I have several questions about Fundamentalism.

[JacksBratt]

Jesus said that abusing someone with aggressive speech and taking their life were both murder, agreed. But there are different levels of murder. Jesus never said that aggressive speech and taking a life were to have the same punishment.

It matters not if you told a white lie or killed a man for taking your parking spot or bombed a kindergarten classroom.... in God's eyes all it takes is one sin and you are no longer innocent. It matters not if a cup has a chip out of the rim, a broken handle or is smashed, it is no longer a perfect cup.

Salvation is not about how many sins or how heinous they were. It's about the fact that we are guilty. We are blemished, we are flawed. The size or extent of the flaw matters not.

Praise God that all it takes it the admitting of this flaw and repenting from our ways, asking for Christs blood to cleanse us and we are made whole again. Yes we are sinners but we are covered by the blood of Jesus and He will pardon us at His fathers judgement.

Even after our day of salvation, our time of accepting Christ, no matter how hard we try, we will still sin. But, Christ is faithful and just to forgive us. If in the morning I pray and ask for forgiveness of the sins I have committed the days before, and I go to work and get stressed and go about my daily life in this world, and sin somehow. Then on my way home I have a hear attack and die... I am still covered by Christs blood. Those sins are covered by the blood of Christ too.

 

[sculleywr]

I guess you missed the part where I said that it is not a license to sin.

Also, do you know of anyone that could do such a thing? Come to Christ as a child and humbly admit guilt, repent and have a desire to live like Christ, then go kill hundreds of people? Impossible.

However, If someone was to start sinning and not regularly asking for forgiveness, they will not lose their salvation.

If you cannot leave salvation behind, if it is a once and done thing, then the sinner's prayer is essentially a purchasing of fire insurance. Sorry, but that's the reality of the OSAS doctrine.

 

[JacksBratt]

If you cannot leave salvation behind, if it is a once and done thing, then the sinner's prayer is essentially a purchasing of fire insurance. Sorry, but that's the reality of the OSAS doctrine.

I believe that it is impossible to have the attitude of the heart necessary for acceptance of salvation by conscious acceptance of your being a sinner deserving of eternal death, admittance of guilt, repentance of your sins, daily conscious desire to become more like Christ and then to follow a life of continual conscious opposite to that state of attitude of the heart.

Anyone who attempts to stick a foot in the door of heaven then carry on a sinful life..........didn't have salvation in the first place.

Sure we will backslide. I did. But I will have you know this, every day of my backsliding life..... I had a constant gnawing at my inner heart, that could not be ignored, telling me that what I was doing was wrong. What I was doing was against Christs will for me. Against the purpose of my new life of shining for His cause.....

If I had of died during that portion of time in my life.... are you saying Christ would have kicked me to the curb, left be to eternal death?

No, I was a child of God. I would have nothing left after the trial by fire, except my soul, nothing else.

It all depends on the reality of our conviction and dedication to God the day we submit to Him.

Some will have a pretty easy life after that. Some injuries, trials, losses, mental issues, relationship issues, problems of culture and geographical nature that try their faith and walk in Christ's will for them. Some will be strong, some will waver and some will fail...

Only God knows their hearts, our hearts, our trials, the depth of temptation, the depth of sorrow, the weakness of that particular soul.

The God I worship will not kick me to the curb and toss me aside due to a human weakness of the heart. I am His child.

You have a picture of a man and a child as your avatar. Ask yourself this... what possible action or event or decision could that child make or do in it's coming life that would make you disown them???? Nothing, right?

There is nothing my child could do that would make me disown them. They will always be my child. I will always love them. It may kill me, what they do and the roads they take, but they are mine and I would die in their place....

Well, that's what Christ did. He died in my place. When I take that gift... it's permanent. If I have the cognitive ability to recognize that gift and what it meant. Enough to get on bended knee and accept it....I am His, forever.

Just like that child is yours forever. No Matter What.

 

[sculleywr]

I believe that it is impossible to have the attitude of the heart necessary for acceptance of salvation by conscious acceptance of your being a sinner deserving of eternal death, admittance of guilt, repentance of your sins, daily conscious desire to become more like Christ and then to follow a life of continual conscious opposite to that state of attitude of the heart.

Anyone who attempts to stick a foot in the door of heaven then carry on a sinful life..........didn't have salvation in the first place.

