I am an agnostic looking for faith

[852derek852]

As an agnostic, there are three big questions that I have been struggling with:

1. Are some actions are right and some actions are wrong?
2. Is there some form of existence after we die?
3. Are others conscious? What is the mechanism by which matter generates consciousness?

I believe that in Christianity, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are used to answer these three questions respectively.

For me, the answer to question 3 was fairly easy. I accept that other people are conscious because the alternative is unthinkable. Since people are made of matter that is no different from what the rest of the creation is made out of, it seems reasonable that this line of thinking should not stop merely with humans.

I don't mean to say that a rock 'thinks' in any way that would be recognizable to, or describable by, humans, but I think that there is some consciousness there. In my philosophy, this universe-permeating consciousness is the Holy Spirit.

Death is still a good 50+ years off for me, so I won’t have to deal with the second question for a while, but I’m having a harder time with the first question. As a human being, I try to live by the golden rule, but I have no good reason for this. I am attracted to the idea of Christianity because it provides the moral bedrock on which our civilization is built, and gets into a lot more detail than just “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you”


However, I have a hard time accepting Christianity because in order to accept that a book written by humans could be the word of god, I would need to accept the idea of human exceptionalism. That is to say that there are some configurations of matter (humans) that are favored by/set apart from/above the rest of creation.

Christians who do not believe in evolution side step this problem, but I cannot easily give up my belief in evolution. For me, trying to accept the idea that the entire universe is a mere 6000 years old would require me to spend more time than I have left on this earth trying to re-explain things that fit neatly into the theory that life evolved on an earth that is older than 6000 years.

I’m hoping for a deeper spiritual/philosophical conversation than just creationism vs evolution, but if you do have something to say, I’ll try to keep an open mind.

My question to you is this: Given the premise that we did in fact evolve from nonliving matter, what fundamental, universal quality is it that sets humans above the rest of creation? Why should we and only we (and not rocks or cows) be favored by god?

 

[JoeyArnold]

I believe in Absolute Morality. However, I believe the alternative is relativism, the ability to justify any action, belief, or anything to be right or wrong. I don't believe in relativism but if I did I would believe that what is right for me could be wrong for you, vice versa, & so on & so forth: in other words I believe that relativism produces total anarchy & chaos & destruction & plaques & darkness.

 

[852derek852]

I agree - Moral relativism is a flimsy foundation for ones life. If everyone was a relativist, society would be like the show Jersey Shore. It's summed up by that kids sunday school song:

The wise man built his house upon the rock
The wise man built his house upon the rock
The wise man built his house upon the rock
And the rain came tumbling down


Oh, the rain came down
And the floods came up
The rain came down
And the floods came up
The rain came down
And the floods came up
And the wise man's house stood firm.


The foolish man built his house upon the sand
The foolish man built his house upon the sand
The foolish man built his house upon the sand
And the rain came tumbling down


Oh, the rain came down
And the floods came up
The rain came down
And the floods came up
The rain came down
And the floods came up
And the foolish man's house went "splat!" [clap hands once]


So, build your house on the Lord Jesus Christ
Build your house on the Lord Jesus Christ
Build your house on the Lord Jesus Christ
And the blessings will come down


Oh, the blessings come down
As your prayers go up
The blessings come down
As your prayers go up
The blessings come down
As your prayer go up
So build your house on the Lord Jesus Christ.


Think of me as a foolish man who is in the market for a nice piece of real estate on the rock

 

[852derek852]

I think I see your point though. If you accept that actions can be absolutely right or wrong, then logically you can get to "humans are exceptional because we are capable the only thing capable of distinguishing right from wrong". From there, you can accept that a book writen by humans can be the word of god, and from there, christianity.

The trick is, how do you figure out what is absolute right and what is wrong without having any religion to base it on?

I was thinking I could go in the opposite direction; accept religion, and from there get to absolute morality, but to do that I need to accept that humans are exceptional (above and beyond the rest of creation)

 

[Kalasin]

I believe both in evolution and that Adam and Eve were created only a few thousand years ago. Over billions of years animals evolved into anatomically modern humans who were not made in the image of God. Then, a couple of thousand years ago (precisely how many is not important), God created Adam and Eve in his image. For this reason, they were superior to animals and they had consciousness. To be in the image of God is to be made with special characteristics of God, such as the appreciation and creation of beauty, moral awareness, and even a sense of humour! (none of which animals exhibit.) I mean it could be argued that a bird creates a nest which is beautiful but it does so because it is functional, not because it is beautiful. My dog, as much as I love her, lacks certain qualities (like a sense of humour.) Neither does she walk past a mountain and think, 'how beautiful'. (as an aside, the mountains are a reflection of the beauty of their Creator.) Additionally, Adam and Eve had souls, which means that their actions are not merely the product of impersonal cause and effect, which I think is a logical necessity if humans are merely matter.

