If you followed OSAS...

[HannahElizaW]

If you (whether you really do or not) followed/accepted/etc. the doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved' and someone of the same belief came to you struggling with a lot of sin in their life and contemplating/doubting over their salvation...

what would you tell them?

 

[Albion]

If you (whether you really do or not) followed/accepted/etc. the doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved' and someone of the same belief came to you struggling with a lot of sin in their life and contemplating/doubting over their salvation...

what would you tell them?

Exactly the same thing as I would if I did NOT believe in "OSAS."

 

[Sketcher]

I'd ask questions and share Biblical truths as appropriate to their situation.

 

[Rick Otto]

Of grieving the Holy Spirit, and loss of rewards in Heaven.
How ' bout you?

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

Why do some Christians believe in OSAS? Jesus said repent throughout Revelation 2-3 and even told us He will remove their name from the book of life if they don't overcome. Revelation 3:5

Real Christians that overcome sin are born again and do not willfully practise sin anymore. 1 John 3:9.

 

[Albion]

Why do some Christians believe in OSAS?

Because there is plenty in Scripture to the effect that God has predetermined at least some things to happen and, specifically, that he has chosen certain people, referred to as his "Elect." Jesus said that those could not be taken from him.

One word of caution...There is much in Scripture that tells of what God wants everyone to do because it's right in itself, and of the consequences of sin and the future of sinners. This does not always imply, as we often assume, that the people once were saved but then lost it.

 

[Rick Otto]

Why do some Christians believe in OSAS? Jesus said repent throughout Revelation 2-3 and even told us He will remove their name from the book of life if they don't overcome. Revelation 3:5

Real Christians that overcome sin are born again and do not willfully practise sin anymore. 1 John 3:9.

How well you doin' with that, bro?

 

[DiscipleHeLovesToo]

If you (whether you really do or not) followed/accepted/etc. the doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved' and someone of the same belief came to you struggling with a lot of sin in their life and contemplating/doubting over their salvation...

what would you tell them?

2Co 5:17-19 KJV
(17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
(18) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
(19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God is the Savior, and He made salvation through Jesus available some 2000 years ago - all the sins of all the people you might talk to in this life were future sins from His perspective - so how can sins reverse spiritual rebirth if all sins have been paid for in advance? salvation in this life however, can be 'lost' through sins in this life, even though eternal life is not lost - if you're reborn in Christ and cheat on your taxes, the IRS won't care that you still have eternal life - but if you're reborn in Christ, your eternal life is not jeopardized.

Joh 10:27-29 KJV
(27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
(28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

'no man', not 'no man except...'

also, on Hebrews 6:

http://www.christianforums.com/goto/post?id=68570297#post-68570297

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

Because there is plenty in Scripture to the effect that God has predetermined at least some things to happen and, specifically, that he has chosen certain people, referred to as his "Elect." Jesus said that those could not be taken from him.

Those that cannot be snatch from Him are those who obey His commandments (My sheep hear my voice) and follow Him. These have been ordained by God, John 10:29, Philippians 1:6.

Sinners don't follow Christ and are not His sheep, even if they call themselves christians. They don't follow Christ, they follow the sins of the world, Matthew 7:21-23.

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Rick Otto]

How well you doin' with that, bro?

Still wondering.

 

[Albion]

Those that cannot be snatch from Him are those who obey His commandments

In other words, they CAN BE snatched from his hand. Hmmm. No, I don't think that's the answer.

John 10:27-29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

This does not qualify their security in the way you're proposing or make it temporary or conditional. They hear and follow. It doesn't say IF they follow, they'll be secure. They have been given eternal life.

However, that's just one a number of passages which speak of the security of the believers.

 

[aiki]

If you (whether you really do or not) followed/accepted/etc. the doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved' and someone of the same belief came to you struggling with a lot of sin in their life and contemplating/doubting over their salvation...

what would you tell them?

Ephesians 1:3-7
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

God "accepts us in the beloved" who is Christ because of what he did on the cross, not because of any good deed we do. No one deserves salvation. No one can earn salvation. And no one remains saved because they are good enough. Our acceptance with God is found in Christ, not our good deeds. This never changes. A person, therefore, who fears the loss of their salvation does not understand the basis upon which they are saved.

Selah.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If you (whether you really do or not) followed/accepted/etc. the doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved' and someone of the same belief came to you struggling with a lot of sin in their life and contemplating/doubting over their salvation...

what would you tell them?

My advice is to pray. God loves it when we seek Him. And what he also wants is that in faith we wait for an answer. The Lord tells us "Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door will be open. Ask and it shall be given". I think many people think that they have to be perfect to seek God, but no one is. We all do dumb, sinful things, but through the power of the Holy Spirit God teaches us. That's what God really wants from us; for us to seek Him earnestly, have faith that He will answer us and to get to know Him through His Word and prayer.

