How reliable is the Old Testament and the first books of the Bible

Verward

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So you agree that a layman with a KJV in one hand and Strong's in the other can find out all there is to know about Genesis?

The Bible is not a revelation to us as individuals, it is a revelation to the entire company of the faithful, who must study it together, with all of the scholarly expertise which they jointly possess.
I disagree with the first statement because it is incomplete on two points: "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13 (KJV) and "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" 2 Thes. 2:10,11 (KJV). A layman or expert can study indefinitely and not understand unless the Holy Spirit guides them into the truth, and unless a person actually has a love for the truth they will end up deluded and confused.

But this is deviating a long way from my original question of did the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt happen as described?
 
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Speedwell

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But this is deviating a long way from my original question of did the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt happen as described?
Not so far, I think. It turns on the question of what the truth of scripture actually is, and whether it consists of nothing but accurate historical facts.
 
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Hieronymus

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We need divine guidance to understand scripture, and we never in this lifetime understand all scripture.
We need an ear to hear and an eye to see.
We make the decision to pursue the truth or not.

I don't know, maybe you're right...
 
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Hieronymus

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(see above)
I said this because there's more than just your KJV and a Strongs to get the picture.
It seems, although i tend to be a Sola Scriptura Christian, that the book of Enoch has lots of valuable information too, and the world we live in is the context to all of the Bible.
 
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Verward

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I said this because there's more than just your KJV and a Strongs to get the picture.
It seems, although i tend to be a Sola Scriptura Christian, that the book of Enoch has lots of valuable information too, and the world we live in is the context to all of the Bible.
The question then becomes one of what writing can be considered as scripture. To me it seems that a minimum requirement for something to be scripture is that it has to be correct. This is why I raise the question of the historical accuracy of the exodus account, and the account of Joseph and his family moving to Egypt. If hypothetically for example when Joseph moved to Egypt there was actually no centralised government and no role of second in the land we could reasonably conclude that the account was incorrect. If chariots weren't used as weapons of warfare in Egypt around the time of the exodus then the account was incorrect.

Actually, things do line up very well between the best available historical information and the biblical account. The only thing that baffles me is why some people don't want to know.
 
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Speedwell

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The question then becomes one of what writing can be considered as scripture. To me it seems that a minimum requirement for something to be scripture is that it has to be correct. This is why I raise the question of the historical accuracy of the exodus account, and the account of Joseph and his family moving to Egypt. If hypothetically for example when Joseph moved to Egypt there was actually no centralised government and no role of second in the land we could reasonably conclude that the account was incorrect. If chariots weren't used as weapons of warfare in Egypt around the time of the exodus then the account was incorrect.

Actually, things do line up very well between the best available historical information and the biblical account. The only thing that baffles me is why some people don't want to know.
Some of us don't always use literal historicity as a test for what is divinely inspired scripture and what is not.
 
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Verward

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Some of us don't always use literal historicity as a test for what is divinely inspired scripture and what is not.
God is not a man, so he does not lie.
He is not human, so he does not change his mind.
Has he ever spoken and failed to act?
Has he ever promised and not carried it through?
Numbers 23:19 (NLT)
 
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Speedwell

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God is not a man, so he does not lie.
He is not human, so he does not change his mind.
Has he ever spoken and failed to act?
Has he ever promised and not carried it through?
Numbers 23:19 (NLT)
Some of us don't regard something other than strict literal historicity in an inspired religious text as a "lie."
 
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Verward

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Some of us don't regard something other than strict literal historicity in an inspired religious text as a "lie."
Divinely inspired scripture must be reflecting a divine nature. A mistake that is not just some copying or translation error is an indication that the original source was flawed. Historicity doesn't prove something is divinely inspired, but a lack of historicity is at the very least a warning sign that something may be wrong, either with the archaeology or with the "scripture".
 
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Speedwell

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Divinely inspired scripture must be reflecting a divine nature. A mistake that is not just some copying or translation error is an indication that the original source was flawed. Historicity doesn't prove something is divinely inspired, but a lack of historicity is at the very least a warning sign that something may be wrong, either with the archaeology or with the "scripture".
Or the assumption that literal historicity was the intent of the author.
 
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Verward

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Or the assumption that literal historicity was the intent of the author.
It is certainly true that not everything was intended to be taken literally, such as the example of being carried on eagle's wings, or the bread and wine not turning into the literal flesh and blood of Jesus.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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To me it seems that a minimum requirement for something to be scripture is that it has to be correct.

But again, you are ignoring the important points that have been raised by myself and others regarding the means by which the determination of "correctness" is made. The assumptions of modern historical criticism (which you seem to have adopted as your default paradigm for interpretation) place very strict parameters on the definition of "historicity" and use these to adjudicate the relative "value" of the text based upon the conclusions. That which achieves the assumed level of "historicity" is "truth", while everything else is relegated to the "mythological" or "figurative", both of which carry a not-so-subtle pejorative connotation.

However, the criteria employed by this interpretive paradigm are not objective, are not universal, and are certainly not immune to criticism in their own right. I'm not suggesting that they are necessarily "wrong", only that they are simply another set of arbitrary standards that are used to justify the philosophical assumptions of those making the interpretations.

So then, to impose a "minimum requirement" upon the Scriptures from this set of arbitrary requirements doesn't really establish anything about the Scriptures themselves; it only embeds an artificial bias that will necessarily obscure whatever the original authors might have been attempting to communicate. The only way such obfuscation will not occur is if the imposed biases are the same held by the original authors; however, given that it is extremely difficult (if not actually impossible) to demonstrate what these biases were (and whether they faithfully correspond with their assumed modern-day counterparts), we can only hold with skepticism the conclusions that are derived from the starting, alien assumptions.