Adam and Eve’s children intermarried with anatomically modern humans who were not made in the image of God, and all of their descendants inherited these characteristics (this also explains why in Genesis there are loads of people for Adam and Eve’s children to marry, even though Adam and Eve are the first humans in the modern sense of the word.) It is interesting that Adam and Eve were created in Mesopotamia, which is where the first civilisation dawned. I believe this was because these humans were in the image of God.

You rightly state that humans are conscious and personal. As this is an impossibility if humans just came out of impersonal matter, it is necessary that we have a personal Creator. This is the only logical explanation for the way humans are. Read the book of Genesis again and you will see that God breathes life into humans. As I said, we have souls. Thus modern humans are more than just matter.

This position was first explained to me by a former physics professor called Frank Stootman who now runs an Australian branch of a Christian organisation called L'Abri, which tries to provide answers to seekers with an intellectual bent and to help Christians to explain the reasons that we have for our faith more clearly. L'Abri has a lot of materials on this subject which you can look up on the internet.

As for morality, frankly it is relative in an atheist worldview. However, to the Christian, God himself is our objective standard of morality (he is so good!) That which is inconsistent with his character is wrong. All have fallen short of the glory of God and must accept Christ’s sacrifice in our place because we cannot hope to live up to God’s standards on our own.

I could write a lot more, but this post is getting long. If you are interested I will happily expand.

 

[Faulty]

First off, deciding you have 50+ years left to live is a bit of an presumption. Just because there is an average lifespan, doesn't mean that's your lifespan. I have grandparents who lived into their 90's, a mother who only lived to age 58 and a child who died as a baby, and all of them figure into that average.

Second, the prophets of God were not exceptional humans. They were like everyone else. Concerning these men, Peter gives us an insight into their ministries:

Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.
1 Peter 1:10-12
​

They didn't have any special insight, but basically took dictation, then reviewed the messages given to them, and themselves wondered what some of it meant.

Third, only life gives life. In order for life to exist now, there has to be a source of life in the past that has existed eternally. Since life doesn't come from non-life, then life had no starting point, it just always was, and that starting point calls himself "God".

Spontaneous generation not only isn't scientific, because it is not observable or repeatable, and must therefore be taken as a "fact" on the premise of faith that the "fact" is true. (Plus, it's been scientifically disproven several times over the years.) And because evolution depends on this process to exist, it is also it's own "faith-based" religion, with it's own scriptures and prophets.

You say you're looking for faith, but if you believe in evolution, then you already have one.

 

[852derek852]

I could write a lot more, but this post is getting long. If you are interested I will happily expand.

I definitely would like you to expand

Here's another question though: what if there was no such thing as "impersonal matter"? Since the universe is permiated by the holy spirit, sould it be possible that all matter has a soul? Would be possible to hold this belief and still be a christian?

One example you give is that of your dog. Though it runs around and acts silly, it does not have the same "spark of life" that god gave to Adam and Eve. As I interperit it, that would mean asking "What is it like to be a dog?" is like asking (given that matter can be impersonal) "What is it like to be an ice cube?". There is nothing it is like to be a dog, because dogs don't have souls.

I think it's like something being a dog, or even an ice cube.

Here's an idea: perhaps all matter shares the holy spirit which provides conciousness, but humans have individual spirits, which provide identity and morality

An interesting side note: All animals that can pass the mirror test also mourn their dead.

 

[ChristianT]

I definitely would like you to expand

Here's another question though: what if there was no such thing as "impersonal matter"? Since the universe is permiated by the holy spirit, sould it be possible that all matter has a soul? Would be possible to hold this belief and still be a christian?

One example you give is that of your dog. Though it runs around and acts silly, it does not have the same "spark of life" that god gave to Adam and Eve. As I interperit it, that would mean asking "What is it like to be a dog?" is like asking (given that matter can be impersonal) "What is it like to be an ice cube?". There is nothing it is like to be a dog, because dogs don't have souls.