Don't let people fill your mind with all these conclustions of if you sin or whatever when you first start off with God. Many of these have been a Christian for 15 years or more and are at a way different point than you seem to be in your relationship with God. They will deflect onto you what they are working on maybe in their own life or deflect onto you what their own pastor preaches about a lot.

In the end, it's YOU and GOD. He is there with you always, your God, your best friend and the One who will never leave you or forsake you. Start with the things I said above and you will be fine.

Be blessed.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

In other words, they CAN BE snatched from his hand. Hmmm. No, I don't think that's the answer.

That's not what it's saying. In John 10, Jesus divides christians into two groups: those who choose to obey His words and those who are not yet following in obedience. The ones that cannot be snatched away by any man are those who on their own free will chose to follow Him and walk in the light as He is in the light, (1 John 1:5-7). These are His sheep who He knows personally in a relationship, (John 14:21-23).

The second group of sheep (John 10:16) are christians also but are not yet following Christ in obedience. These can be easily lead astray and there's quite a few on CF in this category that has not come to know this.

This does not qualify their security in the way you're proposing or make it temporary or conditional. They hear and follow. It doesn't say IF they follow, they'll be secure. They have been given eternal life.

However, that's just one a number of passages which speak of the security of the believers.

John 10:27-29 is not about eternal security, it has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's all about a personal relationship, one based upon obedience in His word. John 14:21-23 is very explicit. You do His commandments, you will be loved by the Father and Son. Because they love you, they will come to live inside you as the holy spirit. This is the relationship and how it begins. That's what "My sheep hears my voice and I know them" means.

If you don't follow in obedience, there is not relationship. Christ will not come to live with willful sinners. Out of your own free will, you have to choose to follow Him first before He comes to you as the holy spirit. This is the second group of sheep that are currently lost, (John 10:16).

John 14:21-23
21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

They have been given eternal life.

In the bible, eternal life is not immortality, it's a personal relationship with God, (John 17:3).

John 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (Relationship with God)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Immortality)

Eternal life (relationship with God) is attain by following His commandments, (John 14:21-23, Matthew 19:16-21).

Matthew 19:16-22
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

This does not qualify their security in the way you're proposing or make it temporary or conditional.

Of course it's conditional, it's 110% conditional because it's all based on your free will.

You choose to follow Him, you are being saved. You choose to follow sin, you perish, (John 8:24, Luke 13:3, Romans 2:12, Matthew 5:30). You deny Him/His commandments, He will deny you, (2 Timothy 2:12, Matthew 10:33).

If you on your own free will choose to fall away that not even the holy spirit can convict you that you may be save, it's impossible for God to save you unless He takes away your free will and make you a robot. Then you no longer is a son or daughter of God.

God will not remove anyone's ability to decide on their own. You don't have to be perfect but if you don't make an effort to turn from sin, you end up in hell (whose end is to be burned). Christ's gift of salvation comes with a condition: keep my commandments, (John 14:21-23).

Hebrews 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

 

[St_Worm2]

Christ will not come to live with willful sinners. Out of your own free will, you have to choose to follow Him first before He comes to you as the holy spirit.

Well, there is this to consider........

"To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" ~Rom 4:5

"Jesus said to them, 'It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.'” ~Mk 2:17
​

Plus, how can a non-believer or "natural man" possibly hope to make that choice apart from Christ because:

"A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." ~1 Cor 2:14​

The second group of sheep (John 10:16) are christians also but are not yet following Christ in obedience. These can be easily lead astray and there's quite a few on CF in this category ... this second group of sheep are currently lost (John 10:16).

John 10 doesn't speak of sheep that are lost or disobedient. The "lost" are the ones who are not sheep, not believers (John 10:26).

BTW, the "other sheep" that Jesus speaks of in John 10:16 are Gentile believers (i.e. Acts 13:46-48). Jesus' ministry while He was among us was to Israel alone, not to the Nations. Jesus' sheep are both Jews AND Greeks. Neither group is any more "Christian" (or more Christ-like in their behavior) than the other group is.

These are some of the things that characterize ALL of Jesus' "sheep", both Jew and Gentile: 1) He knows them 2) they know Him 3) they hear and recognize His voice 4) they believe 5) they follow/obey Him 6) they have been given eternal life 7) they will never perish (John 10:14-16; John 10:26-28).

Eternal life (relationship with God) is attained by following His commandments

Well.....

"God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ~Jn 3:16

“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." ~Jn 3:18

"He who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." ~Jn 5:24

"These have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name." ~Jn 20:31

"We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law" ~Rom 3:28

"To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" ~Rom 4:5

"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." ~Rom 10:9-10

"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." ~Eph 2:8-9

"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy..." ~Titus 3:5

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." ~1 Jn 5:13​

We cannot choose to be obedient to 'become' Christians, we choose to be obedient because we already are

That's plenty for now. I'll finish my reply to the rest of your post later today.

Yours and His,
David

 

[St_Worm2]

If you (whether you really do or not) followed/accepted/etc. the doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved' and someone of the same belief came to you struggling with a lot of sin in their life and contemplating/doubting over their salvation...what would you tell them?

