I can’t support the Ukrainian Government any longer, even though Putin was wrong to invade

[chevyontheriver]

No, I would be grieved...but willing. Nuclear deterrence is only effective if the enemy is convinced you are willing to push the button. God willing, it would never come to that.

I'm not feeling very safe around that kind of thinking. I grew up learning how to duck and cover. It was madness then and mass murder is still madness.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

I'm not feeling very safe around that kind of thinking. I grew up learning how to duck and cover. It was madness then and mass murder is still madness.

But they made it so fun. And after you survived under your desk, then what? Finish the math lesson? Recess? Go home and have a discussion around the dinner table about surviving in a post apocalyptic world?

 

[chevyontheriver]

So you best peace idea is for the attacked to immediately surrender?

It depends. If you are going to go down in annihilation then surrender is the just thing to do. If you can resist the invasion successfully then resistance is the just thing to do. Then there is the vast middle ground.

I see people beating the war drums quite loudly now. They are even willing to have a nuclear war. But have they even bothered to think about just war theory? Do they even know about just war theory? We should not be rushing into a war without some hard thinking about what is just. Putin is unjust in invading Ukraine. But that fact does not make it just for us to enter into that war. As can happen, no side can be justified in a war and the only just solution is to just stop. But somebody needs a cool head for that. We have lots of warmongering. We have lots of dithering too. I'm not seeing many who want to actually make peace. Only those who say they want peace by killing Putin, even to the point of launching nukes.

 

[cow451]

He has negotiated in good faith before, so its not like that has never happened. And if Ukraine sued for peace and a negotiated surrender, it is extremely unlikely that Russia would refuse. And if the promise were sanctions being lifted under peace, and being slapped back on if he reinvaded, that should be enough.

Russia isn’t going to surrender.

 

[cow451]

So you best peace idea is for the attacked to immediately surrender?

Invaders always treat their conquered people with compassion and grace.

 

[cow451]

The only tactical response for Christians, as shown by our Christ Jesus, is to lay down arms and both pray and work for peace.
Obviously, the stakes are much higher for active combatant, and those assailed by enemy forces. My sympathies and prayers are with you. I cannot know the choices you must make. I pray the love and grace of Christ for you.
However, global armchair quarterbacks can easily stop advocating for a war that they have no real stake in. Most plainly, if you are not part of this, do not give easy answers, particularly any that advocate violence.

The Ukrainian people are willing to fight the evil one. If they weren’t, we would not be having this discussion.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

We should say enough is enough right now and apply maximum political pressure on Zelenskyy to sue for peace, and maximum pressure on Putin to grant Ukraine reasonable concessions, such as a 100 mile demilitarized zone on both sides of the border except Kiev, Crimea and the regions bordering Crimea, and continued sovereignity, and also a restoration of the economic and trading relationship that existed with Russia before 2014, while allowing Ukraine to also retain an equal trading relationship with Europe, and Donetsk and Luhansk recognized as sovereign states, and also a normalization of relations with Transnistria. And action on both sides to immediately arrest and prosecute the Chechen Islamist forces recruited by Russia and the Neo-Nazi Azov Batallion recruited by Ukraine, because having been militarized, both groups threaten the security of both countries and it was grossly responsible to the point of idiocy for either government to use them.

In fact, I think that summarizes my view of Putin and Zelenskyy. They are evil, but they are also reckless to the point of stupidity. Both of them manifest “Dark Triad” personality traits like Narcissism, Psychopathy and Machiavellianism. In Putin’s case, the Narcissism would be in his ridiculous shirtless PR photos, and in Zelenskyy, in the bizarre TV show he made where he plays the president of a corrupt regime trying to combat corruption.

Please forgive me, but could you please explain what makes Zelensky "evil"?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

I'm not feeling very safe around that kind of thinking. I grew up learning how to duck and cover. It was madness then and mass murder is still madness.

Your feelings of safety does not always accurately reflect your actual safety. Sheep may feel safer if the wolf is disguised as a sheep. Sheep may feel unsafe around a sheepdog because the dog looks intimidating. Peace through strength only works if we are willing to use that strength in pursuit of peace. Ironically, that requires a willingness to go to war.

 

[o_mlly]

Perhaps the reason Russia finally decided to abandon the Afghanistan invasion was the outrage of Russian mothers and fathers who lost or were about to lose more of their sons.

Putin is Russia's problem. The solution must also be Russian. Tyrannicide is a moral option.

 

[Nithavela]

I'm not feeling very safe around that kind of thinking. I grew up learning how to duck and cover. It was madness then and mass murder is still madness.

Feelings of safety are only an illusion.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Feelings of safety are only an illusion.

