How to interact with LGBTQ+

[tonychanyt]

Concerning the issue of homosexuality, I studied the issue from different perspectives and arrived at my conclusion. I think homosexual intercourse is a sin, and I do not support the practice of it. I think each believer should follow his conscience in answering this question. Let God's peace guide you. I leave the eternal judgment to God and live in peace with God, myself, and everyone else.

Concerning the issue of transgender, is it a sin?

I think so. We are called to glorify God in our lives.

In Toronto, I have attended churches that are LGBTQ+ friendly and hugged gay people. I saw the Pride Parade. Many of them are nice people. In Toronto, there are quite a few churches that are officially LGBTQ-friendly, and gay pastors head some.

I sat through sermons delivered by gay pastors many times. 95% of the time, it was no different from a sermon delivered by a non-gay pastor. One church surprised me in that it was my 4th visit before I realized that the pastor was gay! This rainbow church was family-oriented. The majority of the congregation were straight people with kids. They didn't make a special point of it.

Check out this trailer. The full documentary 너에게 가는 길 Coming to You is available on Netflix.

Is supporting the LGBTQ+ community a sin?

I would think so.

Jesus mentioned eunuchs/homosexuals/asexuals in Matthew 19:

12a For there are eunuchs who were born that way.

I ask you: What is the difference between a gay person and one who believes that Mary is the Mother of God?

Bottom line, 1 Corinthians 13:

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

See also

• Transgender people have higher death rates than their cis gender peers

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

I don't think experiencing same-sex attraction is sinful (that may happen without any control), it's just that both the Torah and Paul's writings in the NT clearly condemn homosexual practices for men. I have investigated the efforts of those who try to interpret those writings differently so that homosexual activities within modern day, permanent, committed relations would be excluded from those prohibitions; but I have found those efforts to be quite unconvincing.

So I would not have a problem with a pastor who admits to his same-sex attraction, but I would consider committing the homosexual act for men sinful - regardless the context.

 

[Dikaioumenoi]

Concerning the issue of transgender, is it a sin?

I don't think the feeling itself is a sin. As for transgender expression or behavior, I don't know.

Why not? Is the desire for premarital sex a sin? What about cheating on one's spouse? The common denominator here is that these (including homosexuality and transgenderism) all represent desires that are contrary to nature; contrary to God's design. Desires which are contrary to God's design must be categorized as sinful. Sin, after all, encompasses not only actions but also the desires of our hearts. If God created us in a particular way and we harbor desires to be contrary to that design, it reflects a prioritization of self over obedience to God. That's the essence of sin.

Jesus calls us to deny ourselves and take up our cross (Matt. 16:24-26), which involves waging war against such desires, perhaps especially those which one chooses to associate with their personal identity. I grant that there is a difference between a desire and acting upon that desire. We all struggle with our own unique sinful desires. And my desires for my own sinful struggles are not different, fundamentally, from someone else's desires to be someone other than who God created them to be. But that doesn't make the desire itself okay. Even if we choose not to act upon our sinful desires, they are still sinful desires, hence why it is necessary to deny oneself.

Consequently, I don't find your shift from "not sin" (with regard to the feeling) to "I don't know" (with regard to the act) to be very coherent. How can an action be sinful if the desire for it isn't? Do you have any clear examples of this? What's something that is sinful to do/perform/behave, but not sinful to desire to do/perform/behave?

In Toronto, I have attended churches that are LGBTQ+ friendly and hugged gay people. I saw the Pride Parade. Many of them are nice people...

They are, indeed. I don't doubt it. One of my best friends growing up is gay. But every nice person is a sinner. Amiable behavior isn't an argument against the notion that one is sinful (and maybe it isn't your point that it is; I'm just pointing this out). While I don't think treating LGBTQ+ issues as particularly sinful (i.e. more so than other issues) is warranted, I simply don't find the acceptance and normalization of it to be at all capable of substantiation on a biblical worldview, either. The fundamental point of Paul's message in Romans 1:18ff. is that all manner of things that are contrary to nature (vv. 29-30) -- i.e., contrary to God's design; contrary to his precepts -- are to be repudiated. The desire to be someone other than who God created me to be is an example of this.

