How should I understand predestination?

[alexiscurious]

This is a concept I don't fully understand. What does the Bible say about it?

 

[ebia]

This is a concept I don't fully understand.

Neither do many of us.

 

[oi_antz]

The bible carries a consistent message that we need to choose. We need to value righteousness and shun sin. At the crux of the idea of predestination is salvation. To get your answer to the question of predestination, you need to get an answer to the question of what determines salvation. Since there is only one man who can answer that question, I think any other discussion is only going to reveal personal preferences and biases.

 

[Inkfingers]

This is a concept I don't fully understand. What does the Bible say about it?

Many believe that the Bible teaches "Freewill", but does it really?



The Bible teaches that we make choices but not that those choices are free. On the contrary the Bible teaches that those choice are not free but rather planned for the greater glory of God.

• “In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God” (John 1:1)
• “All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3)
• “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things” (Isaiah 45:7)
• “No one has authority unless it is given them” (John 19:11)
• “The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” (Proverbs 16:4)
• “And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh” (Exo 9:12)
• “I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go” (Exo 4:21)
• “Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden” (Romans 9:18)
• “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn” (John 12:40)
• “all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose” (Romans 8:28)
  “Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.” (Matt 10:29)
• “he chose us in him before the foundation of the world” (Eph 1:4)
• “he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will” (Eph 1:5)
• “written in the book of life from the foundation of the world” (Rev 17:8)
• “whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire” (Rev 20:15)
• “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already” (John 3:18)
• “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day” (john 6:44)
• “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me” (John 10:27)
• “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given” (Matt 13:11)
• “no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. ” (John 6:65)
• “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast ” (Eph 2:8-9)

The Bible does NOT teach “Freewill”. It teaches about choice, yes, but that choice is no more free than is the choice of a beetle to choose one leaf or another.

 

[Inkfingers]

We are the creation, not the creator. We exist to serve God and belief in Freewill is rebellion against him.

If we ever had Free Choice, it would be an act that we could boast of, which denies salvation by GRACE ALONE.

Think of it as a form of Determinism if that helps, and if that is uncomfortable, keep in mind that ego, vanity and pride are what are discomforted there....

 

[vespasia]

Alexi,

Take it from me its one of those debates the best biblical scholars, christian theologians and so on still have not managed to answer.

Its a human idea of how God MIGHT work derived from the words written by Paul of Tarsus. Even he admitted to not knowing all and considered that focussing upon following Christ was the better way.

1 Tim 1 3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

 

[98cwitr]

Predestination is the doctrine that before we were created, our Omniscient and Sovereign God chose the elect for His salvation (sheep) and the damned for destruction (goats). So there are a few pieces of this.

Predestination in Scriptural Context

Romans 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will

Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Supporting Scripture

Romans 9

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?


As we can see, and also logically deduce based on the Omniscient and Creator attributes of God, that God chooses to create both the saved and the damned with full knowledge of their final destination. We all have a purpose in His Creation, but we don't get to decide to save ourselves. That is for God to decide (and He has already done so even prior to the Beginning).

Scripture regarding the elect

Matthew 24:22-31New International Version (NIV)

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[a]
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[c] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Romans 11:7-10 New International Version (NIV)

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[a]
9 And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”


2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness—

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,