Icons and the last few years on CF

[Avodat]

I think we have to look at this from the perspective of Messianic Judaism not what one thinks it should be. That would depend which Messianic Judaism we are talking about and which one is affiliated with. And we also have to consider it from being Jewish since it's a Judaism that includes Gentiles. It's not a Judaism that includes Jews as Jews are already included to begin with.

This correlates how leaderships define and distinguish, depending what Messianic Judaism.

You talk to MJAA and UMJC leaderships and they have different views than let's say CTMOC.

So what Messianic Judaism are we discussing?

Is the purpose of this forum to create a Messianic Judaism of it's own?

The current SoP is very clear that this forum IS Torah Observant - it doesn't need to be debated and, in fact, it must NOT be debated according to the rules, so the parameters are already set!

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

The current SoP is very clear that this forum IS Torah Observant - it doesn't need to be debated and, in fact, it must NOT be debated according to the rules, so the parameters are already set!

I know that. As an example there are Messianic Jews who would say that the Torah is no longer binding but that doesn't indicate anything. One could believe that and yet still observe. Most Messianic Jews in this case come from secular-conversation backgrounds and never was raised that the Torah was BINDING yet still observe such as circumcising males on the 8th day as an example. They still observe the High Holidays etc.

Does that make them Torah negative?

And on the other hand you might have Messianic Jews who come from an orthodox background and might say the Torah is binding.

And on the other hand there might be a Messianic Jewish congregation who's focus isn't on Torah but Yeshua even though they read the Torah in services. Does this make them Torah negative?

Yes the SoP states that this a Torah positive forum. What defines Torah positive and Torah negative?

 

[Avodat]

I know that. As an example there are Messianic Jews who would say that the Torah is no longer binding but that doesn't indicate anything. One could believe that and yet still observe. Most Messianic Jews in this case come from secular-conversation backgrounds and never was raised that the Torah was BINDING yet still observe such as circumcising males on the 8th day as an example. They still observe the High Holidays etc.

Does that make them Torah negative?

And on the other hand you might have Messianic Jews who come from an orthodox background and might say the Torah is binding.

And on the other hand there might be a Messianic Jewish congregation who's focus isn't on Torah but Yeshua even though they read the Torah in services. Does this make them Torah negative?

Yes the SoP states that this a Torah positive forum. What defines Torah positive and Torah negative?

We are not allowed to debate variable observances of Torah - but that doesn't matter, in a sense, because real MJism is not about salvation by legalistic observance, it is about a willing obedience to G_d's word. For those times we un-wittingly fail in our obedience, as Torah tells us, there is now Yeshua's grace (though that doesn't cover wilful neglect in attempting to be obedient); prevenient grace, as offered by some, is an outmoded concept that has led the world to where it is today and the view that it doesn't really matter what we do, because 'we have a great get-out-of-jail card called 'grace'', from which was born the liberal wing of the Church, renowned as it is for its loose-leaf Bible view on key issues, and its anti-Paul and anti-Law theology.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think we have to look at this from the perspective of Messianic Judaism not what one thinks it should be. That would depend which Messianic Judaism we are talking about and which one is affiliated with. And we also have to consider it from being Jewish since it's a Judaism that includes Gentiles. It's not a Judaism that includes Jews as Jews are already included to begin with.

This correlates how leaderships define and distinguish, depending what Messianic Judaism.

You talk to MJAA and UMJC leaderships and they have different views than let's say CTMOC.

So what Messianic Judaism are we discussing?

Is the purpose of this forum to create a Messianic Judaism of it's own?

Truthfully, on that note...

Perhaps it'd be wise (for the groups you mentioned) to have their own FAITH Group forum altogether - just as there's room for this one - instead of having it be a Sub-Group issue.


It'd seem to me to be a wise thing to bring up - a forum with SUB-Forums for discussion and mirroring the one others are fighting for - and with an SoP for Messianic Jews/Gentiles like ourselves and others. That'd allow those who want to have discussion on things we see fit to do so WITHOUT being bothered - and allowing folks to operate amongst like-midned Messianics when it comes to dealing with others who don't value God's Law like folks in GT - yet it'd also allow for there to not be confusion in getting harassment or heckled by groups of Messianic Gentile culture who don't like MJAA, UMJC, those Messiancis working with Noahides or others they feel are not as "Torah Observant" (even if that's not the case in reality).

And in that move, it'd be a matter of seeing who wishes to come to which faith group. One Messianic already made another group for others like-minded to join called Grace-Based Messianic Judaism (not opposite of Torah Observant - but clearly with those disagreeing with other Messianics here) - and it did occur if perhaps another forum for all of those involved would be good since it seems this one often seems to run into the same issues without really being solved.


