Hymnal Investigation

[MoreCoffee]

OK. You and Isaac can be worms, if that floats your boat. Me, I'll be the righteousness of God.

Have you read the fifty first psalm?

To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

Have mercy on me, O God, according to your steadfast love; according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin! For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being, and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones that you have broken rejoice. Hide your face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit. Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will return to you. Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, O God of my salvation, and my tongue will sing aloud of your righteousness. O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise. For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. Do good to Zion in your good pleasure; build up the walls of Jerusalem; then will you delight in right sacrifices, in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings; then bulls will be offered on your altar.
Psalms 51:1-19 ESV
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There is a shallowness in some of the religion presented from pulpit and in chorus today that betoken a lack of familiarity with scripture. Empty repetitions of five word choruses makes for empty doctrine and empty living. One can hardly be a Christian if all one seeks is to imbibe milk while assiduously avoiding meat. Faith without repentance is not Christian faith.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

Have you considered the possibility that "such a worm as I" is a reference to the hymn writer's self prior to his repentance?
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OK. You and Isaac can be worms, if that floats your boat. Me, I'll be the righteousness of God.

I rather be floating on a boat fishing...........

Act 12:23
Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God.
And he was eaten by worms and died.

 

[graceandpeace]

There is a shallowness in some of the religion presented from pulpit and in chorus today that betoken a lack of familiarity with scripture. Empty repetitions of five word choruses makes for empty doctrine and empty living. One can hardly be a Christian if all one seeks is to imbibe milk while assiduously avoiding meat. Faith without repentance is not Christian faith.

Exactly right!

While I enjoy many contemporary praise songs, many lack substance & are annoying or repetitious & devoid of any scriptural or theological truths. If we sing what we believe... Then I need more than "open the eyes of my heart" repeated 10x over. At this point in my faith walk, I need growth & substance... & I find myself looking into the EOC & the Anglican faith.

Anyway, to the OP, besides annoying modern songs already referenced, I really don't like the song "In Christ Alone" - I think it is a modern hymn? I can't sing the line that "on the cross as Jesus died/the wrath of God was satisfied." I'm sure there are other songs, but that's all I got right now.

 

[MJohn7]

This guys youtube channel has many hymns that he plays, he also talks about who wrote them and sometimes adds the story behind the person who wrote it. This hymn here isn't going to sell many records maybe, but for worship and in times of spiritual tribulation, this could really be helpful i think.

Be Still My Soul - YouTube

 

[MJohn7]

Here's a good one.

Standing On The Promises - YouTube

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I can't sing the line that "on the cross as Jesus died/the wrath of God was satisfied."

Pretty big heresy that one.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Willie T]

I can't sing the line that "on the cross as Jesus died/the wrath of God was satisfied." I'm sure there are other songs, but that's all I got right now.

Can you explain that one a little further?

 

[graceandpeace]

Can you explain that one a little further?

In a nutshell, it's heretical. I don't want to get into a debate about the subject.

 

[mont974x4]

Hearing Arminians sing Blessed Assurance.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Mary did you know gets my eyes rolling.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Willie T]

In a nutshell, it's heretical. I don't want to get into a debate about the subject.

OK. But don't worry about looking up what you're supposed to say about that. I've already read all that substitution theory stuff, and that was no real answer either.

Just thought you might have your own reasons.

 

[MKJ]

OK. You and Isaac can be worms, if that floats your boat. Me, I'll be the righteousness of God.

It's about what he is without God. According to his own merits, he is a worm.

He emphasizes that in order to show just how much God has given him.

 

[MKJ]

I can't bring myself to sing Gather us In. In fact I once volunteered to teach Sunday school in order to get out of singing it in a parish where it was popular.

A priest I know once told me that you should never sing We Plow the Fields and Scatter the Good Seed on the Land for a wedding, even though it is otherwise a very nice hymn.

 

[Willie T]

It's about what he is without God. According to his own merits, he is a worm.

He emphasizes that in order to show just how much God has given him.

Yeah, I can understand all that kind of stuff. But as a Christian who, as my signature and the Bible state, is not a worm, I just can't sing that line. The churches I have attended have all changed that line to read "such a one as I".

 

[Willie T]

BTW, I found some interesting reading on that other line.... the wrath of God was satisfied.

It's long as can be, but it sure reveals a lot

Theology Network - Doctrine of God - The Wrath of God as an Aspect of the Love of God

I had no idea there was such a fear of saying that God has wrath toward sin (or of any kind) that a lot of preachers and composers won't touch the subject with a ten foot pole.

