How many agree with this

[TraderJack]

Originally Posted by TraderJack

Paul said, "Men of Athens, I can see that you are religious men, and even have a temple to an "unknown god". I am here to tell you who that unknown God is."

what about the "that"?

I give up, what about it?

 

[TraderJack]

The demons believe in one God, too.
Are they in that sense, Catholic?

You raise a valid point there bro.

 

[TraderJack]

Well, we believe in the Trinity and Jesus Christ, they do not.

Which makes their god a false god, just as the god of Mormonism is a false god, or the god of the Arians is a false god.

But their religion is also monotheistic, so that's a start.

Which does not make their god the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

It's not the words they use that defines their god, but the meanings they pour into those words.

I have a question for you...Before I became a Christian, I was a 'general theist' (after being agnostic for several years)...I believed that there is a God

The demons believe that, and tremble.

, although I had not yet accepted Christianity (or any other religion). I was seeking Him

Humans do not seek the True God, they are content to be their own god just as Adam was when he rebelled, and all humans born of Adam since are.

If anyone comes to Christ truly, it is because God seeks them, draws them like water being drawn from a well, and regenerates them to new life so they can and do believe in Christ, love, trust and obey God.

and then came to know Christ. Would you say that I believed in God, or something else?

Many believe in some sort of deity, a force of some type, but that does not constitute geuine belief in The One True God.

 

[TraderJack]

Pope JPII never meant that their understanding of God is true or that Islam=Catholicism... simply that Muslims and us share a belief in one God, even if they're wrong on everything else, they still have that.

Correction, pay close attention for JPII and Lumen Gentium both say that Roman Catholicism and Islam "adore"(ie-worship), "one and the same" god.

The document: "Nostra Aetate" states:

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men.

Is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ the same as Allah?



The Biblical doctrine on the Trinity is correctly expressed in the Nicene and Athanasian creeds:

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father…We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life…

Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal.​

The importance of the doctrine of the Deity of Christ cannot be overstated. Unless the Son is truly God and 'one with the Father', Christians would be idolaters, for we regard Jesus as our Lord and Saviour and gladly worship him. If Jesus were not God, we would be found trusting in a creature for our salvation. But we confess that Jesus is not merely another prophet, but the Son of God. The Jews in hid day understood well what he meant by that title: 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God' (John 10:33). They did not believe his claim to Deity and condemned him to death for blasphemy. But Christians understand his claim and believe him; we trust and worship the Son of God; we live and die for our Lord. For in Christ we know God in truth:

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life (1 John 5:20, 21)

The Son is the true God; any other god is an idol.

Islam vehemently rejects the doctrine of God as revealed in Holy Scriptures.

Islam denies the Trinity:

Certainly they disbelieve those who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve (Sura 5:73).

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not 'Three' - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son (Sura 4:171).

Islam denies the Father and the Son:

The Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them (Sura 9:29-30).

It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified (Sura 19:35).​

​

Islam denies the Deity of Christ:

The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God’s apostle (Sura 4).

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is Christ the son of Mary (Sura 5:72).​

And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right (Sura 5:116).​

In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary (Sura 5:17).​

Clearly then, the Quran denies:

1. The Trinity;
2. The Sonship of Christ;
3. The Deity of Christ.
​

The conclusion is inevitable: the god of Islam is not the same God of the Holy Scriptures. Christians do not adore the same God as Muslims. Muslims are not merely ignorant of the Triune nature of God and the Deity of the Son: the Quran explicitly negates the doctrine of Christ as taught in the Bible. Rather than adoring God with us, Muslims pray to their god that he might destroy us because of our faith in Christ, the Son of God.

'The Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them' (Sura 9:29-30)

How could Roman Catholics and Muslims worship the same God since Muslims deny the Trinity, the Sonship and the Deity of our Lord?

Quite frankly, the statement that Catholics and Muslims adore the same God is false. I won't speculate on the motives of the Roman Catholic hierarchy for making this false assertion. However, it should be evident to every Roman Catholic who has placed their confidence in the infallibility and unchangeableness of the Roman magisterium, that in fact the Vatican's teaching on this matter has changed and that it is both fallible and in grievious error bordering on blasphemy.
​

 

[simonthezealot]

Correction, pay close attention for JPII and Lumen Gentium both say that Roman Catholicism and Islam "adore"(ie-worship), "one and the same" god.

As well the catechism of the Roman church...

Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/841.htm


841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

 

[TraderJack]

Originally Posted by Rdr Iakovos
I could not disagree more.
Of course, I won't speak for Catholics

In some ways so do I.

I know what you mean.

But now instead of just 1 billion RCs to contend with, we will have 2 billion if you include the Muslims

Which brings to mind:

Matthew 7

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and most who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Having the greater numbers does not work in their favor.

 

[TraderJack]

Originally Posted by QuantaCura
God can be discovered through natural means, as St. Paul testifies. He also testifies that the pagans with the altar to the unknown God were worshipping the true God without knowing it.

Muslims don't worship contingent beings as idolators do (including polytheists). Rather, like Jews and other non-Christian monotheists they acknowledge the one transcendant God, Creator of all that can be known by natural means. Just because they believe something to be His revelation that isn't, doesn't mean it's the not the same God.

A good read on this is the chapter on Islam in Hillaire Belloc's book, "The Great Heresies."

St. Gregory VII, a crusader, affirmed the same thing as did St. John Damascene who described Islam as a heresy.

And I shall create a God, call Him Jack, and attribute to Him interactions with Moses, and voila! same God as y'all, sans the higher revelation of the Christian Church. I shall then pursue converts among your people, and subdue your lands- and ye shall call me brother.

what utter tripe.
Baal worship, the worship of my brother.
Lord have mercy.