If others from the old Messianic Judaism forum wanted to come to the new one made - and try to subvert that one to be like theirs (for control purposes), it'd be very OBVIOUS that they are truly concerned with violating boundaries when they can't stay where they need to.......and being separate would allow us to have our OWN evolution in where we could go.

New relationships, open discussion - and Jews (Non-Jewish believers as well ...even if they may be a bit aggressive as unbelievers can be) being welcomed alongside others who are for Diversity in Messianic Judaism - from the Bridge Builders (i.e. Messianic Jews for Bridge - Building in the Church and Jewish culture...or those working with Samaritans, you get the picture). The story of LOT and Abraham separating came to mind since they were both TOO great (and too VASTLY different ) to exist in the same territory without Lot's shepherds always fighting against Abraham's - and thus, as noted in Genesis 13 , Abraham separated from Lot and blessed Him.

Looking back, I think some things noted by others were prophetic:

​

So, when you solve this issue, and separate out the two with individual icons, this situation will continue ad nauseum. Like it does over at CARM.​

I find that Christian forums have yet to respect the divisions between those of the Messianic faith. This has been my main focus of complaint. I don't fight to have one eradicated, I want respectable fences. Wow, and look who desires a 'fence'? There is a seat for Gentiles right next to Jews in this body. All this is Messianic 101 in my world. So the special identification for Gentiles is not needed. In my world.

In this forum, many Gentiles take on the image of the Jews. In this world I would imagine identification is required. But I don't live in that world.

As to the icon issue, I'm referring to the stark difference between Jews who were born into a form of Judaism and now accept the Gospel of Yeshua, and the Gentiles who were born into a form of Christianity and now reject that to embrace Torah observance as Israel. There are two extreme ends to this forum, Jewish Christians and Torah observant Gentiles (one law). The two can never meet, as they are diametrically opposed in their theologies. YET, we hold the same icon. So, when you solve this issue, and separate out the two with individual icons, this situation will continue ad nauseum. Like it does over at CARM.

I find that Christian forums have yet to respect the divisions between those of the Messianic faith. This has been my main focus of complaint. I don't fight to have one eradicated, I want respectable fences.



​

​

So perhaps fighting to have another Faith Group for the Messianic Judaism separate from this forum - with its OWN Sub-forums and discussion places - would be a good thing.

 

[muffler dragon]

Noahide was invented by rabbinic Judaism to control Gentiles thru a co op government( meaning they are really in charge behind the scenes)

Interesting perspective. Wrong, but interesting.

 

[annier]

Interesting perspective. Wrong, but interesting.

md, does Judaism in General find Noachides to be of either of these two categories?
1.Torah negative
2. Antisemitic

 

[visionary]

md, does Judaism in General find Noachides to be of either of these two categories?
1.Torah negative
2. Antisemitic

or mostly political ?

 

[muffler dragon]

md, does Judaism in General find Noachides to be of either of these two categories?
1.Torah negative
2. Antisemitic

Speaking simply from my experience and opinion...

1) Not at all. It's a different understanding of expectation and pursuance.
2) I haven't seen nor read anything that can be construed as such. However, admittedly, I'm skeptical of my sources before I vet them for any sort of personal validity.

 

[muffler dragon]

or mostly political ?

In what capacity?

 

[annier]

In what capacity?

I would like to know what that means as well.
Hey vis, what do you mean?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

We are not allowed to debate variable observances of Torah - but that doesn't matter, in a sense, because real MJism is not about salvation by legalistic observance, it is about a willing obedience to G_d's word. For those times we un-wittingly fail in our obedience, as Torah tells us, there is now Yeshua's grace (though that doesn't cover wilful neglect in attempting to be obedient); prevenient grace, as offered by some, is an outmoded concept that has led the world to where it is today and the view that it doesn't really matter what we do, because 'we have a great get-out-of-jail card called 'grace'', from which was born the liberal wing of the Church, renowned as it is for its loose-leaf Bible view on key issues, and its anti-Paul and anti-Law theology.

Again real Messianic Judaism depends on who you talk to such as MJAA, UMJC or CTMOC.

One group may say it's belief in the One who Moses in the Law and the prophets did write. Which doesn't mean no Torah observance because as an example when I came to faith it didn't change my Torah observance from how I was raised Jewish.

And then you have another group that says it's a willful obedience to G-d's word which is Torah observance.

Two real perspectives.

What I'm giving is 2 perspectives and what you're doing is saying what real Messianic Judaism is. Which is wrong.

 

[visionary]

Again real Messianic Judaism depends on who you talk to such as MJAA, UMJC or CTMOC.

One group may say it's belief in the One who Moses in the Law and the prophets did write. Which doesn't mean no Torah observance because as an example when I came to faith it didn't change my Torah observance from how I was raised Jewish.

