If we are all sinners (and we are), how can we get into Heaven where there is "no impure thing"?

Zaha Torte

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The Mormons I met in Hong Kong were very nice
people. I found their beliefs weird, but then, we have our
dragons and things.

Its rude and totally unjustified to call me a liar and hypocrite. And then you threaten me.

You've altered for the worse my
impressilon of mormons.

"Mormon" btw is in the Oxford dictionary as the religion
founded by J. Smith, and I find them more authoritative than any internet rando.

Go ahead and report now. Be sure to include
mention of your false and invidious allegations,
and, your hviing threatened me.
You don't believe it was rude and totally unjustified of you to continue to refer to me as a "Mormon" after I explained that it was a derogatory term and asked you not to?

You don't think that I am well within my rights to decide what to believe or not, and also to report people who violate this site's rules of conduct?

And to be clear - a warning is not the same thing as a threat.

Why don't you try to explain to me why it is so important for you to refer to me as a "Mormon"?

I get the feeling that you think that a "nice" person is someone that lets you walk all over them.

I don't know about the "Mormons" you met - but I'm not going to do that.
 
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discombobulated1

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I primarily reject the title protestant. I believe in the validity of the mother church. I am "small c" catholic.

I thought the Promised Holy Spirit worked on us like clay, per scripture? Do you know what the actual word Devil translates to?

What does 1 John 1:8 have to say on this topic?

Notice it says (Your), not (Other peoples).... is it possible that God through Paul knew what He was doing when that was written?
I didn't know I was focused on other people' sins...

hmmm... where did I say that?

And i have my own interpretation of that Lord, Lord psg.. about how not all who say that will enter Heaven.
 
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Estrid

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You don't believe it was rude and totally unjustified of you to continue to refer to me as a "Mormon" after I explained that it was a derogatory term and asked you not to?

You don't think that I am well within my rights to decide what to believe or not, and also to report people who violate this site's rules of conduct?

And to be clear - a warning is not the same thing as a threat.

Why don't you try to explain to me why it is so important for you to refer to me as a "Mormon"?

I get the feeling that you think that a "nice" person is someone that lets you walk all over them.

I don't know about the "Mormons" you met - but I'm not going to do that.
To your earlier ( false, and invidious) claims that I'm
a liar and hypocrite, you've now added the false charge that
I deny try to your right to belief, that I want people to be doormats, that i lied about speaking to mormons in
Hong Kong, that I attach "importance" to using the
word mormon other than using correct std English,
and that I violated forums rules. You're making it all up! !

Leading authorities consider such to be negative
behaviour.

Your attention might be more profitably be
directed inward than on trying to change the Oxford dictionary. Or spin fantasies about my character.
 
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Zaha Torte

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I didn't know I was focused on other people' sins...

hmmm... where did I say that?

And i have my own interpretation of that Lord, Lord psg.. about how not all who say that will enter Heaven.
I always interpreted those verses to mean that those who believed that their own works would profit the Lord would be denied.

Rather than acknowledging that He was the one who saved them - they were proclaiming the worth of their own deeds - as if they were the source of their salvation.
 
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Zaha Torte

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To your earlier ( false, and invidious) claims that I'm a liar and hypocrite
You have given me no reason to believe that you have actually read the Book of Mormon or any other publication of the LDS Church.

You insisting to refer to me as a "Mormon" - even after I asked you not to - and your other comments make me feel as though you have some animosity toward the LDS Church and its members.
you've now added the false charge that I deny try to your right to belief
I never said that.

You claimed that I was "rude and totally unjustified" for not believing your claim that you had read the Book of Mormon.

I was merely pointing out that I have the right to decide what to believe.

I chose to believe that you have not read the Book of Mormon based on your behavior.

I did not claim that you tried to deny my right to believe in regard to faith or religion.
that I want people to be doormats
You have been nothing but rude to me and you became increasingly belligerent the more I defended myself.

Your behavior has led me to believe that you are not used to people standing up to you and calling out your inappropriate behavior.
that i lied about speaking to mormons in Hong Kong
I never claimed that.

