How Have You resolved the Creationism vs Evolution Debate?

[Geode]

You will never understand what I'm talking about unless you have been born again, but I hope that you will understand that it is the first step to finding the truth. Jesus said, "Unless a man be born again, he cannot 'see' the kingdom of God." The clear, to me, implication being that once we are born again, and yes, it is a test of that very event, we then become able to 'see' the kingdom of God.

Presumably all the apostles are in the kingdom of God that you claim to see. So here is a test for you. How tall is Peter? What color hair does John have? Does Jesus have shoulder length hair?

Friend, God is so powerful, so wise that to fill the universe from one end to the other, which we can't even find yet, is like child's play and once we realize that then we begin to ask the questions: Well, why would it take this God that can do this in an instant, millions of years? This God who creates nothing that isn't perfect, how is it that He had to allow animals and mankind to evolve?

Why would He want to rush the job?

 

[Erth]

I would like to read discussions of how other Christians have thought about this debate. Serious and theological discussions only, please.

The question has never really been Creationism versus Evolution to me, but rather it has been what to think of some findings and facts of science, that according to some fundamentalists and traditionalists are not compatible with Scripture.

Outside Evangelical Protestant circles Creationism hasn't had much impact, as far as I can see. I will leave it at that and go on to explain how I myself see things.

I believe that Scripture and reality are compatible, and that scientific findings can be reconciled with it. But I do not think that we always know in advance how to do that.

God created the world. I believe that. But I don't disregard science or view scientific findings with scepticism on the premise of a supposed conflict between faith and science. Faith is not science and science should not be faith, that is true enough. But there is no necessary opposition between faith and science just because science doesn't give us spiritual food, or just because Scripture can't replace science and give us all the answers to questions that science is concerned with.

I personally believe that the world as we know it and all the universe was created by God. Everything that exists was created by God, that's what I think. And God did not just put it together from preexistent matter, but he made the whole universe out of nothing. That's what I believe. The universe then evolved under God's grace. God didn't just leave his creation to itself to slide in any possible way, but he guided its evolution and he still does. He has the universe in his hand, so to speak. And yes, I do think that what I've said can be reconciled with Scripture.

But our understanding of Scripture evolves too, and I believe that it evolves under God's grace just like everything else. It would be to think too highly of human intellect to say that with Scripture in hand we can foresee and know everything. What we can do is to find out how to seek God and live through Him. That's not to say that everything else is irrelevant, because although there is only one Truth in Jesus Christ, there are many pathways of human understanding.

 

[Greg1234]

I believe that Scripture and reality are compatible, and that scientific findings can be reconciled with it.

ID?

The universe then evolved under God's grace.

Yes, things do change. Can a bee create a man?

 

[Keachian]

Yes, things do change. Can a bee create a man?

Your question is nonsensical creatures do not do creating, only God and those who are in the image of God

 

[Greg1234]

Your question is nonsensical creatures do not do creating, only God and those who are in the image of God

Are bees sustained by God?

 

[Keachian]

Are bees sustained by God?

All creation is sustained by God, what is your point?

 

[Greg1234]

All creation is sustained by God, what is your point?

Do Christian Darwinists say that Earth is sustained by God?

 

[Keachian]

Do Christian Darwinists say that Earth is sustained by God?

I don't know any Christian Darwinists so I can't help you out sorry

 

[Greg1234]

I don't know any Christian Darwinists so I can't help you out sorry

So if Earth and bees are sustained by God, why do you pick rain clouds to create man and not bees?

 

[Keachian]

So if Earth and bees are sustained by God, why do you pick rain clouds to create man and not bees?

I think I understood that as a sentence but can't seem to line that statement to any belief I have either within the realm of science or theology

 

[Greg1234]

I think I understood that as a sentence but can't seem to line that statement to any belief I have either within the realm of science or theology

So what's your pick? The sun?

 

[Geode]

My pastor thinks otherwise and I think he may know better. Jesus told Nicodemus what was needed to enter the kingdom of God. I think he meant the same thing as enter when he said see. To see it you must be there. To see Bangkok I must be here.

I think your pastor may know better as well Somchai. I think you just encountered a version of the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy that YEC creationists have a habit of using. In essence what is being said is that anybody claiming to be a Christian that accepts evolution or an old earth cannot be a true Christian if they do. The logic just given to you is a bit more convoluted than I have seen in the past. It was stated that a valid test of being born again was to be able to see the kingdom of God, and that when the kingdom of God is viewed it conclusively shows that the earth is young and evolution did not occur. You were told that you are not born again because you have not been able to see this yet. It is my opinion that nobody presently living can do so, and I accept your statement that you are born again to be sincere, and see no reason to doubt your claim to be a Christian. To do otherwise would be arrogant and presumptious.