And then you have another group that says it's a willful obedience to G-d's word which is Torah observance.

Two real perspectives.

And it amazes me as to the disconnect people uncouple from Him and His Torah.

 

[annier]

Speaking simply from my experience and opinion...

1) Not at all. It's a different understanding of expectation and pursuance.
2) I haven't seen nor read anything that can be construed as such. However, admittedly, I'm skeptical of my sources before I vet them for any sort of personal validity.

Then an interesting discussion would remain (imo) of the distiction between Noachides. Christian/Messianic, vs non Christian/Messianic.

One distinction I can think of, is the next world, and the next life.

Some what common to both kinds.
Jews still have authority in Moses law, as in from them are the authorities which give the law it's force (law enforcement). Law with which is the kingdom of this world, this life.

But the Christian/Messianic does not look to solely Jews as agents of authority, in matters of the next life, and the next world. They are not the sole agents whereby they are the only authorities concerning the next world, next life nor law pertaining to it.

 

[visionary]

Question: Does Noahide Nations observe Jewish dietary laws? For example, do Noahides refrain from eating unclean animals? This is a clear prohibition in the Hebrew Scriptures (see. Leviticus 11:7). There are churches such as the Worldwide Church of God that observe this clear Scriptural prohibition, does Noahide Nations? Another Question I have is whether or not Noahide Nations encourages its members to eat milk and meat. This is a standard Jewish abstention; does Noahide Nations also abstain from eating milk and meat?

Answer: There are three mistakes in your question:

A commandment in the Hebrew Scriptures always applies universally.
The context of a verse is irrelevant to the meaning of the verse.
Christians understand the Hebrew Scriptures.


And this website goes on to explain... Noahide Nations - Do Noahides Eat Unclean Animals?

 

[visionary]

Their political element... The Noachide Laws: their meaning and logic

The 7 Noachide laws were given to mankind many years before the Jewish people received their commandments. These laws are universal, and are intended to allow all mankind to connect to their creator. They are as follows:

1.Do not eat a limb cut off a live animal
2.Do not curse God’s name
3.Do not worship idols
4.Do not commit adultery
5.Establish courts of law
6.Do not steal
7.Do not murder
At first glance, these seven laws appear very random, but I will attempt to clarify their logic based on the commentary of the Jewish Mystic, The Mahral of Prague (1520-1609); it is my hope that a clearer understanding of their structure will lead to more respect for these laws and more meaning in their observance.

If you want to continue to read... Noahide Nations - The Noahide Law: Their Meaning and Logic

 

[annier]

Question: Does Noahide Nations observe Jewish dietary laws? For example, do Noahides refrain from eating unclean animals? This is a clear prohibition in the Hebrew Scriptures (see. Leviticus 11:7). There are churches such as the Worldwide Church of God that observe this clear Scriptural prohibition, does Noahide Nations? Another Question I have is whether or not Noahide Nations encourages its members to eat milk and meat. This is a standard Jewish abstention; does Noahide Nations also abstain from eating milk and meat?

Answer: There are three mistakes in your question:

A commandment in the Hebrew Scriptures always applies universally.
The context of a verse is irrelevant to the meaning of the verse.
Christians understand the Hebrew Scriptures.


And this website goes on to explain... Noahide Nations - Do Noahides Eat Unclean Animals?

This needs it's own thread. And to be quite frank, I would be hesitiant to even discuss the issue any further without permission to do so. And I certainly would not engage the subject in depth without Jewish views of all kinds being freely expressed.
But could you please explain what you mean by political? You certainly are free to do that.

 

[visionary]

Back to the political motivation...

For the good of the society, courts or governments may place necessary legal limits on activities that G-d’s Torah leaves up to personal choice, as long as the restrictions are acceptable to the population in general. Then by the Noahide “Law of Courts,” citizens are required to observe the secular law, and the courts can apply any non-capital punishment that the public in general accepts, as long as it is not cruel and unusual. This is called “going beyond the letter” of the Torah Law. For example, a court system has the right to limit male citizens to only one legally contracted wife at a time (including both formally registered marriages and common-law marriages), if this is judged to be a benefit for the society. .....

Some Details and Related Principles
The ruling power must institute oversight over the courts to be sure that only proper and expert judges are appointed, and that the judges do not act corruptly or unrighteously. The ruling power also has the authority to institute a structure of “appeals” or “referral” courts.

Every individual must abide by a properly rendered legal decision he has received. It is forbidden for an individual to carry out judgments and punishments against others (vigilante justice). One must pursue a legal case within the legal system that has jurisdiction over the matter.