I put the term "Mormons" in quotes because that was the term that you used to describe those people and it is one that I would rather not use myself.

They were not sarcasm quotes. I was literally quoting you.
that I attach "importance" to using the word mormon other than using correct std English
The term "Mormon" is not the correct designation for members of my faith. It never has been.

Your behavior has showcased that it is very important to you to be able to use that derogatory term.
and that I violated forums rules. You're making it all up! !
You have been very rude to me and using a nickname to describe members of my faith - both are violations of the forum rules.
Leading authorities consider such to be negative behaviour.

Your attention might be more profitably be
directed inward than on trying to change the Oxford dictionary. Or spin fantasies about my character.
I would like for you to not respond to my posts anymore.

I will not report you immediately if you do - but if I start to feel harassed I will.

God bless you.
 
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Estrid

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You have given me no reason to believe that you have actually read the Book of Mormon or any other publication of the LDS Church.

You insisting to refer to me as a "Mormon" - even after I asked you not to - and your other comments make me feel as though you have some animosity toward the LDS Church and its members.

I never said that.

You claimed that I was "rude and totally unjustified" for not believing your claim that you had read the Book of Mormon.

I was merely pointing out that I have the right to decide what to believe.

I chose to believe that you have not read the Book of Mormon based on your behavior.

I did not claim that you tried to deny my right to believe in regard to faith or religion.

You have been nothing but rude to me and you became increasingly belligerent the more I defended myself.

Your behavior has led me to believe that you are not used to people standing up to you and calling out your inappropriate behavior.

I never claimed that.

I put the term "Mormons" in quotes because that was the term that you used to describe those people and it is one that I would rather not use myself.

They were not sarcasm quotes. I was literally quoting you.

The term "Mormon" is not the correct designation for members of my faith. It never has been.

Your behavior has showcased that it is very important to you to be able to use that derogatory term.

You have been very rude to me and using a nickname to describe members of my faith - both are violations of the forum rules.

I would like for you to not respond to my posts anymore.

I will not report you immediately if you do - but if I start to feel harassed I will.

God bless you.
Threatening a woman is one way to get the last word.

It shall come to pass that you go on ignore.
I recommend that you follow the example.
 
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Grip Docility

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I didn't know I was focused on other people' sins...

hmmm... where did I say that?

And i have my own interpretation of that Lord, Lord psg.. about how not all who say that will enter Heaven.
It is by Faith, rooted in sincere Repentance. (Change ones mind to The sufficiency of Jesus, from the failings of our flesh)... Then, The potter goes to work from within. It is well that you are sincere. Provocative thread. Well done.
 
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discombobulated1

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It is by Faith, rooted in sincere Repentance. (Change ones mind to The sufficiency of Jesus, from the failings of our flesh)... Then, The potter goes to work from within. It is well that you are sincere. Provocative thread. Well done.
I'm kind of amused w/ this

It just seems funny (odd) that I started this thread and now, here we are talking about Mormons! I am a devout Roman Catholic who has studied my faith rather in-depth.

Jesus said that Few find the Narrow Way to Heaven

Yet it is amazing that we have all these once-saved-always-saved folks, apparently, going on and on about how humans cannotsave themselves. Well, Who does not know that?

Jesus died on a cross, paying the penalty for our sins. But how does that translate into: you don't have to DO anything? no good works... no working out your salvation w/ fear and trembling... (Phil 2:12)... nope, Jesus did everything. All I have to do is accept it

Where is that in the Bible? It isn't!

