Human's purpose

[Mahammad]

The Baha'i Faith states our purpose here is twofold:
· As individuals, to acquire the spiritual virtues we'll need both now and in the Next Life.
· In aggregate, to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization.

And the purpose of religion is to show us HOW to go about these!

But wasn't civilization based on slavery and evildoing? Humans were much better people when they were hunter-gatherers.Assuming you're not a creationist. The more we advance, it seems the worse we become.

 

[Mahammad]

You show a lot of wisdom in your questions and comments.

If God is all knowing and all powerful He would not need anything and man (a created being) could not provide anything for God.

Since God can be anything He “wants”, He could avoid being anything less than perfect that perfection would include unselfish, unconditional Love.

If God did have that type Love He would not be trying to get anything from humans but would be trying to give a wonderful something to humans. The greatest thing he could give would be this force that compels even God to do all He does (Love) and thus become like God.

If God has been around forever He would have developed the greatest of the greatest attributes. Of all God’s attributes the best “Love” would be the greatest, controlling all other attributes (Love is thus the most power force in all universes). God which is described in the Bible as Love would be compelled by His Love to make beings that could Love like He Loves. Unfortunately, Godly type Love cannot be directly programmed into the being (instinctive) for that love would be a robotic type of love. If God forces the Love on the being (take it or I torture you) that would not be Loving on God’s part and again would not be Godly type Love. God has to allow (give up some of his power) beings to have free will and choose (it must be a real choice and not forced) Love over some likely alternative (in our case it is the perceived pleasures of sin for a season).

We have the earthly objective (that can only be done on earth) of obtaining Godly type Love so we can Love God and others with all our heart, soul, mind and energy. Love is defined by all Christ said and did (you can also look at 1 Cor. 13 and 1 John 4.) Obtaining Love is accepting it as a free undeserving and unconditional gift (Charity). Man due to survival instincts does not like to accept charity especially from a Giver that paid a huge price. The easiest way to accept it is to accept God’s forgiveness (…he that is forgiven much will Love much…)

God’s objective is the most unselfish objective (an attribute of Godly Love) in that God is doing all He can to help people (those willing to accept His help since they have free will) to fulfill their objective. That “all” includes allowing Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kinds, some unwilling individuals to go to hell, and even sinning.

God: hey Adam, I just created you to give you lots of love, but I don't want to torture you, so I'll give you a "choice". If you said no however, you will burn in hell forever!

What a nice "choice" God is giving me.

 

[Pure760]

What's the purpose of humans?

We are an experiement to see what would happen if physical creatures were granted free will. Would they reach for divinity.. or drown in sin. Only time will tell.

 

[BruceDLimber]

But wasn't civilization based on slavery and evildoing?

I wouldn't say it was ever BASED ON evildoing, no!

Slavery was once permitted, but as humanity has evolved and progressed, that practice was first restricted by limitations and has now been forbidden outright!

So there is indeed progress!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

If you said no however, you will burn in hell forever!

On the contrary:

Scripture states that God doesn't intentionally place ANYONE in hell; that's something some of us choose to do to ourselves.

And in any case, it's not forever: scripture also states that God, in His infinite Love and Mercy, assists everyone, even those who've placed themselves in the worst sort of hell, eventually to improve and draw spiritually near to Him (the definition of Heaven)!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[vajradhara]

Yeah, we humans have such a "high" purpose according to Islam. But thank God I know Islam is wrong, I'm nobody's slave.

here here!

well... i would suggest that debt slavery is alive and well and that most people are, if not slaves to the system, indentured servants to the system. nevertheless that is quite a bit different than being created to be a slave, wouldn't you say?

 

[JJWhite]

I think that the word 'slave' brings about negative ideas/emotions, because of what the world has experienced under the label of slavery. I don't feel like being God's slave is like that.

 

[vajradhara]

I think that the word 'slave' brings about negative ideas/emotions, because of what the world has experienced under the label of slavery. I don't feel like being God's slave is like that.

hi JJ,

well... sure. many words have connotations which influence how people understand them. in my own religion's case, for instance, the connotations with the word "Enlightened" really distort what the Buddha is teaching.

in any case, other than engaging in particularly semantic discussions it seems that we are left to deal with the words as they are understood in the common parlance.

that said, could you elaborate a bit on what you mean in that the sense of being a slave isn't meant in the common understanding of the term. granted, being a slave of a creator deity would be far, far different than being the slave of a human and all that follows from such disparity.