And if I can just briefly anticipate the objection of some, who will say, "but God created me this way" ... no he didn't. Romans 1:26-27 (re: homosexuality). Genesis 1:27 (re: transgenderism). There is no "gay gene." Studies have concluded that sexuality, to what extent it is determined by genetics at all, is polygenic, meaning there are thousands of genes that have minor impacts on sexuality. And yet no single one of them, nor the whole of them collectively, determine sexual orientation. It is but one of many factors that go into determining homosexual and transgender tendencies, most of which are environmental and psychological. The influence that biology has on sexual orientation is virtually no different than the influence it has on one's inherent proclivity to perhaps have more lustful thoughts than the average person, or to be more prone to anger, etc. There can be genetic reasons for having a proclivity to such things, and yet that wouldn't excuse them as not being sinful.

Is supporting the LGBTQ+ community a sin?

I don't think so.

What do you mean by supporting it? If what is meant is loving them, as all sinners are to be loved, then no that's not a sin. We ought to do that. But what does that entail? I don't believe that regarding sinful behavior (or desires) as normal and okay is an act of real love, especially when they choose to identify by that behavior or desire. I think it's the opposite, actually. It's an appearance of love, but perhaps only to garner the acceptance and respect of the other, to have it returned to us. We don't want to offend and alienate. So, our solution is to accept and refuse to call it sin. That's not love. Real love for the LGBTQ+ community, just like real love for anyone, is shown in the proclamation of the gospel, which involves, graciously and carefully, the identification of sin, so that the good news of deliverance from that sin and its consequences can be known and experienced.

Jesus mentioned eunuchs/homosexuals/asexuals in Matthew 19:

I read your post at the link provided. I'm a little baffled by the suggestion that homosexuals are included here. What is your evidence for this? "There are eunuchs who have been so from birth" is hardly evidence of same-sex attraction. A literal eunuch is someone who has been castrated. But it's also appropriate to use the term of anyone who, for one reason or another, does not have sexual capacity (for instance, a birth defect). That's all that we can conclude is being said here. It's a huge stretch to bring inclination into this, and we need much more evidence for that idea than an anachronistic reading of the expression, "he was that way from birth."

The actual three categories are:

1. Those who, by no choice of themselves or anyone else, were born without reproductive capacity (i.e. birth defect).
2. Those who, by choice of others, were castrated (for punishment, or for working in harems, etc.).
3. Those who, by their own choice, castrated themselves for the sake of the kingdom (or, possibly the identification of eunuch here is simply meant figuratively to represent celibacy).

The difference is choice; i.e. the reason behind their sexual incapacity. The difference does not pertain to kinds of eunuch, in the sense of defining what a eunuch is (e.g. introducing a differentiation between physical incapacity versus inclination/orientation), but rather why or how they became a sexually incapacitated individual.

In context, Jesus is discussing the problem of following the letter of the law. The example he uses is divorce, because Jewish law permitted divorce, but his point is that this should be reserved for an absolute last resort, and should not be pursued as an easy way out of a difficult marriage just because Jewish law technically permits it. The disciples struggle with this teaching, because they interpret it to mean that no matter how badly a marriage was going, there is no way out of it. This is what prompts them to suggest that in that case "it is better not to marry" at all (v. 10). It's not worth the risk. Jesus' response is to say that not everyone can receive this teaching. So what is it that some can't receive? The idea of marrying someone of the opposite sex? No; the idea of marrying at all without having the option of divorce if things don't go as expected. That's the context. The point is simply that some aren't called to marriage. Jesus brings up the example of eunuchs to illustrate the point, which is that some are called to abstinence from sex, for various reasons. This has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

 

[tonychanyt]

Why not? Is the desire for premarital sex a sin? What about cheating on one's spouse? The common denominator here is that these (including homosexuality and transgenderism) all represent desires that are contrary to nature;

You are right. I deleted the offending sentence in the OP.

What do you mean by supporting it?

You are right again. I edited my OP.

"There are eunuchs who have been so from birth" is hardly evidence of same-sex attraction.irth defect).

Let's move this discussion to Three types of eunuchs according to Jesus

 

[Laodicean60]

In Toronto, I have attended churches that are LGBTQ+ friendly and hugged gay people. I saw the Pride Parade. Many of them are nice people. In Toronto, there are quite a few churches that are officially LGBTQ-friendly, and gay pastors head some.

You have to wonder why they had to start their church in the first place. Judgmental Christians have alienated their neighbors and of course, the media amplifies it which has created hate. The whole problem in the world is that we forgot the Love your Neighbor part of the scripture. I believe in worrying about my salvation and letting others worry about theirs. Just because we love others doesn't mean we condone their sins and I think the Holy Spirit is big enough to convict.