Standard types of evidence are admissible in Noahide courts.
Anyone who is known to transgress any of the 7 Noahide Commandments is not to be considered as a reliable witness in capital cases.
All judges must deliver righteous judgments, and opposing claimants must be treated equally in all ways.
Bribing a judge is forbidden, and judges may not take bribes.
In civil cases, one should seek arbitration, mediation or other means of finding an amicable settlement or compromise.
If the majority of the society is not G-d fearing and does not observe all of the Seven Noahide Commandments, a court may only use capital punishment as a decree of the government to protect the society from very dangerous criminals, such as murderers.

The Commandment to Establish Laws and Courts | AskNoah International for living the Noahide Code

If you have ever attended or been a part of Noahide, you will understand the focus of courts, law, and government that Noahide wants to influence and transform the current laws to abide by.

If you think this is isolated,,..
UN...UN Accepts 7 Noahide Laws Org - Chabad In Paradise
USA..Bill Text - 102nd Congress (1991-1992) - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

The Seven Laws of Noah were recognized by the United States Congress in the preamble to the 1991 bill that established Education Day in honor of the birthday of Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the leader of the Chabad movement:
Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our great Nation was founded; Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as the Seven Noahide Laws

 

[visionary]

Back to the political motivation...

For the good of the society, courts or governments may place necessary legal limits on activities that G-d’s Torah leaves up to personal choice, as long as the restrictions are acceptable to the population in general. Then by the Noahide “Law of Courts,” citizens are required to observe the secular law, and the courts can apply any non-capital punishment that the public in general accepts, as long as it is not cruel and unusual. This is called “going beyond the letter” of the Torah Law. For example, a court system has the right to limit male citizens to only one legally contracted wife at a time (including both formally registered marriages and common-law marriages), if this is judged to be a benefit for the society. .....

Some Details and Related Principles
The ruling power must institute oversight over the courts to be sure that only proper and expert judges are appointed, and that the judges do not act corruptly or unrighteously. The ruling power also has the authority to institute a structure of “appeals” or “referral” courts.

Every individual must abide by a properly rendered legal decision he has received. It is forbidden for an individual to carry out judgments and punishments against others (vigilante justice). One must pursue a legal case within the legal system that has jurisdiction over the matter.

Standard types of evidence are admissible in Noahide courts.
Anyone who is known to transgress any of the 7 Noahide Commandments is not to be considered as a reliable witness in capital cases.
All judges must deliver righteous judgments, and opposing claimants must be treated equally in all ways.
Bribing a judge is forbidden, and judges may not take bribes.
In civil cases, one should seek arbitration, mediation or other means of finding an amicable settlement or compromise.
If the majority of the society is not G-d fearing and does not observe all of the Seven Noahide Commandments, a court may only use capital punishment as a decree of the government to protect the society from very dangerous criminals, such as murderers.

The Commandment to Establish Laws and Courts | AskNoah International for living the Noahide Code

If you have ever attended or been a part of Noahide, you will understand the focus of courts, law, and government that Noahide wants to influence and transform the current laws to abide by.

If you think this is isolated,,..
UN...UN Accepts 7 Noahide Laws Org - Chabad In Paradise
USA..Bill Text - 102nd Congress (1991-1992) - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

The Seven Laws of Noah were recognized by the United States Congress in the preamble to the 1991 bill that established Education Day in honor of the birthday of Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the leader of the Chabad movement:
Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our great Nation was founded; Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as the Seven Noahide Laws

 

[Avodat]

Again real Messianic Judaism depends on who you talk to such as MJAA, UMJC or CTMOC.

One group may say it's belief in the One who Moses in the Law and the prophets did write. Which doesn't mean no Torah observance because as an example when I came to faith it didn't change my Torah observance from how I was raised Jewish.

And then you have another group that says it's a willful obedience to G-d's word which is Torah observance.

Two real perspectives.

What I'm giving is 2 perspectives and what you're doing is saying what real Messianic Judaism is. Which is wrong.

As valid as your view on here - whether or not you agree Most posters on here give rather selfish US views to these things - that view may be relevant in the US but the rest of the world begs to differ!

 

[muffler dragon]

Then an interesting discussion would remain (imo) of the distiction between Noachides. Christian/Messianic, vs non Christian/Messianic.

One distinction I can think of, is the next world, and the next life.

Some what common to both kinds.
Jews still have authority in Moses law, as in from them are the authorities which give the law it's force (law enforcement). Law with which is the kingdom of this world, this life.

But the Christian/Messianic does not look to solely Jews as agents of authority, in matters of the next life, and the next world. They are not the sole agents whereby they are the only authorities concerning the next world, next life nor law pertaining to it.

Please don't take my curt response as a reflection on your statement. I'm just clarifying where I'm at when I say that I haven't a concern nor thought in my mind with what may or may not happen after I die. At this point in time in my life, I simply could not care less. Que sera sera.