I disagree with a lot of stuff in the Westminster Confessional.

[reformedfan]

Had Einstein been Christian, he would have been Calvinist.

One of his famous quotes is: "God does not play dice."

Meaning, nothing is left to chance, but is purposefully planned.

*this has nothing to do with the op*

what's weird is that Jews for Jesus & groups like that are Arminian, isn't that bizarre?? You'd think they of all people would KNOW & believe in predestination.

*back to regularly scheduled program*

 

[Jon_]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Cajun Huguenot again.

I can't tell you how frequently I get this message.

Very well put, Kenith—gentle but firm.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[4jacks]

If you are not a Calvinist, then you are an Arminian.

Thanks Ken, you're post have been the most helpful...


I'm not an Arminian though, I've read a little on the teachings of Jacobus Arminius, and I find way more flaws in that then I do in Calvins.

Especially the teaching that you can lose your salvation, or "shipwreck" your salvation.

to me that is a much bigger issue. I actually find Predestination to be a minor issue, but I agree the PCA would disagree.

It really stinks becuase in my current situation I really feel stuck at this church.

 

[4jacks]

*this has nothing to do with the op*

what's weird is that Jews for Jesus & groups like that are Arminian, isn't that bizarre?? You'd think they of all people would KNOW & believe in predestination.

*back to regularly scheduled program*

You know the Einstein comment made the LEAST sense to my thread.

Einstein was brilliant. Have you studied the theory of Relativity? I'm not going to get all arrogant and pretend to know a lick next to Einstein, but I'm an engineer and have been through Physics III and up to Calculus III, and I can completely relate to einsteins statement of God does not role dice.

The more I learn about mathamatics and physics, the easier it is to see the existence of God, and more so the complete genius. Everything in this universe is so intricatly designed, there is no such thing as random, everything has been design.

To go completely off track.... A physist who further compounded on einstiens knowledge put out a theory that any body of mass traveling below the speed of light could not be accelorated to the speed of light and furthermore that any body of mass traveling Above the speed of light could not slow down To the speed of light.

What this means is that in reality there are two realms of matter in existence all around us, one below the speed of light and one above. Very mathematically proven. I coulda swore it was a therom and not a theory, but I recently read an internet article that a lab recently accelorated a particle beyond the speed of light, which I haven't looked into to confirm, but that would really rewrite a lot of text books, and a lot of Einsteins work would have to be re-examined.


You'll have to forgive the typo's and mispelled words, It's late, And Word is freezing on me, so I can't get the spell check working. Unfortunetly English was not my cup of tea.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Hey 4Jacks,

Predestination is NOT the Gospel, but I believe it is important. I think some Calvinists can get hung up on it and forget that there is a GREAT deal more in the Bible than this issue. We must always seek a balanced understanding of the whole council of God. Predestination is only one small (but important) part of the Scriptures.

I will pray that the Lord will give you direction about what to do.

If I can help you, please let me know.

I wish you well.

Dominus vobiscum,
Kenith

Thanks Ken, you're post have been the most helpful...


I'm not an Arminian though, I've read a little on the teachings of Jacobus Arminius, and I find way more flaws in that then I do in Calvins.

Especially the teaching that you can lose your salvation, or "shipwreck" your salvation.

to me that is a much bigger issue. I actually find Predestination to be a minor issue, but I agree the PCA would disagree.

It really stinks becuase in my current situation I really feel stuck at this church.

 

[Proeliator]

It really stinks becuase in my current situation I really feel stuck at this church.

What I dont understand here is mostly the fact that, you know the WMC is what doctrine is based from, disagree with much of it, and still WANT to stay at this Church. From anything I have been able to glean in my short time on this forum and other theological discussions, doctrine is the 1st ingredient needed for you to find a church. If there is any way you can feel stuck, then you most assuredly need to go somewhere else. Would you stay in a friendship because you feel stuck, or because you care? Stuck is not beyond your control' as a matter of fact, IMHO, it makes the matter fully your responsability to rectify.

 

[4jacks]

What I dont understand here is mostly the fact that, you know the WMC is what doctrine is based from, disagree with much of it, and still WANT to stay at this Church. From anything I have been able to glean in my short time on this forum and other theological discussions, doctrine is the 1st ingredient needed for you to find a church.

Sorry about the delayed response.

