prison. when do i get to see him? i'm so tired of searching... then seeing a glimpse of him...only for him to run off faster than I can catch up to him.
I'm hoping that asking him a million questions, talking his ear off all day (in sincerity though - not just bulk), will eventually at least 'widen the channel' neurologically so I feel like I can at least have him 3 by 3 even if not on 5 by 5 of 3G/4G because right now trying to listen for his voice or listen for his impulses of info feels a lot more like scrying on my own white noise than having that kind of relationship. Best I can do is keep asking him 'What am I still missing?' - I really don't know what else will give me that.

I have at least learned that when I try to meditate or quiet and look inside that what I can get won't line up right, so that and binaural beats got shot down pretty much for what most fundamentalist Christians would call it - the path that the most eager to talk to you will jump at, so the results (occultic forces in my case) aren't what I'd want. Trick now is trying to work prayer to similar diligence without the emptying aspects to at least keep a constant focus and constant effort to develop my brain toward stronger faith or better communication apparatus.
 
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seeingeyes

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My best guess is that the dominant clause - Christ is merciful on the merciful, tender toward the tender, wrathful toward the wrathful. That might be utterly oversimplifies but that's about as close as I can get in a one-liner right now.

Our Father is tricky that way. He made it so simple that we can't figure it out. ^_^
 
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Nanopants

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I always considered apocalyptic prophecy to be intentionally dense like a riddle, or "sealed" in other words. As a computer scientist, I interpret that as "encrypted" in a sense, in that it can't be cracked without a key (for example the seven seals portrayed in Rev 5:5 suggests that it can't be opened by just anyone), so all of the failed attempts wouldn't be detracting from its validity.
 
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Ecclectic79

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Our Father is tricky that way. He made it so simple that we can't figure it out. ^_^
Its kinda like all the extradimensional 'stuff' that forms the basis for his psychology and reasoning is missing to us or at least only hinted at in the bible - hence a lot of guesswork or making order out of chaos ensues. Since we have no memory of anything extradimensional we're left at a bit of a loss.
 
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sunlover1

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What I mean is this - its good when people can perhaps further elucidate Daniel, Joel, Zachariah, Revelations, etc. but as I surf YouTube and as I listen to more and more people coming in to different talk shows - even very well respected prophets - something's increasingly bothering me.

It's really starting to seem like the content of near death experiences and the content of prophecy are part in parcel. There's just as much spread in terms of content and disagreement of content, there's just as much seeming personalization of eschatology (which I don't think is deliberate), and even those who claim to have ongoing relationships where they have active conversations with the Lord (both see and hear) it sounds all too often like there's a big component of 'them' in the Lord's personality.

In looking at it I can't help but consider that all of these experiences well up through our subconscious and because of that it will never fail to come through a somewhat fragmented and dirty lens where such personalizations will occur. What bothers me the most though is seeing almost perfect parallel at times between a Christian prophecy and a new age prophecy, which comes often when Christian prophets start talking Nibiru and rescue from it by 'chariots of fire'. You also have plenty of people prophesying rapture, plenty prophesying no rapture, plenty prophesying Jesus coming at the beginning of WW3, plenty also talking about the people of the Lord simply lead to safe zones on each continent where the grace of the Lord has coagulated - regardless of which direction you take, person per person, the variability is almost endless. If this is the case I'm starting to wonder about old testament accounts were of all the false prophets giving sunny/cheery rubbish and one lone Isaiah or Jeremiah with a few other men preaching and getting spurned - the spread of info and accuracy is just as wide at the fire and brimstone end as it is on the global ascension of Gaia end.

The possibility that annoys me the most, that I run from constantly and that I pray to the Lord that I can steer clear of, is that somehow the new agers are right, that all of these deities are part of the game, and that the universe lies through its teeth because the ends - experiential development of any given incarnation with respect to its oversoul - justify the means or where incarnation is nothing more than an amusement park and when I leave my body I'll devolve into something capricious enough to take my life as a souvenir on a postcard. I'm really - really - hoping that's not what I'm seeing here. Even if only a small fraction of those alive are going to heaven, while that has its inherent problems it doesn't irritate me nearly as much as the other possibility.