(not that Catholics are sola scriptura...)

it scares me to think of all the false religions there are in the world, many of which claim to be Christian, but they teach grave error. JESUS SAID FEW MAKE it

so that tosses out the once saved always saved nonsense right there
 
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Grip Docility

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I'm kind of amused w/ this
I just saw Joe Pesci from Good Fellas in my mind... asking... Do I amuse you? Do you think I'm Funny?
It just seems funny (odd) that I started this thread and now, here we are talking about Mormons! I am a devout Roman Catholic who has studied my faith rather in-depth.
I have not now, nor ever worn secret Mormon Under ware. You are barking up the wrong tree. (If you study all doctrines of major fractures you'll know. If you don't, well.... you should... it's entertaining)
Jesus said that Few find the Narrow Way to Heaven
You employed tongue and cheek... so I respond... Is this where you tell me how to become one of the only 144,000 that are saved from all of exsistance?
Yet it is amazing that we have all these once-saved-always-saved folks, apparently, going on and on about how humans cannotsave themselves. Well, Who does not know that?
OSAS couldn't be so. John 6:66 and 2 Peter 2:20 (But scripture is only under God in Authority). I do believe in the power of one teeny weenie Itsy bitsy Mustard Seed. Ezekiel 33:11 disproves the God installed (Unable to Believe Switches).
Jesus died on a cross, paying the penalty for our sins. But how does that translate into: you don't have to DO anything? no good works... no working out your salvation w/ fear and trembling... (Phil 2:12)... nope, Jesus did everything. All I have to do is accept it
Whoa there, buddy! You're asking too many questions.... or are you? Is God Logical, or an author of confusion?
Where is that in the Bible? It isn't!
Ephesians 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
Romans 3:22 —that is, God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ,[a] to all who believe, since there is no distinction. 23 For all have sinned and fall short of the[b] glory of God. 24 They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Him as a propitiation[c] through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. 26 God presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous[d] the one who has faith in Jesus.​
Ephesians 2:5 5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!
Romans 4:6 16 This is why the promise is by faith, so that it may be according to grace, to guarantee it to all the descendants—not only to those who are of the law[a] but also to those who are of Abraham’s faith. He is the father of us all​
John 1:12-13
12 But to all who did receive Him,
He gave them the right to be[a] children of God,
to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born,
not of blood,[b]
or of the will of the flesh,
or of the will of man,[c]
but of God.
James 1:16 Don’t be deceived, my dearly loved brothers. 17 Every generous act and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights; with Him there is no variation or shadow cast by turning. 18 By His own choice, He gave us a new birth by the message of truth[a] so that we would be the firstfruits of His creatures.​
I can keep going and going, and ... proof context, lingual proof through original language... Cross Reference. I can use only the Old Testament, if you desire.... though Paul will be helping me explain the implications of the passages.

Did you get that Hopelessness for the Hopeless edition of the Bible that has all that faith stuff removed?
(not that Catholics are sola scriptura...)

it scares me to think of all the false religions there are in the world, many of which claim to be Christian, but they teach grave error. JESUS SAID FEW MAKE it
Over 50,000 fractures and growing... and Every one of them are irrefutably correct... ... .... that they all disagree with each other.
so that tosses out the once saved always saved nonsense right there
I think that the 66 or 73 (Pick your Deuterocanonical or non Deuterocanonical Choice) books have a much better "Plan" that is far more dependable than OSAS, anyhow.
 
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stevenfrancis

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In Revelation it says that no impure thing will enter Heaven.

Well, all humans are impure. So virtually all humans are headed for Hell.

In a sense, every single human who ever lived or ever will live is on his/her way to Hell, pretty much from birth (or age 7...). Yet some people stop that head-long process toward eternal doom.

The thing is, how does one do that?

You have the world, the flesh and the devil fighting against you every step of the way.

The last one listed is the worst. That so and so has been around "forever" and knows all the tricks in the book. And bad news: he is more intelligent than any human who ever lived, save Jesus (who is God).

Abandon all hope.. (is what things look like) :(

Yet some say all we have to do is accept Jesus... whatever that may mean (entirely). Um... no, that is not what the Word says. Jesus said that Few find the narrow way to Heaven. Mt 7:21... Lk 13:24 (etc) and that not all who say Lord, Lord will enter
First: Christians, if they are in fact what they profess to be, believe on Christ, and have been redeemed through Christ's blood. Having said that, we are still fallen, and will need a little spiffing up at the end. There is a purification process after death and before entering into eternal life with God, and available only to those who will be entering into eternal life with God to begin with (followers of Christ who continually recognized and were repentant for their sins, as they were committed, even unto death). In Catholicism we have a word which is a short hand for this process. "Purgatory". Other faith traditions might use a different word or descriptions, but ultimately, will have some understanding that this process exists, and is necessary. If nothing else, at least some kind of vague reckoning with 1 Corinthians 3:13 -15, and other such passages. No one knows how long it is, or what it really looks or feels like. Just that it prepares the soul for encounter with God.