Excellent points.

The worshippers of Baal or Molech were monotheistic too.

Would Roman Catholics agree that they worship the same god as those Canaanites who worshipped Baal?

 

[Theophorus]

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Is the god of Islam and Roman Catholicism one and the same god?

I disagree, Our God is the undivided Trinity who has revealed himself to us in the hypostasis od Christ. It is not the same as what Islam worships, nor is it the same as what Mormons etc. worship.

 

[TraderJack]

The God of the Jews, Muslims, and Christians is the same God.

You and your fellow Roman Catholics may have the same god as the Muslims, but do not speak for me and other Christians who do not worship "one and the same" god as Islam.

Thanks for your cooperation.

 

[simonthezealot]

If they serve a false god then the Muslims do not adore the one true merciful God.
NO Trinity and denial of the deity of Christ.
They deny the true God and are not capable of adoring the true God as long as they hold to their false teachings.

 

[TraderJack]

If they serve a false god then the Muslims do not adore the one true merciful God.
NO Trinity and denial of the deity of Christ.
They deny the true God and are not capable of adoring the true God as long as they hold to their false teachings.

The following contains some things other Roman Catholics have to say on this and other matters:

http://www.romancatholicism.org/101-john-paul.htm

An exerpt:

101 Heresies of John Paul II

By Patrick J. Pollock​

Heresies of John Paul II

3. Muslims worship the One True God.

 

[Rick Otto]

"... bordering on blasphemy."
LOL. TJ, you're goin' soft.
It would be more accurate to say it is "bordering on truth".

Rdr, I don't think it is accurate to say God is discoverable by natural means.
I think God is deniable by natural means, but is only "discovered" by divine means.
I think it's Romans 1:20 that says knowledge og God is innate to His creatures in such a way that none are without excuse.
It would be for that reason that it must be the fool who says in his heart,"There is no God".

 

[Albion]

If they serve a false god then the Muslims do not adore the one true merciful God.
NO Trinity and denial of the deity of Christ.
They deny the true God and are not capable of adoring the true God as long as they hold to their false teachings.

Maybe the question is this...

Let's say that we all have the same god in mind when we worship. It's not, therefore, the case that one of us worships the God of the Hebrew Bible and some other of us worships a firebreathing giant turtle or Krishna.

But what if each of us defines that god differently?

For example, and hypothetically, one says that he demands his people kill all non-believers or doesn't save anyone eternally regardless, and he's an ascended human being who once was like ourselves. The others of us say that he is a spirit, wants us to forgive our enemies, and that he loves his creatures so much that he provided for us an eternity of bliss with him.

Are all these people worshipping the same god just because all are aimed at the same one taken from human history?

 

[TraderJack]

"... bordering on blasphemy."
LOL. TJ, you're goin' soft.

Which reminds me to have my yearly checkup soon.

 

[sunlover1]

Which reminds me to have my yearly checkup soon.

Dont feel bad, he thought my flesh was starting to wiggle.

soft for you, loose for me. Sigh.
Good to have friends like rick around
keeping us on our toes.

 

[TraderJack]

Maybe the question is this...

Let's say that we all have the same god in mind when we worship. It's not, therefore, the case that one of us worships the God of the Hebrew Bible and some other of us worships a firebreathing giant turtle or Krishna.

But what if each of us defines that god differently?

For example, and hypothetically, one says that he demands his people kill all non-believers or doesn't save anyone eternally regardless, and he's an ascended human being who once was like ourselves. The others of us say that he is a spirit, wants us to forgive our enemies, and that he loves his creatures so much that he provided for us an eternity of bliss with him.

Are all these people worshipping the same god just because all are aimed at the same one taken from human history?

Exactly. Mormons say they worship the same god, the God of Abraham too.

So, we must look past the words used, and into the meanings that are poured into those words, which clearly defines the god of Islam is NOT "one and the same" God of the Holy Scriptures and historic Christian faith.

Now, if Roman Catholics want to worship Allah along with the Muslims, they are free to do so, but I do not think the One True God will be amused.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The following contains some things other Roman Catholics have to say on this and other matters:

http://www.romancatholicism.org/101-john-paul.htm

An exerpt:

101 Heresies of John Paul II

Perhaps the Muslims received a lot of their rather "Unscriptural" views from the first early church, RCC and even from the Jews.


1Timothy 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than edifying which is in faith: so do.

1Timothy 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto righteousness.

2Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

http://foru.ms/t5615012-jesus-christ-was-he-sent-for-all-mankind.html
-jesus-christ-was-he-sent-for-all-mankind

Hello.We muslims believe he was sent to the sons of Israel not for all mankind.This doesnt mean the one who follows Him in real does a wrong job but this is God's plan for He sent Muhammed-aleyhissalam-to all mankind.Which proofs do christians have to claim that Jesus was sent to entire humanity and not only to the israelites?

 

[TraderJack]

Dont feel bad, he thought my flesh was starting to wiggle.

You shouldn't be doing the "hip shake boogie" in the doc's office.

Good to have friends like rick around
keeping us on our toes.

Yep, and keeping his eye out for the stalker.

 

[simonthezealot]

The following contains some things other Roman Catholics have to say on this and other matters:

http://www.romancatholicism.org/101-john-paul.htm

An exerpt:

101 Heresies of John Paul II

Looks like those catholics thought JP2 taught heresy101...

 

[Rick Otto]

You shouldn't be doing the "hip shake boogie" in the doc's office.




Yep, and keeping his eye out for the stalker.

He's having a religious Vanilla Ice Cream dream at the moment.