I disagree about doctrine being the 1st ingredient. I believe worship and fellowship that brings glory to god should be the 1st ingredient or prerequisite. After that Biblical Teaching should be should. By biblical teaching I mean the sermons that you hear every week and the doctrine that a church might claim but never really preach on much.

A moderate example would be that the WMC states that some infants who die go to hell, and some go to heaven, at God's choosing. Once again without debating anything, but merely stating an example. But In all my years at the PCA church, no one has ever preached that.

If there is any way you can feel stuck, then you most assuredly need to go somewhere else.

By "Stuck" I meant that I most assuredly can not see any other options as far as church goes. Maybe you misunderstood the word, I dunno.

Would you stay in a friendship because you feel stuck, or because you care? Stuck is not beyond your control' as a matter of fact, IMHO, it makes the matter fully your responsability to rectify.

Actually I think just by definition the word stuck implies that it is beyond my control. I think you are assuming that I just don't want to look for a new church. Since we're on analogies. By Stuck I mean like how you get Stuck in Traffic, with cars all around you and no where to go. I think you are invisioning me just parking my car in the middle of the highway and refusing to go anywhere.

I probably won't get away with that, w/o elaborating. So Here we go. Starting at the church in 94'... when I got married in 01' we bought a house that is 40 minutes away. Also at the same time, my church ordained a new pastor. We figured it was a great time to look for a new church and try to get more involved.

We spent two years, going to every single church within 30 minutes of our house. And there is really not one church that met the qualifications I previously listed. But we did get a bunch of really funny stories. Anyway we Gave up looking for a new church and just started driving 40 minutes to our old church.

So by "STUCK" I mean there is not a better church within 40 minutes of our house. We do live a bit in the boon docks thought. We would like to move closer to civiliazation within a couple years, and That would open up more options.

 

[edie19]

I can't tell you how frequently I get this message.

Very well put, Kenith—gentle but firm.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

I get it a lot too, so I want to say publicly:

Kenneth and Augustine - you guys rock!

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

*this has nothing to do with the op*

what's weird is that Jews for Jesus & groups like that are Arminian, isn't that bizarre?? You'd think they of all people would KNOW & believe in predestination.

*back to regularly scheduled program*

Sure the Einstein quote did. Einstein was a believer in Predestination.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

You know the Einstein comment made the LEAST sense to my thread.

Sure it did. The point of the Einstein quote is that Einstein was aware that God did not leave anything to chance and employed His own purposes in everything, ie-Predestination(determinism).

 

[4jacks]

Sure it did. The point of the Einstein quote is that Einstein was aware that God did not leave anything to chance and employed His own purposes in everything, ie-Predestination(determinism).

You are completely missing Einstein's message in that statement. Einstein was talking about the actual Physics of the World and not Theology.

I guess it might be something that you really have to study Einstein's material to truly appreciate. (Once again, I just skimmed the surface and am not by any means claiming to understand his material)

But I think you are doing Einstein a Huge injustice by stating that his statement was about some silly Theological Issue such as this.

 

[akolouthein]

just wanted to comment that I'm sorry you feel like a lot of what the PCA teaches has been hidden from you. This is what I found out the very first day of attending a PCA church from a welcome package: Taken from a pamphlet entitled "The Presbyterian Church in America is"

"... our form of doctrine is also scriptural. As "Presbyterian" refers to our form of government so "Reformed" denotes our doctrinal beliefs. We stand in the ancient heritage of true-to-the-Bible theology. We earnestly strive to follow Christ and His Apostles. We believe that the purest expressions of scriptural doctrine are found in the Calvinistic creeds particularly the Westminster Confession of Faith with the Larger and Shorter Catechisms.

This means that we believe in the Trinity. There is one God who exists eternally in three Persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one God, the same in substance, equal in power and glory.

We believe that the Bible is the written Word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error in the original manuscripts. The Bible is our infallibleness and divine authority in all matters of faith and life.

We believe that all men are sinners and are totally unable to save themselves or even to cooperate with God in efforts to earn their salvation.

We believe that salvation is by God's action alone, who sovereignly chooses out of the fallen race of mankind those whom He will save. God alone saves the people whom He draws to Jesus by His Holy Spirit. He convinces them of their sin and enlightens them so that they repent of their sins and trust in Jesus Christ as He is offered in the Gospel. Because God alone knows who are His, we call on people everywhere to repent and to trust in Jesus Christ.

We believe that Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, who became man and lived and died and rose again to atone for the sins of those who trust Him alone for their salvation. Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man.