 

[JJWhite]

One element that makes it different, I think, is that I believe that God created me and gave me my life. He gave me everything I have, including every word I speak and every thought I think. Even if I am the one producing the words or the thoughts, I know everything that has happened in the past, has happened by His Will. Everything that will happen in the future will be according to His Will, too.. BUT, I don't what that is yet, so I have to make the best choices I can, and what was Willed will occur. So, I completely belong to Him, because that's part of what being a created being entails in my understanding. Yet, I believe that God does not need me or my service at all... rather, part of my needs as a created being is the need for Him. When I make good choices, I am the benefactor. Every good choice I make according to His Commandments is a gift from God. That's besides all the other things He has done and continues to do for me every day. I trust Him.. I know He's always there for me. I expect all the best from Him, and I feel certain that He'll always take care of me. It feels like when I humble myself to Him, it gives me the strength to stand up tall and be confident... to face anything. It's not the kind of relationship of someone forcing me to do things... but of someone who through my service to Him am actually building myself. I don't know.. LOL... does that sort of explain?

I really love the Hadith Qudsi which says that God said: "I am at/will meet the expectations of my slave." I really feel that if one really has good expectations from God, everything seems to work out well.. but when one expects bad, that can be destructive.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Can you explain how? What do you mean by light within me?

What manifests the honorable attributes and morality and what manifests the beauty of God..there is a divine light within all...so there is a light within you, and it's seen to have eternal origin.

 

[Dragons87]

hi JJ,

well... sure. many words have connotations which influence how people understand them. in my own religion's case, for instance, the connotations with the word "Enlightened" really distort what the Buddha is teaching.

in any case, other than engaging in particularly semantic discussions it seems that we are left to deal with the words as they are understood in the common parlance.

that said, could you elaborate a bit on what you mean in that the sense of being a slave isn't meant in the common understanding of the term. granted, being a slave of a creator deity would be far, far different than being the slave of a human and all that follows from such disparity.

If I may butt in with a Christian perspective, the concept of "serving God" isn't the type of "whip crack" servitude. Going back to Exodus we know that God liberated the Israelites from that sort of thing, not so that he himself, instead of the Egyptians, can crack the whip! God rescued the Israelites - and ultimately all mankind - out of love. My servitude to God today isn't so much that he ordered me to, but as a response to his love. The duty to serve is sprung from the "duty" to love. Paul says that we should not be indebted to others, but ought to live as if we were, not out of fear, but out of love for one another. If you love someone you will consider their needs and demands over and above yourself - "servitude", if you want, "sacrifice" is what I prefer to call it.

 

[b&wpac7]

If you love someone you will consider their needs and demands over and above yourself

I disagree with this statement. It's all about balance, not falling over yourself to serve their needs and demands.
From a Jewish book, Ethics of Our Fathers:

Hillel says, "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, who am I? If not now, when?"

 

[Dragons87]

I disagree with this statement. It's all about balance, not falling over yourself to serve their needs and demands.
From a Jewish book, Ethics of Our Fathers:

Hillel says, "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, who am I? If not now, when?"

Yes, yes. Of course it's about balance. Sometimes you can't help others before you sort yourself out!

But for me particularly, because I'm a pretty rebellious and self-centred person, I need to consciously focus on to love and to serve more than I need to focus on catering for my own needs.

 

[vajradhara]

One element that makes it different, I think, is that I believe that God created me and gave me my life. He gave me everything I have, including every word I speak and every thought I think... I don't know.. LOL... does that sort of explain?

well... somewhat. i would suggest that this is part and parcel of what i meant to indicate that there are obvious differences and that, for the sake of discussion, i'm happy to accept those obvious ones and proceed to aspects of it which are not so obvious.

slavery is understood by most sentient beings to be a "bad thing" in the world. i understand that there are clear differences in being a slave of a human vs the slave of a creator deity however the salient points about being a slave remain.

I really love the Hadith Qudsi which says that God said: "I am at/will meet the expectations of my slave." I really feel that if one really has good expectations from God, everything seems to work out well.. but when one expects bad, that can be destructive.

thank you for sharing your view on this.