Sure we will backslide. I did. But I will have you know this, every day of my backsliding life..... I had a constant gnawing at my inner heart, that could not be ignored, telling me that what I was doing was wrong. What I was doing was against Christs will for me. Against the purpose of my new life of shining for His cause.....

If I had of died during that portion of time in my life.... are you saying Christ would have kicked me to the curb, left be to eternal death?

No, I was a child of God. I would have nothing left after the trial by fire, except my soul, nothing else.

It all depends on the reality of our conviction and dedication to God the day we submit to Him.

Some will have a pretty easy life after that. Some injuries, trials, losses, mental issues, relationship issues, problems of culture and geographical nature that try their faith and walk in Christ's will for them. Some will be strong, some will waver and some will fail...

Only God knows their hearts, our hearts, our trials, the depth of temptation, the depth of sorrow, the weakness of that particular soul.

The God I worship will not kick me to the curb and toss me aside due to a human weakness of the heart. I am His child.

You have a picture of a man and a child as your avatar. Ask yourself this... what possible action or event or decision could that child make or do in it's coming life that would make you disown them???? Nothing, right?

There is nothing my child could do that would make me disown them. They will always be my child. I will always love them. It may kill me, what they do and the roads they take, but they are mine and I would die in their place....

Well, that's what Christ did. He died in my place. When I take that gift... it's permanent. If I have the cognitive ability to recognize that gift and what it meant. Enough to get on bended knee and accept it....I am His, forever.

Just like that child is yours forever. No Matter What.

So essentially, free will is checked at the door after a person makes a decision at 5 years old.

That's the problem with OSAS. It is a destruction of free will

 

[JacksBratt]

So essentially, free will is checked at the door after a person makes a decision at 5 years old.

That's the problem with OSAS. It is a destruction of free will

First of all, there is no "5 year old" set point. Some are wise enough and knowledgeable earlier than others. Some never attain the intelligence level or are knowledgeable enough, due to mental and other issues, to ever be held accountable for their decisions or actions. They cannot be held accountable.

As for free will. I still have free will. I have free will to act as I do. If I were to go and kill a guy, I would be punished by the justice system of my country. I would face my earthly due consequence.
When I was backsliding, I heard the nudging of the Holy Spirit and had free will to ignore them and do what I did. Thing is, when your not walking in the will of God you will be miserable.

God would also be displeased, but, like I said, would you disown your child if they killed a guy? Would you stop loving them? Would not your heart ache for their attitude and poor choice. Would you not agree that they would have to serve their punishment?

Now... If you had been wrongfully convicted of killing a man. You have served the punishment. You have payed a debt for something you didn't do. Now the court says that if your child accepts the free gift from you, you can pardon your child from the crime they committed as a direct result of the fact that you served the punishment for that crime but were innocent of it. However, your child has to accept it. You cannot impose this free pass on them if they are not willing to accept it.

Would you serve that sentence as a young man if you knew it would free your child later in your life???

I think you get the picture now. Christ loves you infinitely more than you can ever, in your earthly body and with your human mind, love your child.....

Again, I will reiterate, no person who truly accepted the salvation of Christ would go and do what Ted Bundy or Jeffery Dahmer did. Or any other such cognitive actions. However, Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dahmer could be given salvation if the had the change of heart, acceptance of their sin and repented and accepted Christs free gift of salation.

 

[sculleywr]

First of all, there is no "5 year old" set point. Some are wise enough and knowledgeable earlier than others. Some never attain the intelligence level or are knowledgeable enough, due to mental and other issues, to ever be held accountable for their decisions or actions. They cannot be held accountable.

As for free will. I still have free will. I have free will to act as I do. If I were to go and kill a guy, I would be punished by the justice system of my country. I would face my earthly due consequence.
When I was backsliding, I heard the nudging of the Holy Spirit and had free will to ignore them and do what I did. Thing is, when your not walking in the will of God you will be miserable.

God would also be displeased, but, like I said, would you disown your child if they killed a guy? Would you stop loving them? Would not your heart ache for their attitude and poor choice. Would you not agree that they would have to serve their punishment?

Now... If you had been wrongfully convicted of killing a man. You have served the punishment. You have payed a debt for something you didn't do. Now the court says that if your child accepts the free gift from you, you can pardon your child from the crime they committed as a direct result of the fact that you served the punishment for that crime but were innocent of it. However, your child has to accept it. You cannot impose this free pass on them if they are not willing to accept it.

Would you serve that sentence as a young man if you knew it would free your child later in your life???