The damned on the other hand would have no need to be purified anymore to be before God, since their destiny would involve eternal separation from God, so they'll just move on to their reward.

This is my understanding of the thing. No need to despair.
 
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In Revelation it says that no impure thing will enter Heaven.

Well, all humans are impure. So virtually all humans are headed for Hell.

In a sense, every single human who ever lived or ever will live is on his/her way to Hell, pretty much from birth (or age 7...). Yet some people stop that head-long process toward eternal doom.

The thing is, how does one do that?

You have the world, the flesh and the devil fighting against you every step of the way.

The last one listed is the worst. That so and so has been around "forever" and knows all the tricks in the book. And bad news: he is more intelligent than any human who ever lived, save Jesus (who is God).

Abandon all hope.. (is what things look like) :(

Yet some say all we have to do is accept Jesus... whatever that may mean (entirely). Um... no, that is not what the Word says. Jesus said that Few find the narrow way to Heaven. Mt 7:21... Lk 13:24 (etc) and that not all who say Lord, Lord will enter
Jesus said I am the way truth and life no one comes but through me

If we are all guilty. what way other than Jesus can our guilt be removed?
 
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Zaha Torte

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Jesus said I am the way truth and life no one comes but through me

If we are all guilty. what way other than Jesus can our guilt be removed?
There is no other way.
 
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Estrid

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Jesus said I am the way truth and life no one comes but through me

If we are all guilty. what way other than Jesus can our guilt be removed?
I feel sorry for Christians sometimes.
 
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CoreyD

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In Revelation it says that no impure thing will enter Heaven.

Well, all humans are impure. So virtually all humans are headed for Hell.

In a sense, every single human who ever lived or ever will live is on his/her way to Hell, pretty much from birth (or age 7...). Yet some people stop that head-long process toward eternal doom.

The thing is, how does one do that?

You have the world, the flesh and the devil fighting against you every step of the way.

The last one listed is the worst. That so and so has been around "forever" and knows all the tricks in the book. And bad news: he is more intelligent than any human who ever lived, save Jesus (who is God).

Abandon all hope.. (is what things look like) :(

Yet some say all we have to do is accept Jesus... whatever that may mean (entirely). Um... no, that is not what the Word says. Jesus said that Few find the narrow way to Heaven. Mt 7:21... Lk 13:24 (etc) and that not all who say Lord, Lord will enter
This is a very good question, and you made some very good observations.

Those who go to heaven...
  1. are born anew. This means they die to their former course of life at their baptism, and are born anew by the spirit. John 3:3-8; Romans 6:1-5; 2 Corinthians 5:17; 1 Peter 1:3, 4; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 John 3:9
  2. must die physically. They die, and therefore sin is no longer "alive" in them, because they no longer are alive in a state of Adam's offspring. Actually, they are gone, until God gives brings them to life, giving them a new body- not a physical sinful body, but an immortal spirit body. 1 Corinthians 15:35-50; Romans 6:7
 
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CoreyD

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You don't have the authority to dictate what we refer to ourselves as.

There are many people who do not believe that a "dude" named Jesus Christ ever existed - does that now mean we can tell all Christians that they are not what they claim to be?

I understand that in our delusional world where a "woman" can be anything someone wants it to mean - you could make this argument - but I exist in reality.

Whether or not you believe that Mormon ever existed does not matter - because my Church was not named after him - it was named after the Lord Jesus Christ.

People who hated the LDS Church labelled them "Mormons" because they did not want them to be associated with the Lord Jesus Christ.

I would encourage you to read the Book of Mormon to see for yourself if he ever existed - rather than rely on the testimony of others.