 

[NBB]

In the actual state of things, is hard to write in the internet that is a sin, people have lost jobs and even went to court for sharing bible verses only.
We have to remember that this is perversion, and the lgbt movement is calling good evil and evil good, which is horrible in the eyes of God, i don't care to be political correct, i have to answer before God, and not corrupt my mind, and that the youth have taken lgbt as fashion because of the spread of ideas and the approval of sin, and this is so harming for our relationship with God and even society.

Also a gay friendly church is not a church at all, people need to repent not to receive a pat in the back in their way to hell.

 

[Laodicean60]

We have to remember that this is perversion, and the lgbt movement is calling good evil and evil good, which is horrible in the eyes of God,

Yes, a sin but who wants to cast the first stone? Are you evil because you sin?

In the actual state of things, is hard to write in the internet that is a sin, people have lost jobs and even went to court for sharing bible verses only.

I know when I was a kid the view was worse about homosexual. Do you have gay friends or acquaintances?

God, i don't care to be political correct, i have to answer before God, and not corrupt my mind, and that the youth have taken lgbt as fashion because of the spread of ideas and the approval of sin,

What does it mean politically correct? As a Christian do you think loving a sinner will corrupt your mind? As a parent, you should worry about your own and teach them Godly principles. We should teach our kids not to war against flesh and blood and love our neighbor. Loving your neighbor is not condoning the sin.

I prayed about why there is so much hate in the world and the answer that I got or what kept popping into my head was Love your neighbor. If you look at it through that lens, you would be less prone to drunkenness because If you truly loved your spouse and family you wouldn't drink or commit adultery. Even your thoughts!
Mark 7:20-23 ESV
And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
Mat 5:22
But I say, if you are even angry with someone,[fn] you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot,[fn] you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone,[fn] you are in danger of the fires of hell.[fn]

Now replace the word "angry" with the multitude of negative words that you hold against someone.
ph 6:12
For we[fn] are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.
1Ti 6:10
For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows.

My worldview holds that the devil uses governments, media, and corporations for evil because of money.

One example of media. Remember when a homosexual went to a baker and he refused to serve the gay because of "religious" beliefs, that made headline news and amplified a message that all Christians are anti-gay. Do you think this created the warfare between gays and Christians? Do you think this may be one of the reasons they started their own church because those sinners didn't feel welcomed in ours?

 

[NBB]

Yes, a sin but who wants to cast the first stone? Are you evil because you sin?

I know when I was a kid the view was worse about homosexual. Do you have gay friends or acquaintances?

What does it mean politically correct? As a Christian do you think loving a sinner will corrupt your mind? As a parent, you should worry about your own and teach them Godly principles. We should teach our kids not to war against flesh and blood and love our neighbor. Loving your neighbor is not condoning the sin.

I prayed about why there is so much hate in the world and the answer that I got or what kept popping into my head was Love your neighbor. If you look at it through that lens, you would be less prone to drunkenness because If you truly loved your spouse and family you wouldn't drink or commit adultery. Even your thoughts!
Mark 7:20-23 ESV
And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
Mat 5:22
But I say, if you are even angry with someone,[fn] you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot,[fn] you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone,[fn] you are in danger of the fires of hell.[fn]

Now replace the word "angry" with the multitude of negative words that you hold against someone.
ph 6:12
For we[fn] are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.
1Ti 6:10
For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows.

My worldview holds that the devil uses governments, media, and corporations for evil because of money.

One example of media. Remember when a homosexual went to a baker and he refused to serve the gay because of "religious" beliefs, that made headline news and amplified a message that all Christians are anti-gay. Do you think this created the warfare between gays and Christians? Do you think this may be one of the reasons they started their own church because those sinners didn't feel welcomed in ours?

I'm not hating, if that the case, God himself is a hater too, because he doesn't approve of sin and say people need to repent.
Warning your neighbor is more loving, than what the crowd of 'love and acceptance' is doing, saying you do what you want and pat people on the back with their sins, instead of warning them.
Also you are making false assumptions of what i said.

 

[Laodicean60]

I'm not hating, if that the case, God himself is a hater too, because he doesn't approve of sin and say people need to repent.
Wanting your neighbor is more loving, than what the crowd of 'love and acceptance' is doing, saying you do what you want and pat people on the back, instead of warning them.