Unfortunately, without nuclear deterrence, the alternative to a global Mexican standoff with Russia is WWII-level conventional warfare where hundreds of thousands of lives are lost. Either situation is horrific, but one is definitely preferable than the other.

 

[Halbhh]

He referenced Pearl Harbor and WWII, in which the US was the victim of a sneak attack by an Axis Power and had war declared on it by Mussolini and Aldolf Hitler, whose atrocities exceed anything that has happened thus far in Ukraine, and we need to pray it never reaches that point.

I agree: pray that this war doesn't go on for 4 years, where atrocities would gradually add up/accumulate to such a level, which takes years of time to get to the level it took Germany many years to do.

Though, I think it will turn out that Ukraine is able to defeat Russia inside it's own territory.

Russia will be able to level cities, kill civilians, as they are now doing.
But that's not winning. That's losing.

In addition though to Russia losing morally, as they already have, I'm saying Russia will lose militarily also.

Even if they entirely destroy cities and kills hundreds of thousands of civilians.

 

[Valletta]

Ukraine's Zelenskyy addresses Congress, invokes 9/11, Pearl Harbor, MLK as he pleads for pivotal aid

Note that Fox News has been consistently pro Ukraine, and I am citing their story because it is easy to read. Zelenskyy addressed the US congress in protest at our correct decision not to supply them with MiG-29s and provide air support, because the Pentagon and Biden have deemed these actions, correctly, to be “escalatory”, which is a euphemistic way of saying they would prompt a potential nuclear escalation that would lead to WWIII and the end of human life. . .
.

Thank you for your comments. I have no doubt that there is corruption in the Ukrainian government, but realize that the United States government has a lot of entrenched corruption as well. As to nuclear weapons, the United States had a missed perfect opportunity with the fall of the Soviet Union to greatly disarm the nuclear capability of the Russia. I believe this was a lot because the left in the U.S. seemed in love with Soviet leadership.
Because there was a discussion of Ukraine entering NATO was hardly a reason for Putin to attack. I must say that failing to provide MIGs or any other weapons systems is playing into Putin's hands. Putin could claim providing more of any weapon is "escalation." The communists themselves have provided MIGs to many countries in the past. Putin just wants to make sure that not enough firepower is provided to Ukraine for a potential Ukrainian victory.

 

[Andrewn]

South African president blames NATO for Russia-Ukraine war

 

[returntosender]

So they now have conceided that Putin is a war criminal. Does that mean they will go after him one way or another?
If he uses chemical warfare on his people that changes everything in my mind.

 

[Sheila Davis]

I *know* the Catholic Church creates saints. I used to be one. (A Catholic, not a saint.) "Systematic Theology" at least sounds better than a "doctor" of ministry.

Kind person - I never said you didn't know what the Catholic churches did - after all a saint is also considered as a kind, gentle, caring, honest, virtuous, patient, a person who has those type of characteristics. That is why I gave the link because some people alive or deceased are considered saints.
Never heard anyone refer to rev Dr Martin Luther King as a "doctor" of ministry. Yet any minister who preaches the gospel, he is "doctoring" the spiritual part of man and could be considered a doctor of ministry.

 

[The Liturgist]

The only tactical response for Christians, as shown by our Christ Jesus, is to lay down arms and both pray and work for peace.
Obviously, the stakes are much higher for active combatant, and those assailed by enemy forces. My sympathies and prayers are with you. I cannot know the choices you must make. I pray the love and grace of Christ for you.
However, global armchair quarterbacks can easily stop advocating for a war that they have no real stake in. Most plainly, if you are not part of this, do not give easy answers, particularly any that advocate violence.

Thank you for expressing the beautiful sentiments of the historic Peace Churches; I think in the 21st century the human potential for destruction has reached a point where our collective survival requires all denominations to become peace churches to varying extents, in particular based on the tragic failure in Afghanistan to deliver the people of that country from the Taliban after two decades of valiant effort and service, we have to re-evaluate responses to situations, since now, due to incompetent leadership, our military was evacuated from a country, and the same regime that hosted the orchestrators of 9/11, which we had reduced to a mere pockets of resistance, has like a cancer, come out of remission, and once more brutally subjugated women and children, and it seems reasonable to expect it to host the next Islamist man of evil like Al Baghdadi, or Osama bin Laden, or the Ayatollah Khomenei, and a long line of oppressors stretching back to Sudan, where we find Mohammed Ahmed al Mahdi, the first modern Islamic terrorist, who slaughtered the Egyptians and opponents of the self-proclaimed Mahdi in Khartoum, who were failed by Britain as we failed our Afghan allies, although General Charles Gordon chose to die with them as an unarmed Christian martyr, and was impaled while peacefully descending a staircase to meet the invading forces by a spear-wielding fanatic, much like the martyrdom of St. Thomas the Apostle at the hands of a Hindu Rajah in 53 AD.