Sincerely study the Book of Mormon - pray about it in humility - having faith in Christ - and I know that the Holy Spirit will testify of the truthfulness of that book to you.
Thanks for this information.
I did not know about it, and checked a secular source. Mormon (Book of Mormon prophet) - Wikipedia

I had heard that people like to, or prefer to go by hearsay, rather than go to those who would know - the actual source of the doctrine.
I came to experience it for myself, when I started talking to people.

People like running with stories, so they can say anything malicious about those they dislike.
 
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CoreyD

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The name of the Church has always been the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - that is what it was called since it was founded on April 6th, 1830.

The members of the LDS Church were termed "Mormon" by those who hated them.

That term was the only recognizable term for quite a long time - but that was never the name of the LDS Church - and it is only recently that the members of the LDS Church have made a concerted effort to be called by our rightful name.

You don't have to agree with me - you'd be ignoring the facts if you did - but I will report you or anyone who keeps referring to me by the term "Mormon" after I have informed them of the history of that term and my preference.
I'm checking up what you say, from secular sources, and I can see how what you are saying would be true.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, informally known as the LDS Church or Mormon Church, is a restorationist, nontrinitarian Christian denomination that is the largest denomination in the Latter Day Saint movement.​
Joseph Smith formally organized the church as the Church of Christ, on April 6, 1830, in western New York; the church's name was later changed to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. : 627 n. 73  Initial converts were drawn to the church in part because of the newly published Book of Mormon, a self-described chronicle of indigenous American prophets that Smith said he had translated from golden plates.​

The terminology preferred by the church itself has varied over time. At various points, the church has embraced the term Mormon and stated that other sects within the shared faith tradition should not be called Mormon.[8]
The word Mormon was initially coined to describe any person who believes in the Book of Mormon as a scripture volume. Mormonite and Mormon were originally descriptive terms used both by outsiders to the faith, church members, and occasionally church leaders.[9][better source needed] The term Mormon later was sometimes used derogatorily; such use may have developed during the 1838 Mormon War,[10] although church members and leaders "embraced the term", according to church historian Matthew Bowman, and by the end of the 1800s it was broadly used.[11]

I think what is happening here, is that persons might not have thoroughly research this, and may be speaking with limited knowledge.
Also, there may be a need to try to understand.

From what is stated here:
After Smith's death in 1844, the movement split into several groups following different leaders; the majority followed Brigham Young, while smaller groups followed Joseph Smith III, Sidney Rigdon, and James Strang. Most of these smaller groups eventually merged into the Community of Christ, and the term Mormon typically refers to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), as today, this branch is far larger than all the others combined. People who identify as Mormons may also be independently religious, secular, and non-practicing or belong to other denominations. Since 2018, the LDS Church has emphasized a desire for its members be referred to as "members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", or more simply as "Latter-day Saints".[3]

What I understand from this, is, while some sects, or members of Latter Day Saints, or breakaways may have accepted the term Mormon, it was not recognized by the main group, or it's leaders.
I can understand that, because individuals of a group might not have a clear understanding of the religion they belong to, and use terms in a way that is not acceptable to the leaders.

Worst yet, when you have splinter sects, going their own way, it's easy to see how the misunderstanding can expand, where the terminology is used loosely, and viewed as, or even accepted.

I hope I am at least close to understanding.
I accept any correction, from those on the inside, who know better than I do, and better than the secular world that sometimes do not fully grasp what they are considering.
Thanks again.


I can understand how you are feeling at this time.
I experienced something similar, and I know the feeling.
Most people are not reasonable though, so I think, we should expect and try to get used to that.
The Bible did prophecy that in the last days men would be "without natural affection, implacable, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, not lovers of those who are good". 2 timothy 3:3
 
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CoreyD

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Maybe not completely, since your heart is not mine, but yes, I do. I too feel for them sometimes, and have an idea what you are referring too.
I prefer not to spell it out at this moment though, so I hope you won't ask. :)

On second thought...
@Estrid does it have anything to do with how they are all one body in Christ, and yet they argue about every "blessed" thing in the Bible, and each have their own interpretation which is right, and the others are clearly wrong... Yet they are one body - Christians?
 
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