I think you get the picture now. Christ loves you infinitely more than you can ever, in your earthly body and with your human mind, love your child.....

Again, I will reiterate, no person who truly accepted the salvation of Christ would go and do what Ted Bundy or Jeffery Dahmer did. Or any other such cognitive actions. However, Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dahmer could be given salvation if the had the change of heart, acceptance of their sin and repented and accepted Christs free gift of salation.

If you do not have free will to reject God, then you do not have free will. Free will means that you can choose to enact one's own desire.

So no, you don't believe in free will.

We know that people have left Christ for heresy. Nicholas, one of the seven Deacons who the Scripture said was "full of the Spirit and wisdom", went off and preached a heresy so bad that in Revelations he is described as hated by God.

Free will means the ability to choose to leave God.

And even Christ describes that many who were truly attached to the vine will be taken off of the vine and thrown into the fire.

 

[nChrist]

So essentially, free will is checked at the door after a person makes a decision at 5 years old.

That's the problem with OSAS. It is a destruction of free will

God promises eternal life to a truly saved person, and the Holy Spirit of God seals his or her heart as a purchased possession of Jesus Christ. Are you hinting that God doesn't keep His promises?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

If you believe in the Holy Spirit then you will see that the issue isn't the lack of the freedom to sin but being repentant for being a sinner. You are like a reformed convict, does the placement of law mean you can't do whatever you want? No. But if you did what you wanted (as a sinner), imprisoned and later released/freed (by believing in Jesus). Does it mean, you still can't do what you want? No, You still can. However, you will not be as careless as you used to be before or if a Jane Doe was on a death penalty then received a presidential pardon a few seconds to her execution. What life do you think she would live?

So, We are saying, a Christian should be more fearful of sin after the receiving of the Holy Spirit not that a Christian cannot sin because of He Has his Holy Spirit? Man is weird.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you."

Being a Christian isn't the ticket to Entering the Lord's throne but hearkening to His Voice

 

[sculleywr]

God promises eternal life to a truly saved person, and the Holy Spirit of God seals his or her heart as a purchased possession of Jesus Christ. Are you hinting that God doesn't keep His promises?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

No. But the problem is that the tense of the "believe" in those passages is not a single event, but a continuous verb. One cannot just believe at one point and stop believing and expect to still be saved.

The fact is that salvation is not just forgiveness. Eternal life is intimate knowledge of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as stated in the High Priestly Prayer of Christ in the Garden.

 

[nChrist]

No. But the problem is that the tense of the "believe" in those passages is not a single event, but a continuous verb. One cannot just believe at one point and stop believing and expect to still be saved.

The fact is that salvation is not just forgiveness. Eternal life is intimate knowledge of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as stated in the High Priestly Prayer of Christ in the Garden.

Negative - Salvation is not on the installment payment plan. You can only be Saved once and it's forever according to God's Promises of eternal life.

 

[sculleywr]

Negative - Salvation is not on the installment payment plan. You can only be Saved once and it's forever according to God's Promises of eternal life.

So the moment you say the magic words, a magic spell happens.

Sorry, but I'll stick with the original language's intent. Nobody it was written to thought of eternal security. ES is only, at most, a two century old doctrine. The reason it wasn't preached prior to that is because it wasn't the message of the Apostles.

Because you cannot have eternal life by way of a magic spell. It takes time to get to know God in the way that eternal life entails.

And this is life eternal, to know the Father...

 

[Open Heart]

It matters not if you told a white lie or killed a man for taking your parking spot or bombed a kindergarten classroom.... in God's eyes all it takes is one sin and you are no longer innocent. It matters not if a cup has a chip out of the rim, a broken handle or is smashed, it is no longer a perfect cup.

In terms of being a lawbreaker, in terms of needing a Savior, you are absolutely correct.

But in terms of what worldly punishment God thinks you deserve, they are not equal -- God discriminates. And in terms of how they effect the salvation you have once you have it, God also discriminates. There are sins unto death and sins not unto death. You DO accept this scripture from 1 John 5:16 giving these two categories, don't you? Don't you?

 

[nChrist]

So the moment you say the magic words, a magic spell happens.

Sorry, but I'll stick with the original language's intent. Nobody it was written to thought of eternal security. ES is only, at most, a two century old doctrine. The reason it wasn't preached prior to that is because it wasn't the message of the Apostles.

Because you cannot have eternal life by way of a magic spell. It takes time to get to know God in the way that eternal life entails.