 

[vajradhara]

If I may butt in with a Christian perspective, the concept of "serving God" isn't the type of "whip crack" servitude. Going back to Exodus we know that God liberated the Israelites from that sort of thing, not so that he himself, instead of the Egyptians, can crack the whip! God rescued the Israelites - and ultimately all mankind - out of love. My servitude to God today isn't so much that he ordered me to, but as a response to his love. The duty to serve is sprung from the "duty" to love. Paul says that we should not be indebted to others, but ought to live as if we were, not out of fear, but out of love for one another. If you love someone you will consider their needs and demands over and above yourself - "servitude", if you want, "sacrifice" is what I prefer to call it.

servants are different than slaves.

thank you for sharing your view.

 

[Dragons87]

servants are different than slaves.

thank you for sharing your view.

Indeed they are...depending on which culture and era you are talking about. But if you have no interest in pursuing this discussion further by not providing what you mean by "different", then we shall leave it at that.

 

[bling]

God: hey Adam, I just created you to give you lots of love, but I don't want to torture you, so I'll give you a "choice". If you said no however, you will burn in hell forever!

What a nice "choice" God is giving me.

I do not think you read my post.

That would not be a choice at all, since it is like putting a gun to your head and saying “Love me”.

The reason for the choice is it is the only way for man to become really like God in that man has the same Love as God, the Love that compels God to do everything He does. It cannot be programmed into man (instinctive/robotic) and it cannot be forced on man like you are suggesting. Man has to accept God’s Love as a free will choice to accept the free gift (charity).

The main reason we do not accept God’s Love is we have pride and desire selfish love over unselfish Love. The choice is made real for us since we can continue to seek the perceived pleasures of sin over becoming like God with Godly type Love.

 

[b&wpac7]

I do not think you read my post.

That would not be a choice at all, since it is like putting a gun to your head and saying “Love me”.

The reason for the choice is it is the only way for man to become really like God in that man has the same Love as God, the Love that compels God to do everything He does. It cannot be programmed into man (instinctive/robotic) and it cannot be forced on man like you are suggesting. Man has to accept God’s Love as a free will choice to accept the free gift (charity).

The main reason we do not accept God’s Love is we have pride and desire selfish love over unselfish Love. The choice is made real for us since we can continue to seek the perceived pleasures of sin over becoming like God with Godly type Love.

You know what?

I have no idea what any of this means. I'm being serious. What is love exactly? Maybe I'm just weird.

 

[StThomasMore]

What's the purpose of humans? This question troubled me for a long time. I don't think there's a purpose, and if there is, it's a purpose we share with all living things. Civilization doesn't prove that we are a special species. I started to review the Abrahamic purpose. I don't know how fool I was to honour such a purpose, I guess it's my human nature. As a child I was smart enough to recognize that my parents know "what's true".


Yesterday I asked myself whats better, existing randomly for no purpose? Or be someone else's slave for eternity?

God is a person, we share the same emotions, so as a person what makes him superior? Sitting on the throne? Imagine if you were on the throne and had the magic stick. Would you do what God did? Would you create billions of slaves and condemn them to hell for being what you created them to be? or Would you create something more meaningful? Why would you even bother with creating others? Unless you felt lonely, and even if you felt lonely why don't you create friends? Why slaves?

And Satan, the rebel, he's actually the good guy. He's fighting the slave-master. If freedom worth dying for, does freedom worth burning in hell for? Being subjective opened my eyes into many realizations. Human's purpose in Abrahamic religions is worse than not having a purpose, it's lower than the purpose of a dog.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, if I did, convince me otherwise.

The purpose of humanity is for humanity to share in the glory of God and give glory in His name. Life can be all summed up in the beatific vision. We were created to be sharers in His gifts and graces. Everything else is secondary after that.

 

[StThomasMore]

I think that the word 'slave' brings about negative ideas/emotions, because of what the world has experienced under the label of slavery. I don't feel like being God's slave is like that.

yea that is true. It changed to a negative connotation after the African slave trade, but before that it didn't have that connotation. A slave back in biblical times would be more like a maid or personal servant in modern terms. That is why the bible doesn't always bring up slavery in a negative way. A person offering his services for food, money and shelter all could be classified as a slave. Many slaves preferred to stay with their masters because of the security it gave them. In today's world many of us are corporate slaves. Instead of it being a single human person, it is rather a large corporate entity that we are servile to in exchange for money to keep up our shelter and subsistence.