"I have a baptism to undergo" - Jesus

[Jig]

Is "water and Spirit" in John 3:5 refering to water baptism?

Lets see:

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Here we see Jesus telling Nicodemus the process to become "born again" (which clearly implies another birth other than your orginal physical birth, hence, 'again'). One must be born of water and Spirit. Lets read on to see the greater context.

v.6
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Here we see Jesus clearify the dichotomy of the two births that apply to being "born again" (v.7). The birth of the flesh and the birth of the spirit. This seems to parallel and extend on the statement Jesus made prior: born of water and the Spirit.

Verse 8, makes clear that being born of the Spirit is individually seperate than that of water. "so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" Which implies the "water and the spirit" in v.5 is not to be understood as a combined birth, but as a dichotomy of two births, since it is left out here.

Water baptism is not mentioned once in this whole passage, only the word "water" which is clearly physical birth, which Jesus clearified in v.6 following v.5.

"Water" here is a bodily liquid that repersented fleshly birth, the water-like amniotic fluid. John uses the same Greek word to repersent bodily fluid again in John 19:34.

John 19:34
But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

"Water" here means - paricardial sac fluid. It was quite common for people to use the word 'water' to symbolize clear liquids of any kind.

Is there Scriptural evidence that supports this clear contextual understanding of John 3:5? (Since the question will arise regardless of clearity.) Sure!

The indwelling/pouring out/baptism of the Holy Spirit can not be through baptism of water. (The two can not be same)

Mark 1:8
"I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."


The baptism of the Holy Spirit is clearly not with water. (Matt. 3:11, Luke 3:16)

Acts 1:5
for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.

So what is this baptism that saves?? (1 Peter 3:21)

Jesus said Himself:

Luke 12:50
"But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!

What was this baptism? The work on the cross (His death), His burial (submersion into the earth [Eph. 4:9]), and His ressurection from that death and burial. (This is the antitype that now saves. 1 Peter 3:20-21. Christ is the ark that is baptized, we are the ones in the ark.)

This fits what water baptism represents perfectly. (Romans 6:4) Christ's baptism saves, water baptism is the symbol of that true baptism which believers partake in to proclaim their faith in it. The rest of John 3 talks about belief in Christ and what he did and how that faith grants grace which saves. John 3:16! Water is not mentioned again.

 

[icxn]

If the water refers to physical birth why did St. Philip baptize the Eunuch with water (Acts 8)?

 

[prodromos]

"Water" here is a bodily liquid that repersented fleshly birth, the water-like amniotic fluid.

Can you provide any examples in Hebrew, Greek or any culture for that matter where physical birth is referred to as being "of water"?

 

[Markea]

I agree that it is Christ's baptism upon Calvary which saves us, and not our own baptism in water.. although my thoughts concerning John 3 vary slightly from those which perceive the water to be part our own water... ie, from birth..

John records the LORD telling His disciples that they are CLEAN because of the WORD which was spoken to them.. and He then shows them a vital spiritual truth with the washing of their feet.. and it's very important to note that the LORD says that they would have no part in Him if this wasn't done.. although it wasn't the physical washing of their feet which was important.. it was the spiritual truth which it exemplified.

ALSO.. the primary thrust which opens John's gospel is the WORD made flesh..

Paul writes that we are WASHED by the WATER of the WORD.. and that His word is truth.. we're transformed by its power as it is effectual in bringing us into the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

It's the gospel of God concerning His Son, which is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes it..

so, in my estimation.. it's not our water.. it's the precious water of the word of God.. and when it's received.. it's that well of water within the person which springs up in them unto eternal life..

 

[bennyk]

Well the phrase "blood is thicker than water" is actually a Biblical (covenant-related) phrase I think. In that phrase, water is referring to physical birth so maybe that helps in some way.

For more details see this link: http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/19/messages/141.html

Thanks and God bless,
--Benjamin

 

[ScottBot]

I find it interesting that if you put this passage in John into context, immediately after having this conversation with Nicodemus, Jesus goes to the Jordan with the Apostles and baptises people. Go figure. Unless that means that Jesus was acting as a 1st century OB/GYN and giving birth to babies (with the ridiculous water=amniotic fluid arguement)?