Here's a very small excerpt from the article:

Most preachers and most composers of prayers today treat the biblical doctrine of the wrath of God very much as the Victorians treated sex. It is there, but it must never be alluded to because it is in an undefined way shameful. …God is love; therefore we must not associate him with wrath. God is love; therefore he is indefinitely tolerant. Presumably it is for such reasons that the Christian churches of the twentieth century have in practice turned their backs upon the biblical doctrine of the wrath of God.

This barely scratches the surface of the doctrine.

 

[~Anastasia~]

BTW, I found some interesting reading on that other line.... the wrath of God was satisfied.

It's long as can be, but it sure reveals a lot

Theology Network - Doctrine of God - The Wrath of God as an Aspect of the Love of God

I had no idea there was such a fear of saying that God has wrath toward sin (or of any kind) that a lot of preachers and composers won't touch the subject with a ten foot pole.

Here's a very small excerpt from the article:


This barely scratches the surface of the doctrine.

Yeah I had to be gone most of the day and missed this thread until now - must confess I really wanted to know the reasons there, so I'll read what you posted.

Reading what all y'all wrote, I have a feeling a lot of what I DO sing is probably bad theology, but there are some that I avoid. I was involved with an interpretive dance ministry, so the visuals and the things that "add to" (bad in so many contexts lol) the music actually make the pieces very meaningful to me in some cases.

First one that comes to mind that I don't sing though, is in "Shout to the Lord" .... there is a line that says "Forever I'll love you, forever I'll stand" ... when it gets to the "forever I'll stand" part, I either leave it out or (more often) I'll add under my breath a prayer for the grace to do so.

Somehow it seems presumptuous on my account to proclaim that. I have every intention of doing so, but I feel I should acknowledge that I need His help and grace to do so.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I may be sorry I asked, lol ...

 

[Willie T]

Yeah I had to be gone most of the day and missed this thread until now - must confess I really wanted to know the reasons there, so I'll read what you posted.

Reading what all y'all wrote, I have a feeling a lot of what I DO sing is probably bad theology, but there are some that I avoid. I was involved with an interpretive dance ministry, so the visuals and the things that "add to" (bad in so many contexts lol) the music actually make the pieces very meaningful to me in some cases.

First one that comes to mind that I don't sing though, is in "Shout to the Lord" .... there is a line that says "Forever I'll love you, forever I'll stand" ... when it gets to the "forever I'll stand" part, I either leave it out or (more often) I'll add under my breath a prayer for the grace to do so.

Somehow it seems presumptuous on my account to proclaim that. I have every intention of doing so, but I feel I should acknowledge that I need His help and grace to do so.

I also go right ahead and sing some of the "stinking thinking" (bad theology), but I try to make myself aware of the words so that I guess I am actually rejecting it in my mind. There is little use to talk to most people about things like this, so I just critique it in my mind as I sing... although I do think we all already know that we need Him to do anything (apart from Him, we can do nothing), so I don't see that "standing" one as too big a deal.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

OK. You and Isaac can be worms, if that floats your boat. Me, I'll be the righteousness of God.

Simul iustus et peccator. We can be entirely and totally the righteousness of God and yet entirely and totally sinners. We find our identity in the former, but it is precisely because the righteousness is God's righteousness given to us, not our own righteousness earned or developed, that it is worth anything at all.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I may be sorry I asked, lol ...

The point being that their is no 'wrath of The Father' that was satisfied by the death of Christ. That's theological junk mail.

It's not that there is no wrath, but that 'The Father' did not use 'The Son' as a method of satisfying himself. Which of course would show that 'The Father' lacked satisfaction.

The wrath of God is the wrath of The Holy Trinity. Have we not read of the wrath of the lamb?

Travel back in time far enough and we see that this was not an Apostolic teaching but rather a 'new idea' [partially] proposed by 'Anselm of Canterbury' and further propagated by 'Jonathan Edwards' in a sermon called "Sinners in the hands of an angry God".

To reach the Apostolic teaching on the subject we need to go farther back.

There we find no such idea existed, and that it is a misunderstanding of the character of The Holy Trinity.

"On the Incarnation of the Word" Athanasius, Saint (c. 297-373 )

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/athanasius/incarnation.pdf (A 'must read')

In true Christian theology, The Trinity works in unison, lacking nothing.

God be gracious to me a sinner.