Having done extensive research into new age and theosophy I have a pretty dim outlook on it and accordingly have no desire at all to flee the first commandment. Regardless, its really frustrating to see even on the Christian side all the dynamics of spread or personalization of reality that a new ager would claim there to be. I might have to tune out or ignore prophecy for a while and just focus on the news and analysis of current events.

Anyone else dealt with this dilemma or seen the same problem though? Are you still incredibly skeptical of prophecy at this point or have you gotten over it? If so how did you find resolution on this?
I'm not skeptical of prophecy but I used to be.
Now I just use discernment.

While we are not all prophets, we all have His spirit and can manifest
any of the gifts as He wills.
So if God needs to use you to prophesy to someone, He will, but not
if you're skeptical or refuse Him...although He can [He used a jackass]
:cool:

OTOH, there are false prophets, but we have the Spirit of Truth inside of
us to lead us into truth. And we know that we can hear God's voice
behind us saying "this is the way..."

So no need to worry about prophecy.
 
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Stryder06

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It's funny how prophecy, being one of the main tools God uses to instruct, encourage, and correct His people is regarded so little by those who follow Him. Not pointing the finger at anyone in particular, but there seems to be two extremes to this whole thing. On one hand you have those who simply reject prophecy since they can't figure it out, while on the other hand you have those who misuse the gift and wrongfully interpret the words of the prophets from the scriptures, to suit their own ends.
 
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sunlover1

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It's funny how prophecy, being one of the main tools God uses to instruct, encourage, and correct His people is regarded so little by those who follow Him. Not pointing the finger at anyone in particular, but there seems to be two extremes to this whole thing. On one hand you have those who simply reject prophecy since they can't figure it out, while on the other hand you have those who misuse the gift and wrongfully interpret the words of the prophets from the scriptures, to suit their own ends.
Lot of people don't really study the Bible or seek out the things of God
That's how it seems to me anyhow. I have a lot of churched friends and
this seems to be the pattern.
Maybe we get too caught up in the things of the world, never stopping to
realize that we can REST in Him and just "let" God have His way, as we
seek first the kingdom and His righteousness...
 
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Stryder06

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Lot of people don't really study the Bible or seek out the things of God
That's how it seems to me anyhow. I have a lot of churched friends and
this seems to be the pattern.
Maybe we get too caught up in the things of the world, never stopping to
realize that we can REST in Him and just "let" God have His way, as we
seek first the kingdom and His righteousness...

Can one truly rest in Christ if they neglect the instructions He has given us through His word?

If prophecy is despised, how can one rest in Christ?
 
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Ecclectic79

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My attitude is if it's in the bible I'm not disputing it.

A caveat to the title of the thread would be extra-biblical or post-biblical prophecy. That's really what's on for discussion (or at least if people want to debate whether OT and NT prophecy is legit - that's fine, just that at its core it's a topic aside from my OP).
 
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sunlover1

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My attitude is if it's in the bible I'm not disputing it.

A caveat to the title of the thread would be extra-biblical or post-biblical prophecy.
Post biblical?
what's that and where do we find such a concept?
Thanks
 
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rockytopva

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Stryder06

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My attitude is if it's in the bible I'm not disputing it.

A caveat to the title of the thread would be extra-biblical or post-biblical prophecy. That's really what's on for discussion (or at least if people want to debate whether OT and NT prophecy is legit - that's fine, just that at its core it's a topic aside from my OP).

Do you reject post-biblical prophecy, or simply scrutinize it?
 
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sunlover1

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Prophecies spoken after the 66 books of the bible were written.
What would prophecy have to do with when the writing was finished?
The gifts, recorded in 1 Corinthians, are how God manifests through His
body to speak to or heal others.
God wants to speak to His people just as much as He ever has!!
He created us FOR Him.
So surely He wants to speak to us.
:clap:
 
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Ecclectic79

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What would prophecy have to do with when the writing was finished?
The gifts, recorded in 1 Corinthians, are how God manifests through His
body to speak to or heal others.
God wants to speak to His people just as much as He ever has!!
He created us FOR Him.
So surely He wants to speak to us.
:clap:
To the substance of my OP, the problem I'm running into is John and Jane Doe Watcher, born circa 1970, who by all intents and purposes seem like wonderful bible-believing Christians, are on fire for the word and warning people against things outside of the bible, and yet the fruit of their visions is not only all too often nested neatly within their denomination but the visions spray the whole gamut of contemporary prophetic and end times theories - some of which blatantly contradict each other.