And this is life eternal, to know the Father...

You're EO, so I expect you to ignore many crystal clear portions of Scripture. You put your man-fabricated doctrines above God's Word, and that's just one of the reasons why the EO is off-topic for this thread. I repeat that the EO is not Fundamentalist. I, for one, am sick of you promoting the EO. I don't view the EO as an authority on anything. I couldn't care less about the false teachings and false doctrines of the EO, but I do feel sorry for the people who attend the EO. You don't have a clue about the most basic Bible FACTS because you've been brainwashed by the EO. I'll take God's Word - PERIOD. You don't even know if you're Saved or not. I give thanks that I don't have that problem.

 

[JacksBratt]

If you do not have free will to reject God, then you do not have free will. Free will means that you can choose to enact one's own desire.

So no, you don't believe in free will.

We know that people have left Christ for heresy. Nicholas, one of the seven Deacons who the Scripture said was "full of the Spirit and wisdom", went off and preached a heresy so bad that in Revelations he is described as hated by God.

Free will means the ability to choose to leave God.

And even Christ describes that many who were truly attached to the vine will be taken off of the vine and thrown into the fire.

Of course, there is the one unforgivable sin...

Mark 3:29King James Version (KJV)

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

But this would be a conscious turning away. This is not a person who has a desire to spend eternity with their creator.

I am referring to those who want salvation but are weak and continue to sin. Not someone who once had a heart for Christ and are now consciously turning away.....We need to be on the same page. This is not a person who desires an eternal life but sins. This is a person who prays the sinners prayer but then turns the other direction and rejects Christ and speaks against Him.

 

[JacksBratt]

No. But the problem is that the tense of the "believe" in those passages is not a single event, but a continuous verb. One cannot just believe at one point and stop believing and expect to still be saved.

The fact is that salvation is not just forgiveness. Eternal life is intimate knowledge of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as stated in the High Priestly Prayer of Christ in the Garden.

Born once, die twice. Born twice, die once.

 

[sculleywr]

You're EO, so I expect you to ignore many crystal clear portions of Scripture. You put your man-fabricated doctrines above God's Word, and that's just one of the reasons why the EO is off-topic for this thread. I repeat that the EO is not Fundamentalist. I, for one, am sick of you promoting the EO. I don't view the EO as an authority on anything. I couldn't care less about the false teachings and false doctrines of the EO, but I do feel sorry for the people who attend the EO. You don't have a clue about the most basic Bible FACTS because you've been brainwashed by the EO. I'll take God's Word - PERIOD. You don't even know if you're Saved or not. I give thanks that I don't have that problem.

I will be quite frank with you, because you have gone past the line of polite discussion and gone directly into the realm of senseless and baseless accusation. I grew up in a Fundamentalist church. I nearly left Christ altogether because of their hatred.

I follow the Orthodox Church because they do not lie to themselves about using traditions. You use traditions, everyone uses traditions. You can either be honest about it, or dishonest. Sola Scriptura is a tradition. The other four solas are traditions. The canon is tradition. Your interpretations of Scripture are tradition.

Do not lie to me about whether or not you use Scripture alone, because that's completely and utterly impossible.

 

[sculleywr]

Born once, die twice. Born twice, die once.

Nice truism. Got anything to back up your denial of the parable of the vineyard caretaker?

 

[sculleywr]

Of course, there is the one unforgivable sin...

Mark 3:29King James Version (KJV)

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

But this would be a conscious turning away. This is not a person who has a desire to spend eternity with their creator.

I am referring to those who want salvation but are weak and continue to sin. Not someone who once had a heart for Christ and are now consciously turning away.....We need to be on the same page. This is not a person who desires an eternal life but sins. This is a person who prays the sinners prayer but then turns the other direction and rejects Christ and speaks against Him.

And here is where you basically say the same as Orthodox people. A person can choose to follow Christ and then choose to leave Him.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Born once, die twice. Born twice, die once.

No matter how much you debate here, there's only one thing will come out (you rebelled and you are not of the FLOCK). Truth is relative and if a Christian can't bear the cross why not walk out. There's also another thing, the Bible will soon be a weak point of reference in defending an individual's faith, it'll come off as a complete hogwash if not straight-up dumb. So my friend to spare you the agony for doing your CALL, wash your hands, and let your LORD JUDGE this thing we see here. Blessings are yours for keeping! SHALOM!