We believe that God's Holy Spirit gives Christians the daily strength and wisdom they need to walk according to His will and to grow in holiness.

We believe that Jesus Christ shall return personally, visibly, and bodily to judge all mankind and to receive His people unto Himself."

I'm moving away from the Lutheran church because I believe in the 5 points of Calvinism. If you do not believe in predestination maybe you should try the LCMS or if you are more liberal the ELCA.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I'm moving away from the Lutheran church because I believe in the 5 points of Calvinism. If you do not believe in predestination maybe you should try the LCMS or if you are more liberal the ELCA.

I attended a LCMS church for a while. I loved the liturgy and the people, but I differed wityh them on predestination and on how Christ is present in the Lord's Supper.

If all LCMS are like the one I attended, I highly recommend them to all non-Calvinists and even to Reformed Christians who live in areas where there are no Reformed churches near by.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[akolouthein]

I attended a LCMS church for a while. I loved the liturgy and the people, but I differed wityh them on predestination and on how Christ is present in the Lord's Supper.

If all LCMS are like the one I attended, I highly recommend them to all non-Calvinists and even to Reformed Christians who live in areas where there are no Reformed churches near by.

In Christ,
Kenith

Oh yes if there wasn't a nice conservative PCA church near my home I would have checked out the LCMS as well.

 

[JM]

It was my study of the WCF that helped me to make up my mind about entering the confessional Reformed church.

 

[Gabriel]

What exactly are the Doctrines of Grace, Can I obtain a copy of them? Or are you just reffering to abstract thoughts and Ideas?




Nah you've been very helpful.


Although if there are any PCA Elders or Pastors out there, I'm still looking for the answer to the Question of whether or not I will be flat out rejected, or if it will be on a case by case base.

I am a Ruling Elder in the PCA. I can tell you that we will accept minor exceptions to the Confession. Your exceptions, however, are not minor. They are fundamental in understanding the sovereignty of God. Predestination is not an idea or a belief. It is Scripture. Once you understand it better, it will be plain to you throughout the Bible. It's not Paul's doctrine as some would like to claim, it's God's.

It is a sad thing that you have gone to a PCA church for so long and were never taught such a basic and biblical concept. I would suggest that you speak with an Elder or two and express your concerns. Ask questions and become more educated on the matter.

Tony Evans, huh? I'll admit, I like his preaching on topical matters such as family and daily living. His doctrine is not in line with scripture regarding election, though.

I could explain election from a biblical POV, but it sounds like that's not really what you're looking for. I don't mean to be harsh, but I kind of get the feeling that your mind is made up and you have no desire to learn or understand anything different. My perception is that you seek an office that you cannot honor or uphold. You may be doing this for selfish reasons such as a need for power or honor, but I assure you, there is no greater honor than serving Our Father in whatever role he has foreordained for you.

 

[Cullen1552]

I listen to a lot of Tony Evans and have really been influenced by his teachings alot. I really love his way of preaching on a topic.
/QUOTE]

I share you love for our brother Tony's teaching but I hate to tell you this but I have heard him teach on Romans 9 and he too teaches double predestination.

Cullen

 

[4jacks]

I could explain election from a biblical POV, but it sounds like that's not really what you're looking for. I don't mean to be harsh, but I kind of get the feeling that your mind is made up and you have no desire to learn or understand anything different. My perception is that you seek an office that you cannot honor or uphold. You may be doing this for selfish reasons such as a need for power or honor, but I assure you, there is no greater honor than serving Our Father in whatever role he has foreordained for you.

Thanks, You're right I don't wanna debate it on the internet. I don't seek an office that I cannot honor, if I can't honor the office, I'ma gonna switch churches so I can hence this thread.

I share you love for our brother Tony's teaching but I hate to tell you this but I have heard him teach on Romans 9 and he too teaches double predestination.
Cullen

What exactly is double predestination?

I can't say I have all his series or that I've heard them all, but I've heard a good number of them. I've also contacted and spoke to Dr. Marvin Hawkins, who is a great minisiter underneath Dr. Evans, and his view was that predestination is wrong.

 

[Proeliator]

Maybe Im just confused, but arent the Westminster and the 1689 London Baptist like *THE* Reformed Confessions? Can you really be Reformed without believeing and following one of them?

 

[ClementofRome]

If I am not mistaken, Tony Evans is a Dallas Theological Seminary grad and that would make him a 4-pointer for sure and possibly a 5-pointer!