The real answer is to promote peace through understanding. Apostasy rates among Muslims are increasing, and in the case of Russia and the other former Soviet states that are hostile to us, we need dialogue with them, although by no means can their actions in Ukraine be condoned.

My main concern as a Christian minister in this case is twofold, firstly, to bring peace as swiftly as possible, which in this case looks like a negotiated, but fortunately not an unconditional, surrender by Ukraine to facilitate a peace treaty and the lifting of sanctions, and secondly, to work to achieve forgiveness and reconciliation between the separated brethren of Russia and Ukraine.

Now, I must confess I am not the leader of a peace church; I would, for my part, condone military strikes of the swift, surgical variety, such as that used to discontinue the vital existence of Caliph al Baghdadi, although because he was a coward, he uses innocent boys as human shields and his actions led directly to their tragic death, but for a man responsible for the killing of so many young Yazidi boys and mem, the brutal torture of so many Christian boys and men, who were circumcised without anesthesia, and the rape of so many Yazidi girls and women, such actions were to be expected, but that man will never do that again.

In the case or Zelenskyy and Putin we do not see monstrosity on that scale, but rather, reckless men in the leadership positions of sovereign countries totally devoid of the prerequisite flexibility, patience and humility required by their station, and the tragic consequences of such men being in power. Without full military assistance from NATO, which cannot be provided without risking nuclear war, which is an unimaginable horror, Ukraine can only delay the inevitable, increasing Russian casualties, but at the cost of more devastation of Ukrainian cities, transportation systems and other economic infrastructure, and a loss of agricultural production, the net effects of which will, if the conflict is prolonged, result in poverty and starvation for Ukrainians, which the sanctions against Russia also are likely to cause. This is why we must persuade Ukraine to sue for peace before any more lives are needlessly lost, and any more economic resources are needlessly destroyed.

 

[The Liturgist]

Unfortunately, without nuclear deterrence, the alternative to a global Mexican standoff with Russia is WWII-level conventional warfare where hundreds of thousands of lives are lost. Either situation is horrific, but one is definitely preferable than the other.

You do realize that nuclear deterrence is a two way street? Because clearly you understand the concept, but you argue for Putin to be tried and executed and somehow that’s not going to get thousands of MIRV-equipped missiles with multiple warheads launched at the US?

 

[The Liturgist]

Please forgive me, but could you please explain what makes Zelensky "evil"?

He lied to the US congress and he is actively using the services of the Azov Batallion, who are neo-Nazis, and who pose a risk to his safety as a Jew and that of his countrymen, regardless of religion. And he did mobilize them before Putin had even invaded, which suggests that not only is he innately dishonest but reckless.

By the way, you are aware that the Christian doctrine is that everyone is sinful? The alternative is Pelagianism, which all Christian churches decided to reject on the advice not only of St. Augustine, whose theology many such as the Eastern Orthodox are uncomfortable with, as it is discordant with most other Patristic theologians, especially Greek and Syriac theologians, but of St. John Cassian, another Latin theologian and monastic whose Conferences were once read in nearly every monastery, Eastern or Western, but who from around the Great Schism until the 19th century became obscure in the Western church), except about 13 years ago when someone at the Episcopal Church USA proposed “re-evaluating ... his contribution to Christian theology” but fortunately that proposal (made by a subcommittee that reports to their general conference, I think) was rejected.

 

[Hans Blaster]

[Irrelevant exposition on Islamism excised.]

In the case or Zelenskyy and Putin we do not see monstrosity on that scale, but rather, reckless men in the leadership positions of sovereign countries totally devoid of the prerequisite flexibility, patience and humility required by their station, and the tragic consequences of such men being in power. Without full military assistance from NATO, which cannot be provided without risking nuclear war, which is an unimaginable horror, Ukraine can only delay the inevitable, increasing Russian casualties, but at the cost of more devastation of Ukrainian cities, transportation systems and other economic infrastructure, and a loss of agricultural production, the net effects of which will, if the conflict is prolonged, result in poverty and starvation for Ukrainians, which the sanctions against Russia also are likely to cause. This is why we must persuade Ukraine to sue for peace before any more lives are needlessly lost, and any more economic resources are needlessly destroyed.

Through all of you equivocation of Ukraine and Russia; of Zelenskyy and Putin, you just don't get it do you.

A capitulation by Ukraine would only result in a brutal repression by Putin's army. A repression they are already imposing in the cities they control with replaced mayors, house to house searches, and summary killings.

Does the attainment of "peace" ending the violence known as war with shelling and rockets matter so much to you that you would have the people of Ukraine submit themselves to other violence at the hands of Putin's thugs? Violence they would be even less able to resist.