I think it's like something being a dog, or even an ice cube.

Here's an idea: perhaps all matter shares the holy spirit which provides conciousness, but humans have individual spirits, which provide identity and morality

An interesting side note: All animals that can pass the mirror test also mourn their dead.

Actually, dogs and other social animals DO have souls! They just don't have a spirit, which is what allows the soul to exist forever.

 

[oi_antz]

I don't think it is fair to say that animals don't have souls or morals because they do have morals and depending what you think a soul is, they certainly have a consciousness and have likes and dislikes. Only thing is they can't speak, but they can listen and respond (some more than others). I once told my dog that rabbits have life too and he never killed one again! I think that animals like humans can be spiritually dead and I have read that in scripture. That is the spiritual death that permeated the human race when Adam and Eve sinned. Christ has provided the means to be "born again", which means that when we receive The Holy Spirit, we get eternal life reinstated - that's the link to God that we seem to presume animals don't have. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I've yet to read a scripture that makes it specific. There was certainly a breath of life given from God to man that was not given to any other creature in Genesis.

 

[razeontherock]

A
My question to you is this: Given the premise that we did in fact evolve from nonliving matter, what fundamental, universal quality is it that sets humans above the rest of creation? Why should we and only we (and not rocks or cows) be favored by god?

Psalm 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God:

 

[hedrick]

As an agnostic, there are three big questions that I have been struggling with:

1. Are some actions are right and some actions are wrong?
2. Is there some form of existence after we die?
3. Are others conscious? What is the mechanism by which matter generates consciousness?

I believe that in Christianity, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are used to answer these three questions respectively.

For me, the answer to question 3 was fairly easy. I accept that other people are conscious because the alternative is unthinkable. Since people are made of matter that is no different from what the rest of the creation is made out of, it seems reasonable that this line of thinking should not stop merely with humans.

I don't mean to say that a rock 'thinks' in any way that would be recognizable to, or describable by, humans, but I think that there is some consciousness there. In my philosophy, this universe-permeating consciousness is the Holy Spirit.

I'm not so sure I agree with your answer. The Holy Spirit is God's presence with us. While God is said to have breathed spirit in us, its existence is independent. Otherwise you've got pantheism. I'm not sure what you mean by universe-permeating consciousness is quite what we mean.

Death is still a good 50+ years off for me, so I won’t have to deal with the second question for a while,

You hope.

but I’m having a harder time with the first question. As a human being, I try to live by the golden rule, but I have no good reason for this. I am attracted to the idea of Christianity because it provides the moral bedrock on which our civilization is built, and gets into a lot more detail than just “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you”

However, I have a hard time accepting Christianity because in order to accept that a book written by humans could be the word of god, I would need to accept the idea of human exceptionalism. That is to say that there are some configurations of matter (humans) that are favored by/set apart from/above the rest of creation.

Christians who do not believe in evolution side step this problem, but I cannot easily give up my belief in evolution. For me, trying to accept the idea that the entire universe is a mere 6000 years old would require me to spend more time than I have left on this earth trying to re-explain things that fit neatly into the theory that life evolved on an earth that is older than 6000 years.

I’m hoping for a deeper spiritual/philosophical conversation than just creationism vs evolution, but if you do have something to say, I’ll try to keep an open mind.

My question to you is this: Given the premise that we did in fact evolve from nonliving matter, what fundamental, universal quality is it that sets humans above the rest of creation? Why should we and only we (and not rocks or cows) be favored by god?

But the world doesn't look like a place with complete equality. Even among humans there are differences. God gave everything a place, but it was different. Humans are supposed to be the gardeners, and see that everything lives up to its potential. But those potentials are simply different. Why should God create a large number of identical things. That seems both redundant and uncreative. Of course we have greater potential in both directions, so we can get in far more serious trouble than a dog.

Again, I think you're looking for some kind of pantheism. I just don't think it's very true to the world as it is, or even as God wants it to be.

One question is why God created anything in the first place. I'm inclined to like John Hick's analysis of the purpose of the world as building responsible people. In his analysis, with which I agree, for this to happen we need a world with reasonable defined consequences for actions. We can cope with some humans around doing complex things. But if every rock had as much scope for decision-making as we do, the world would be completely unintelligible. And it would be really terrible to be a human soul trapped in a rock. For the entities with lesser scope, you really want souls that are appropriate to them.