 

[Keachian]

So what's your pick? The sun?

God created men stop being silly, through the masterful process of evolution God created men who have his own image.

 

[Geode]

I don't know any Christian Darwinists so I can't help you out sorry

I have never met a Darwinist, Christian or otherwise. I did know a couple of students of physics that I suspected were Newtonists.

 

[Greg1234]

I have never met a Darwinist, Christian or otherwise. I did know a couple of students of physics that I suspected were Newtonists.

If there were conflicts between Einstein's and Newtown's followers, then one party would be referred to as Newtonists.

 

[Somchai]

Presumably all the apostles are in the kingdom of God that you claim to see. So here is a test for you. How tall is Peter? What color hair does John have? Does Jesus have shoulder length hair?



Why would He want to rush the job?

Ted didn't bother to answer about this which seems odd. He has passion about description of kingdom of God but it not include this?

 

[Somchai]

I think your pastor may know better as well Somchai. I think you just encountered a version of the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy that YEC creationists have a habit of using. In essence what is being said is that anybody claiming to be a Christian that accepts evolution or an old earth cannot be a true Christian if they do. The logic just given to you is a bit more convoluted than I have seen in the past. It was stated that a valid test of being born again was to be able to see the kingdom of God, and that when the kingdom of God is viewed it conclusively shows that the earth is young and evolution did not occur. You were told that you are not born again because you have not been able to see this yet. It is my opinion that nobody presently living can do so, and I accept your statement that you are born again to be sincere, and see no reason to doubt your claim to be a Christian. To do otherwise would be arrogant and presumptious.

Events in Genesis are long ago. How can seeing kingdom of God allow seeing this? His talk did seem to start and finish with a pleas for young earth?

 

[Geode]

Events in Genesis are long ago. How can seeing kingdom of God allow seeing this? His talk did seem to start and finish with a pleas for young earth?

It appears to me that he simply wished to apply an additional approach to proving a young earth, distorting scriptural interpretation to do so.

 

[Anthony Puccetti]

There are no true Christians in the world today. Christianity became extinct before 100 Ad when it was taken over by authoritarians who tuened it back into Europeanism.

That's nonsense. Anyone that believes that Jesus is God and obeys him is a Christian. Jesus himself built a Church upon Peter,as it says in the gospel of Matthew. Jesus wanted his followers to be one flock,and to receive his body and blood in the Eucharist. This requires a priesthood. The apostles,including Paul,were priests,and Peter (Kephas) was the head of the priesthood. And they anointed others to take their place and preach the gospel and minister to the people.

There won't be any proper Christians until during the end times and have gone through a tribilation which is caused by the arrival of proper Christianity, You may think you're a Christian but we know better. Everyone today who claims to be a Christian is a victim of (as previously mentioned) of a 1800 year old European interpretation. We in our team have not gone through a tribulation as yet to decide if we want to be Christian or not. Some of us may have. That's what causes the end times---proper Christianity arrives. Evolution has no place in Christianity, as it is a study of material origin. Christianity doesn't deal with material construction. While a Christian may study these things the material knowledge remains outside the bounds of Christianity and unattached.

Christian doctrine does deal with the material world. The doctrine of creation is part of Christianity. All things were created by God the Father and through the Word of God,who is Christ.

One is not unrighteous in undertaking such studies. But, a Cristian has no place in arguing the point as evolution is of it's basis and Christianity of it's. If you recheck the teachings of the Apostles and JC you will find they teach things from the "beginning"-which that beginning is Creatuion from which righteous man is founded, such as -invisible things of Creation etc----that refers to creation as invisible, and the only thing invisible are spiritual things, thus rendering Creation as a non-material construction. You're not going to be a Christian until you put aside the superficila mentality of the which the man made world operates and depends on. "Human" is a spiritual enity not a physical body. There's no such thing as a human body. Whether you realize it or not you are a body worshiper, we know.from the word one speaks---by their fruits you will know then---he said.

There is such a thing as the human body. That is obvious from experience. Humans are both spiritual and physical beings. The soul and body are created at once together. The body is the physical manifestation of the spiritual soul. It is through the suffering and death of Jesus' body that those who believe in him are redeemed.

 

[Anthony Puccetti]

God created men stop being silly, through the masterful process of evolution God created men who have his own image.

God creates living things individually by immediate acts of creation,not gradual processes. Living things are conceived or reproduced immediately and as individuals. It doesn't make sense to say that humans were created through the process of evolution when natural selection and genetic mutation do not produce individual creatures. Natural selection is a process of elimination,not a creative process,and genetic mutations do not accumulate to the extent of causing a species to evolve beyond itself,because very few traits are subject to mutations.