The problem I'm having is that I think there's something dubious about the yardstick by which people qualify prophetic dreams or even waking messages. It can be difficult to tell for those who haven't all out had God speak to them where imagination or pizza before sleep ends and actual prophecy begins. The stuff in the bible has been sifted out already and 1) I believe it to be edified by scrutiny and 2) I believe the 66/73 versions to be divinely inspired thus the very selections weren't chance. Yes, in Isaiah's day there were tons of false prophets but I do not see John or Jane Doe Watcher as being part of that phenomena, if anything they're overeager to call dream visions prophetic because they want to believe that they have a more direct or hands-on role in the salvation program (or I should say in a more gratifying and direct manner) than trying to work the angles from airidity, thus I think what might happen is what they tell themselves gets believed by them to the extent that they start telling other people. I'm not saying that there is never some inspiration mixed in, just that people can't tell where that starts or ends unless they've had such a loudly prophetic dream or vision that they'd have zero chance of mistaking it again.

So - while I'm sure there is modern day prophecy that's legit, so much of it is buried under a flood of well-intended but misguided intent, to the point where its incredibly difficult to find even among the best known out there right now.
 
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sunlover1

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Can one truly rest in Christ if they neglect the instructions He has given us through His word?

If prophecy is despised, how can one rest in Christ?
Resting in Him, for me, is to just submit to His will, knowing that
His desire is for life and that where HE is there is rest.

I don't know if I answered you because I don't understand your question! lol

To the substance of my OP, the problem I'm running into is John and Jane Doe Watcher, born circa 1970, who by all intents and purposes seem like wonderful bible-believing Christians, are on fire for the word and warning people against things outside of the bible, and yet the fruit of their visions is not only all too often nested neatly within their denomination but the visions spray the whole gamut of contemporary prophetic and end times theories - some of which blatantly contradict each other.
If prophecies contradict each other then they're probably from the flesh.
The problem I'm having is that I think there's something dubious about the yardstick by which people qualify prophetic dreams or even waking messages.
Well people are carnal and misguided in many things,
so I'm sure that happens in regard to prophetic as well.


It can be difficult to tell for those who haven't all out had God speak to them where imagination or pizza before sleep ends and actual prophecy begins.
I'm sure it can.
But when GOD speaks (no matter the means used) you KNOW that you know.
It's a "wow" moment lol

The stuff in the bible has been sifted out already and 1) I believe it to be edified by scrutiny and 2) I believe the 66/73 versions to be divinely inspired thus the very selections weren't chance. Yes, in Isaiah's day there were tons of false prophets but I do not see John or Jane Doe Watcher as being part of that phenomena, if anything they're overeager to call dream visions prophetic because they want to believe that they have a more direct or hands-on role in the salvation program (or I should say in a more gratifying and direct manner) than trying to work the angles from airidity, thus I think what might happen is what they tell themselves gets believed by them to the extent that they start telling other people. I'm not saying that there is never some inspiration mixed in, just that people can't tell where that starts or ends unless they've had such a loudly prophetic dream or vision that they'd have zero chance of mistaking it again.
Prophesy and Scripture are two different things but share a common "author".

So - while I'm sure there is modern day prophecy that's legit, so much of it is buried under a flood of well-intended but misguided intent, to the point where its incredibly difficult to find even among the best known out there right now.
I'm not sure if I follow your meaning, so forgive me if I miss it, but I don't
follow prophets, I follow God.
God will USE men to speak to us in many ways, and one of those ways is
through prophecy.
Perhaps the word "prophecy" is being used in a looser sense here than in the Bible?

Do you believe in the "office of the prophet"?
Bibles shows it in Eph 4 iirc.
 
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