How Far is Too Far?

[bs_212]

I'm sure this is a question that gets asked a lot on this forum, so please forgive me for making it my very first post. I was a member here a while ago, and I've come back seeking advice from other people of various faith because, frankly, I'm at a loss. Hopefully this isn't breaking a forum rule because I see you're not supposed to talk about sex in here, but I don't want to have a debate about the topic, just seeking advice...If I've broken a rule, please let me know.

Anyways, my situation: I met my fiance two years ago on a website for a music act we both like. A year later, we were dating, a year after that, we are engaged. Now, we still are a country away from each other, he lives in MD and I go to school in TX. Last summer, we let things go a little further then we likely should have, but we still haven't had sex. Lately, I began to feel that what we were doing was a sin, and he agreed, so we have put an end to that, and I, at least, have asked for forgiveness.

Here's the problem, we really don't know what to do, we both believe that when the Lord said that even lust is a form of adultery, he meant that no matter what we do, even if we live righteous lives, we are not free of sin. To avoid lust would be an act of futility, especially when we want to be together, but have to wait the year it takes in this day and age to get married. Both of us also believe that masturbation is not a sin, that's just simply our belief. What we're trying to figure out is, if we're trying to remain pure for our wedding night, is it wrong to combat lust with cyber/phone sex.

To put it simply: If we can't avoid lust, we can't avoid it. But if we can stop from enabling it, should we do so at the cause of harming our romantic relationship? When we're together it's not a problem because we can kiss and other simple touching that is generally considered to be ok. But when we're apart, which we are most of the time, things become far more complicated. So, advice, is it wrong to be involved in one another's self-application of feelings if we would be doing it anyways and don't find it to be a sin?

 

[Windmill]

If you want to do the right Christian thing, you completely avoid lust to the best extent possible without completely destroying your relationship. Just, try your best. Phone sex is not a good idea, think about it, it has the word "sex" in it. How does doing a sexual activity combat lust? You will probably be lusting 24/7, and well that might be an exaguration ( ) but you get my point, you're going to be lusting a lot, and it sucks, but as a Christian, your moral duty is to fight it, no matter how hard it is. I don't think you should stop all physical affection or anything at all, but if you're lusting throughout it, fight the thoughts in your head. Don't embrace them.

When you're apart, don't have phone sex. I know you can't qwell your physical affection desire with nice simple things like kissing and hugging, but phone sex isn't the answer if you want to show affection, talk about kissing/hugging. E.g. type *cuddles* into IM or something rather than *insert sexual activity here* or anything, other than having phone sex.

Boundries are difficult, but a good start is if what you're doing has the word "sex" in it, its crossed the line.

 

[texasfrogs10]

Thank you very much for the response (This is bs_212, found my old user info, so I switched back to it ). Definitely helps put things into one perspective at least. I'm keeping my heart open to the advice that I've asked the Lord to send me, so, again, really appreciate.

 

[DCHSKNIGHT]

Hey sister!

From a man's point of view...

Women are amazing. They are one of the greatest works of art every created by our master artist. What is to far?

the first and easy answer is, God's word says sex is for marriage. No, if, ands, or buts, about it. In my opinion there is good reason for this, Not just because of sin or Children, but because Sex is binding, it is one of other forms of perfect love, so if your not ready to be bound to someone, then don't have sex.

The more complicated answer is... to be quite frank your body does not belong to you. It is not yours. It has co-ownership, it belongs to Christ, because he bought with his blood, and it belongs to your future husband, whom ever he is. I would warn against anything that you do with your body, that those two people would object against.

Kissing, hugging, holding, cuddling, what ever, there are things that other people can handle because of our maturity levels and such, but be careful. The devil walks around seeking whom ever he can devour. He will kill you in any way possible. He will kill you with love, with sex, with drugs what ever he can use to destroy you.

Now as a side note, think about what you are doing to your man... With a hint of sexuality you drive us men wild. It is how we are built. Paul states, that if you lead anyone into sin, you are sinning, If you are causing your man to lust, even after you, Your sinning and you need to stop. Throw on your big girl panties and walk away.