Hi Hannah, first off, I agree with Albion's reply in post #2. And I would never tell them to just forget about the fact that they've sinned because they believe themselves to be OSAS True Christians don't "practice" or make a "lifestyle" out of sinning like they used to do .. 1 John 3:9. If they do, and especially if they're living their lives just like they were before they said they became Christians, chances are very good that their "claim" of being a Christian is no more than that!

Advice-wise, I would probably tell them to repent, and to trust God's word and keep fighting the temptations that are besetting them (2 Corinthians 10:5; Ephesians 6:10-18; James 4:7). If they give in to them and sin again, I would remind them that they need to repent, ask God for forgiveness (1 John 1:8 - 2:2 .. esp v1:9), trust that He has done just that, and then get right back to work as a Christian

I would also pray for them, remind them to trust their loving Abba, Father (who saved them to begin with and has promised to see them through this life to Glory .. Philippians 1:6; Hebrews 7:25), and I'd offer them some practical advice/help if I knew of something that might help.

This is assuming that the one struggling with sin is truly a Christian, and not just someone who "claims" to be one (as I already mentioned). The thing about being, "Always Saved", is that you have to actually be, "Saved", first (or the "Always Saved" part is meaningless).

Yours and His,
David

 

[Albion]

That's not what it's saying. In John 10, Jesus divides christians into two groups: those who choose to obey His words and those who are not yet following in obedience. The ones that cannot be snatched away by any man are those who on their own free will chose to follow Him and walk in the light as He is in the light, (1 John 1:5-7). These are His sheep who He knows personally in a relationship, (John 14:21-23).

Well, this ^ is your theory.

It is just as likely that what Jesus says in one place in Scripture is not meant to be a repeat of what he was teaching in another.

Personally, I consider your theory to be incorrect on its face because Jesus is clearly saying that these people cannot be taken from him, whereas you are trying to make it say "unless they do the following." The two ideas (cannot and might not) are not compatible but have mutually exclusive meanings.

 

[Rick Otto]

That's not what it's saying. In John 10, Jesus divides christians into two groups: those who choose to obey His words and those who are not yet following in obedience. The ones that cannot be snatched away by any man are those who on their own free will chose to follow Him and walk in the light as He is in the light, (1 John 1:5-7). These are His sheep who He knows personally in a relationship, (John 14:21-23).

The second group of sheep (John 10:16) are christians also but are not yet following Christ in obedience. These can be easily lead astray and there's quite a few on CF in this category that has not come to know this.



John 10:27-29 is not about eternal security, it has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's all about a personal relationship, one based upon obedience in His word. John 14:21-23 is very explicit. You do His commandments, you will be loved by the Father and Son. Because they love you, they will come to live inside you as the holy spirit. This is the relationship and how it begins. That's what "My sheep hears my voice and I know them" means.

If you don't follow in obedience, there is not relationship. Christ will not come to live with willful sinners. Out of your own free will, you have to choose to follow Him first before He comes to you as the holy spirit. This is the second group of sheep that are currently lost, (John 10:16).

John 14:21-23
21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.



In the bible, eternal life is not immortality, it's a personal relationship with God, (John 17:3).

John 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (Relationship with God)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Immortality)

Eternal life (relationship with God) is attain by following His commandments, (John 14:21-23, Matthew 19:16-21).

Matthew 19:16-22
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.



Of course it's conditional, it's 110% conditional because it's all based on your free will.

You choose to follow Him, you are being saved. You choose to follow sin, you perish, (John 8:24, Luke 13:3, Romans 2:12, Matthew 5:30). You deny Him/His commandments, He will deny you, (2 Timothy 2:12, Matthew 10:33).

If you on your own free will choose to fall away that not even the holy spirit can convict you that you may be save, it's impossible for God to save you unless He takes away your free will and make you a robot. Then you no longer is a son or daughter of God.

God will not remove anyone's ability to decide on their own. You don't have to be perfect but if you don't make an effort to turn from sin, you end up in hell (whose end is to be burned). Christ's gift of salvation comes with a condition: keep my commandments, (John 14:21-23).

Hebrews 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

It's conditional, but not toward salvation, rather towards the quality thereof as rewards in heaven are affected. Entrance to heaven is not a reward. Sheep don't become goats.
Once Sheep Always Sheep

 

[aiki]

.

 

[aiki]

Real Christians that overcome sin are born again and do not willfully practise sin anymore. 1 John 3:9.

So, reconcile what you've written here with the following verses:

Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Who is Paul writing to here? Christians in the church at Galatia.

Romans 7:15-23
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

If, as you say, real Christians no longer sin, then what is Paul describing here? He must be describing himself in a saved condition because he writes of "delighting in the law of God according to the inward man," which an unbeliever, who is "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph.2:1), would not do.

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The apostle John is writing to believers in his first letter, not the spiritually unregenerate. It seems he is telling them that none of them can make the very claim to sinless perfection you say they must make if they are true Christians.

Selah.