This is why I raise the question of the historical accuracy of the exodus account, and the account of Joseph and his family moving to Egypt. If hypothetically for example when Joseph moved to Egypt there was actually no centralised government and no role of second in the land we could reasonably conclude that the account was incorrect. If chariots weren't used as weapons of warfare in Egypt around the time of the exodus then the account was incorrect.

That a modern interpreter determines that the events of an ancient narrative "didn't happen" (according to modern biases and assumptions regarding the nature of historicity) doesn't actually tell us that the account is "incorrect". It would only be "incorrect" if we believe the ancient writer to be recording these events while operating under the same notions of historicity that the modern mind values. If the ancient writer, on the other hand, did not presuppose such categories and values, it's difficult to suggest that the account is "incorrect", for the assumptions under which it was written (and the message it is attempting to communicate) are not parseable within the domain of modern biases regarding historicity.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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Divinely inspired scripture must be reflecting a divine nature.

A nice sound-bite, but this doesn't actually say anything. In order to make a correlation between the two, you'll have to trot out a litany of assumptions that have absolutely no chance of substantiation. That is, we have no means of identifying or measuring what "divinely inspired literature" looks like. If we had a set of objective, transcendent criteria by which to being the search, the task would be much easier. However, we don't. So then, to say that "historicity" or "inerrancy" or any other criterion *must* be a mark of divinely inspired literature is not only asking a question that can't be answered, but worse sets up a facade that is vulnerable to the most basic of attacks, as a single contradiction can bring everything crashing down.

But the more important point of "inspiration" that should be understood is that such needs no defense. Christians do not cherish the Scriptures and "believe" what they say because they are particularly "accurate" in their history, or uniquely "profound" in their philosophy, or any other external criterion. Christians believe the Scriptures to be inspired because they are "our" book. It is the testimony of the people of God to the history of salvation being worked out within our lives, personally and collectively. They need not be established on any other basis, and I would suggest that any attempt to do so is ultimately doing a disservice (if not violence) to the Scriptures.

A mistake that is not just some copying or translation error is an indication that the original source was flawed.

Why? Upon what basis is this a necessary conclusion? It smacks very much of the biases of modern historical criticism, which itself is based on arbitrary assumptions and biases. You can make this claim all you want, but you have no means by which to substantiate it. Frankly, I don't know why Christians bother with such questions; the Scriptures are our book; they doesn't need to be justified to anyone.

Historicity doesn't prove something is divinely inspired, but a lack of historicity is at the very least a warning sign that something may be wrong, either with the archaeology or with the "scripture".

Why? Upon what basis is this a necessary conclusion? You talk about "historicity" as if it is an objective domain of human knowledge, as if our understanding and determination of "history" follows a set of universal, transcendent, and self-evident principles.

Reality could not be farther from the truth. History, as a concept, has a very high level of plasticity. Not only have notions of historicity changed in terms of the phenomenology of events (e.g., the "happened-ness" of an event, and the means by which to establish the same), but also (and more importantly) our valuation of history has evolved (changed) through each philosophical paradigm shift within human thinking. Therefore, when we link our current philosophical biases about history to our valuation of the "histories" recorded within Scripture, we run a grave risk of silencing the authors of the text and substituting our own meanings and values. This is particular dangerous when our understanding of history makes it difficult to treat texts as we would treat "historical" texts. Since our philosophical biases have gutted us of the ability to value, appreciate, and find meaning in anything that smacks of "myth", we enforce our biases upon the text, possibly transforming them into something they were never intended to be. And all this in the name of "defending" the Scriptures.
 
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Speedwell

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It is certainly true that not everything was intended to be taken literally, such as the example of being carried on eagle's wings, or the bread and wine not turning into the literal flesh and blood of Jesus.
How do you determine that intention?
 
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alexandriaisburning

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It is certainly true that not everything was intended to be taken literally, such as the example of being carried on eagle's wings, or the bread and wine not turning into the literal flesh and blood of Jesus.

It's hard to understand how one can differentiate between what is "intended" to be taken literally and what is not, or why the assumption that there would even be a difference is being made in the first place.

Additionally, we still run into the tricky business of what "literal" means, given the context in which it's used. For the modern interpreter, "literality" is linked principally with the ability of the phenomenon to be linked with empirical demonstration. This linkage, of course, is predicated by the innumerable biases and presuppositions of modern thinking in general.

But what of ancient peoples who did not share our biases? Did "literality" mean the same thing to them? Perhaps in their thinking, the mythological *was* literal, since they did not share the same biases about historicity that we do. If so, is there not room to suggest that perhaps the authors, when composing mythological narratives, actually intended them to be interpreted "literally"?

This is mostly a thought experiment, but I think it illustrates the point that we cannot simply allow our assumptions about history and "literality" to unduly influence our interpretation of Scripture. As much as we want the Scriptures to "speak our language", the point is that the ancient authors thought about the world in extremely different ways than we do. Until we can come to grips with this and allow their voices to speak, we'll continually walk on frustrated, fruitless ground.
 
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Speedwell

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Why assume otherwise?
Because of atheistic beliefs??
No, because of the rarity of such an intention in ancient literature generally, even up to relatively recent centuries.
 
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Hieronymus

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No, because of the rarity of such an intention in ancient literature generally, even up to relatively recent centuries.
According to whom?
I think you just don't believe it because you use a modern day worldly paradigm.
 
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