A side note, That comment, "If we cant avoid lust, we cant avoid it.." that is a load, a cop-out, and a weak excuse to sin. Through Christ ALL things are possible. Through Christ it is possible to never lust again. remember that next time, you think it cant be avoided.

Also please dont take my harshness or frankness as me not being loving. I love you, you are my sister in Christ. What kind of a family would we be if we dont warn others, love them enough, to not care if we offend and tell the truth. If dont like me, that is not my problem. WE are the representives of Christ, we need to love each other as such.

So be careful my sister!

 

[alphacheese]

The answer to "how far can I go?" has three parts
1. You can't have sexual intercourse
2. You can't do anything resembling sexual intercourse
3. You can't do anything that gets your motor running for sexual intercourse

In the words of J. Budziszewski from How to Stay Christian in College

Eric and Leslie Ludy say in their book Meet Mr. Smith that asking the question "how far is too far?" isn't a Christian question but one of the world. They suggest asking a different question "Lord, how far can I possibly go to to please and honor You in this area of my life?"

Instead of trying to figure out how much you can get away with think of how far you can go to honor God with your actions.

 

[Bootstrap]

Here's the problem, we really don't know what to do, we both believe that when the Lord said that even lust is a form of adultery, he meant that no matter what we do, even if we live righteous lives, we are not free of sin. To avoid lust would be an act of futility, especially when we want to be together, but have to wait the year it takes in this day and age to get married. Both of us also believe that masturbation is not a sin, that's just simply our belief. What we're trying to figure out is, if we're trying to remain pure for our wedding night, is it wrong to combat lust with cyber/phone sex.

The English word "lust" is a bit misleading to modern English speakers.

The Greek word used in Matthew 5 can refer to any strong desire, including positive ones like the desire Jesus had to share the passover meal with his disciples. And it's also the word used for "covet" in the Septuagint, "do not covet your neighbor's wife". Jesus says that coveting your neighbor's wife is already committing adultery with her in your heart. So I think daydreaming about having sex with someone else's wife, looking at her and stripping her in your imagination, etc., is the kind of thing that Jesus means here.

Having an eager physical desire for your boyfriend or girlfriend is not sin - after all, would you marry someone you do not desire? On the other hand, if you spend lots of time vividly imagining having sex, three guesses where you'll wind up eventually. Having sexual feelings is normal - and good. God made us this way. But if you let your thoughts head too far, or let your physical activity head too far, it can be very difficult to keep the rest of you from heading in exactly the same direction.

Where that border is depends on a lot of things, including how the two of you respond to things. But anything that tends to lead you past the point that you feel in control of your actions is too far. Anything that leads you to where you are convicted in your heart before God is too far. And I agree with Windmill - anything called "sex" is too far.

I think masturbation can be a helpful release valve sometimes - but ... not in the same room, IMHO.

 

[Gary223]

I think masturbation can be a helpful release valve sometimes - but ... not in the same room, IMHO.

My view on this: we are not meant to be masturbating - how can you have a clean mind while masturbating? It's not possible. We are called to live a life of purity, and this means having a clean mind.

Gareth.

 

[The Nihilist]

My view on this: we are not meant to be masturbating - how can you have a clean mind while masturbating? It's not possible. We are called to live a life of purity, and this means having a clean mind.

Gareth.

Yeah, that'd be awesome until people became extinct. Well, christians anyway.

 

[Gary223]

Nihilist,

Not completely sure what you mean here?

Sorry
G.

 

[Johnnz]

Having an eager physical desire for your boyfriend or girlfriend is not sin - after all, would you marry someone you do not desire? On the other hand, if you spend lots of time vividly imagining having sex, three guesses where you'll wind up eventually. Having sexual feelings is normal - and good. God made us this way. But if you let your thoughts head too far, or let your physical activity head too far, it can be very difficult to keep the rest of you from heading in exactly the same direction.

I think masturbation can be a helpful release valve sometimes - but ... not in the same room, IMHO.

I want to add to this post. There is a terrible tendency to call all arousal "Lust". There is a perfectly normal, God designed sexuality, part of which is that a close relationship with the opposite sex can activate us sexually, and functions as a stimulus for considering marriage. In no way is that level of arousal unholy lust in itself. Nor is its constancy and desire for full expression. It's only when we chose to ignore a moral boundary that sin becomes an issue. I would be more worried about a couple with no sexual desires than those having to contain theirs.