 

[Uphill Battle]

I find it interesting that if you put this passage in John into context, immediately after having this conversation with Nicodemus, Jesus goes to the Jordan with the Apostles and baptises people. Go figure. Unless that means that Jesus was acting as a 1st century OB/GYN and giving birth to babies (with the ridiculous water=amniotic fluid arguement)?

thats actually a good point.

 

[SonOfJohn]

I think that the water is representing a baptism and the Spirit is representing another. We must first go through a baptism by water where we accept Jesus. He did for propriety and all Christians do as well. But He himself went through quite a spiritual clensing after that water baptism. I believe that is the baptism by Spirit we must go through to get to Jesus. If he does not enter your heart and he does not guide you and your choices, if you are not baptised in water and in spirit by Christ then you did not see him and he does not know you.

 

[Jig]

I find it interesting that if you put this passage in John into context, immediately after having this conversation with Nicodemus, Jesus goes to the Jordan with the Apostles and baptises people. Go figure. Unless that means that Jesus was acting as a 1st century OB/GYN and giving birth to babies (with the ridiculous water=amniotic fluid arguement)?

It is not ridiculous, v.6 clearifies the dichotomy of water and spirit in v.5. Jesus clearly states two kinds of birth. The ONLY two kinds of birth. You can't be born of the Spirit twice and you can't be born of the flesh twice. Being "born again" means having both. Then v.8 leaves water out and only says born of the Spirit. Also, water is used for other bodily fluids in the same Gospel.

If Jesus meant baptism, He would have said "baptism" not water. Where else does Jesus use just the word "water" to represent baptism?

 

[LogosPryme]

One scripture that helps me to understand these passages is:

One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
(Eph 4:5)

If this is literal, then there can only truly be one baptism (immersion) that we as CHRISTians spiritually partake of.

Hope this helps. Be Blessed!

 

[prodromos]

Well the phrase "blood is thicker than water" is actually a Biblical (covenant-related) phrase I think. In that phrase, water is referring to physical birth so maybe that helps in some way.

For more details see this link: http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/19/messages/141.html

It is plausible, but it still isn't actual examples of water being used to describe physical birth. In the English language we refer to the "waters breaking" as the beginning of the birth process, but we never refer to the birth as being "of water". Does anyone have concrete examples of birth being described as "of water" in any language, but particularly in Hebrew or Greek?

John

 

[bennyk]

Yeah, good point. I wasn't for sure on anything, I was just mentioning that one phrase, because I had heard it before. I am actually unsure on the issue, I was mentioning that in case it helped someone.

Thanks and God bless,
--Benjamin

 

[Jig]

One scripture that helps me to understand these passages is:

One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
(Eph 4:5)

If this is literal, then there can only truly be one baptism (immersion) that we as CHRISTians spiritually partake of.

Hope this helps. Be Blessed!

Eph 4 is an awesome example of my OP vaildity. If there is only "one baptism" which one is it?

The one Christ performed (Luke 12:50) or the one believers perform in water? Which one here is the symbolic representation of the other? Which one here is the one that saves?

If you read on in Eph just a couple verese down from v.5, we read v.9-10 which is explaining Christs baptism of Him immersed by death into the earth and rising out. Paul here gives a prime example that the baptism he speaks of is that of what Jesus underwent through His death and resurrection, not that which believers do to proclaim and mimic this truth.

 

[Jig]

Months have passed with no reply.....

 

[IamRedeemed]

Amen.

I believe the water is as in baptism by water and the Spirit as in being born again by belief in Christ and the Holy Spirit quickening our spirits making them alive to the things of God aka being born again.

The Baptism of the Holy Ghost however, is a baptism of Fire.
Which is not the same as above, but a separate event usually.

I find it interesting that if you put this passage in John into context, immediately after having this conversation with Nicodemus, Jesus goes to the Jordan with the Apostles and baptises people. Go figure. Unless that means that Jesus was acting as a 1st century OB/GYN and giving birth to babies (with the ridiculous water=amniotic fluid arguement)?