Are you repenting for casting stones?

 

[NBB]

Are you repenting for casting stones?

That person wanted to be forgiven, and was told, 'go and sin no more'. Didn't say 'i keep my favorite sin for myself' or you are hating me if you disapprove.

 

[Laodicean60]

False argument, that person wanted to be forgiven, and was told, 'go and sin no more'. Didn't say 'i keep my favorite sin for myself' or you are hating me if you disapprove.

I see the gay as the prostitute and unloving Christians as stone throwers.
Jhn 8:6
This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.[fn]
Jhn 8:7
So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up[fn] and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”
Jhn 8:8
And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
Jhn 8:9
Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience,[fn] went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
Unchecked Copy Box Jhn 8:10
When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her,[fn] “Woman, where are those accusers of yours?[fn] Has no one condemned you?”
Jhn 8:11
She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and[fn] sin no more.”

Nowhere in this that it say she wanted to be forgiven.

I'm not hating,

I used a strong word maybe judgmental.

'i keep my favorite sin for myself'

What are some of the sins you hold dear? Do you believe sins have different levels? I don't.

 

[NBB]

I see the gay as the prostitute and unloving Christians as stone throwers.
Jhn 8:6
This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.[fn]
Jhn 8:7
So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up[fn] and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”
Jhn 8:8
And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
Jhn 8:9
Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience,[fn] went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
Unchecked Copy Box Jhn 8:10
When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her,[fn] “Woman, where are those accusers of yours?[fn] Has no one condemned you?”
Jhn 8:11
She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and[fn] sin no more.”

Nowhere in this that it say she wanted to be forgiven.

I used a strong word maybe judgmental.

What are some of the sins you hold dear? Do you believe sins have different levels? I don't.

We need to repent, i'm not hating, i am not seeing an 'associatoin of adulteres' wanting to become christian and saying, 'we are being hated for being told we are sinning' this is ridiculous, is ABC of christianity, wanting to repent, the bible says the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, those are not who have problems with sin and want to get better, because sometimes that happens,but those who PRACTICE them, and not want to repent.

God gives christians his Spirit, and what sin does, it quenches it, corrupts our soul and body temple of the Holy spirit, that unnacceptable for a christian. We can't have fellowship with God and swim in sin.

 

[Laodicean60]

We need to repent, i'm not hating

Get off the word hate I corrected myself. This is my last post because I don't want to argue. But us Christians have to recognize our hypocrisy when comes to our sins. You say a gay church is not a church.
From the OP:
"I sat through sermons delivered by gay pastors many times. 95% of the time, it was no different from a sermon delivered by a non-gay pastor. One church surprised me in that it was my 4th visit before I realized that the pastor was gay! This rainbow church was family-oriented. The majority of the congregation were straight people with kids. They didn't make a special point of it."

Do you believe the Holy Spirit has the power to change (convict) someone? How does it feel when your sins are pointed out? Peace Out

 

[NBB]

Get off the word hate I corrected myself. This is my last post because I don't want to argue. But us Christians have to recognize our hypocrisy when comes to our sins. You say a gay church is not a church.
From the OP:
"I sat through sermons delivered by gay pastors many times. 95% of the time, it was no different from a sermon delivered by a non-gay pastor. One church surprised me in that it was my 4th visit before I realized that the pastor was gay! This rainbow church was family-oriented. The majority of the congregation were straight people with kids. They didn't make a special point of it."

Do you believe the Holy Spirit has the power to change (convict) someone? How does it feel when your sins are pointed out? Peace Out

Is important we stop sinning or we may end up badly.... most christians i would say are not hating, but God has put in place morals for a reason. I'm not going to boast if i am sinning or not, this is not the place to confess. But i take seriously the morals of God.
The bible, says God can't be fooled, if we sow for the flesh, we are going to harvest death.

 

[TPop]

Concerning the issue of homosexuality, I studied the issue from different perspectives and arrived at my conclusion. I think homosexual intercourse is a sin, and I do not support the practice of it. I think each believer should follow his conscience in answering this question. Let God's peace guide you. I leave the eternal judgment to God and live in peace with God, myself, and everyone else.

Concerning the issue of transgender, is it a sin?

I think so. We are called to glorify God in our lives.

In Toronto, I have attended churches that are LGBTQ+ friendly and hugged gay people. I saw the Pride Parade. Many of them are nice people. In Toronto, there are quite a few churches that are officially LGBTQ-friendly, and gay pastors head some.

I sat through sermons delivered by gay pastors many times. 95% of the time, it was no different from a sermon delivered by a non-gay pastor. One church surprised me in that it was my 4th visit before I realized that the pastor was gay! This rainbow church was family-oriented. The majority of the congregation were straight people with kids. They didn't make a special point of it.

Check out this trailer. The full documentary 너에게 가는 길 Coming to You is available on Netflix.

Is supporting the LGBTQ+ community a sin?

I would think so.

Jesus mentioned eunuchs/homosexuals/asexuals in Matthew 19:


I ask you: What is the difference between a gay person and one who believes that Mary is the Mother of God?

Bottom line, 1 Corinthians 13:


See also

• Transgender people have higher death rates than their cis gender peers

1. Mary is not the mother of God. God is not the offspring of anyone.
2. Transvestites have a higher suicide rate than anyone as far as I know. I don't use cis, them, they're, etc.
3. Homosexuality is not normal sin. It is an abomination. It has no allowances. Incest, divorce, even murder had allowances that were closed off. Homosexuality and inappropriate behavior with animals never had this.
4. It's not an issue of personal beliefs. God did not leave homosexuality up to us, or ask for our approval on it. It is a solid no. Like all sin. In this case a sin of abuse of self and others and without love. It is one of the worst things one can do and it cannot be approved of by Christians.
5. Homosexuals in Church is fine. I would never go to one that was led by one or had Homosexual members.
6. Homosexuals predominatly arise out of homosexual abuse by family or those in authority.
7. I would be very careful about having homosexuals around Children. This is who grooms children with secreates telling children theey're parents won't love them any ore if they tell them.
8. Supporting homosexuals to help them have a more fuller life in Christ is wonderful. Condoning their state is not wonderful.
9. Homosexuals and transvestites are welcome in my home. And have been welcomed in my home regularly. But not to approve of any of their actions.

Peace and Blessings

 

[tonychanyt]

Homosexuals predominatly arise out of homosexual abuse by family or those in authority.

reference?

 

[TPop]

reference?

20 years of Therapy experience.
A decade in high-level foster care and group home care.
Raised children who have friends whose parents are bad to abusive.
Common Sense.
Spiritual Sense.
Acknowledging evil and where it comes from and who it impacts.

There are no studies that reveal this. Few would participate in that kind of questionnaire.

It is all about abuse. It's hidden. But it is there.

Peace and Blessings

 

[tonychanyt]

20 years of Therapy experience.
A decade in high-level foster care and group home care.
Raised children who have friends whose parents are bad to abusive.
Common Sense.
Spiritual Sense.
Acknowledging evil and where it comes from and who it impacts.

In other words, you have no journal publications to support your claim that
Homosexuals predominatly arise out of homosexual abuse by family or those in authority.

I prefer to debate with people who can provide reference publications.

 

[TPop]

In other words, you have no journal publications to support your claim that
Homosexuals predominatly arise out of homosexual abuse by family or those in authority.

I prefer to debate with people who can provide reference publications.

Truth does not require peer-reviewed publication or even publications. If one wants truth, one goes to the source. Pretty much anyone can be published. Most that are published didn't do the work or experience the process. Just reported on it.

And as abuse goes, one will never find a publication with very good data or much value. People don't report abuse, all abuse, different kinds of abuse, multiple abuse, and often don't even know what constitutes abuse. Few will ever admit to being raped, molested, groomed, etc. Because it makes them feel bad about themselves. Maybe 10% of the population will answer. And that is horrible stats.

Also, publications, peer reviews, etc. have limited ethical controls. In social work, fail at ethics, you lose your license. In research, writing, and publishing, one can lie as much as one likes. E.g., a Stanford-aligned clinic was recently caught falsifying cancer research papers. They get paid to falsify. It earns them money. And after they are outed, they get covered over as much as possible. And they don't go away. They just move along.

Enjoy forming opinions on the lack of truth.

Peace and Blessings

 

[tonychanyt]

Truth does not require peer-reviewed publication or even publications.

Right.

Please read my writing carefully and don't overgeneralize. I prefer to debate with people who don't. This has been the 2nd time I asked you to show some scholarship.