I have no issue with masturbation. I did a study on its origins, and from a wrong Greek concept has come some of the most absurd reasons against it one could imagine. With such a ridiculous pedigree I can see why people still are confused over this issue. It is not forbidden in Scripture and any other reasons against it are often bizarre. However, it should not be seen simplistically as it can lead to other significant issues. But dealt with responsibly as a release mechanism it can have a place for a single person.

John
NZ

 

[The Nihilist]

Nihilist,

Not completely sure what you mean here?

Sorry
G.

I mean that if christians have a clean mind, then there is absolutely no point in having a courting couples section. It is our sexuality that drives us to pair off in couples. (Ok, except for anyone who's codependent; they're driven by pschological issues.)
Even in the context of marriage, it is this same "dirty" drive that causes us to reproduce. If the position you've put forth is to be taken seriously, then you might as well lop of your junk, to prevent being thrown bodily into gehenna. (Origen, the early church leader, actually did this.)
It is because of the impracticality of having a "clean" mind that your own Paul recommends getting married. Is Paul advocating that people get married more or less as soon as people can start having dirty thoughts, or is he just tacitly acknowledging that you're going to entertain said thoughts until you're in a position to wed? I can't say, but because no one is going to let you get married at 12, you're just going to have to deal with it.
Now, as for the ludicrous position that a man should marry the first woman who lets him touch her, we can deal with that another time (when I am at least marginally less hung over.)

 

[Gary223]

I know what you're saying Nihilist, but if we dwell on thoughts outside our marriage on fantasies and other dirty stuff. Sure, when one is married, it's fine, but outside of marriage is completely different.

Philippians 4:8: "Fix your thoughts on what is true honourable and right. Think about things that are pure, lovely and admirable. Think about things that are excellent and praiseworthy."

In the marriage context, honourable and right would fit in, as would pure, lovely and admirable, excellent and praiseworthy. Why? Because you're doing what God wants! But outside the context of marriage, I don't think that thinking sexually and 'dirtily' falls into this scripture. When you're married, I believe that you should only think sexually of your partner.

I know what you're saying about that it helps us choose our partner:

if christians have a clean mind, then there is absolutely no point in having a courting couples section. It is our sexuality that drives us to pair off in couples.

Sure, I believe it too that it is our sexuality that drives us to pair off in couples, but is it a clean minded sexuality? Don't get confused with having a clear minded sexuality. God wants us to be attracted to other human beings, but is it with the right motive and attracted the right way? Why not be attracted to someone because you see them as a beautiful child of God?

Is Paul advocating that people get married more or less as soon as people can start having dirty thoughts, or is he just tacitly acknowledging that you're going to entertain said thoughts until you're in a position to wed?

Well, the reason why he wanted them to get married is because they had little self control and couldn't stop our thoughts entertaining us. Thoughts are hard to control, most men have a problem with it.

Sorry about the lengthy reply, hope it makes sense.

G.

 

[TreeHouse]

The English word "lust" is a bit misleading to modern English speakers.

The Greek word used in Matthew 5 can refer to any strong desire, including positive ones like the desire Jesus had to share the passover meal with his disciples. And it's also the word used for "covet" in the Septuagint, "do not covet your neighbor's wife". Jesus says that coveting your neighbor's wife is already committing adultery with her in your heart. So I think daydreaming about having sex with someone else's wife, looking at her and stripping her in your imagination, etc., is the kind of thing that Jesus means here.

Having an eager physical desire for your boyfriend or girlfriend is not sin - after all, would you marry someone you do not desire? On the other hand, if you spend lots of time vividly imagining having sex, three guesses where you'll wind up eventually. Having sexual feelings is normal - and good. God made us this way. But if you let your thoughts head too far, or let your physical activity head too far, it can be very difficult to keep the rest of you from heading in exactly the same direction.

Where that border is depends on a lot of things, including how the two of you respond to things. But anything that tends to lead you past the point that you feel in control of your actions is too far. Anything that leads you to where you are convicted in your heart before God is too far. And I agree with Windmill - anything called "sex" is too far.

I think masturbation can be a helpful release valve sometimes - but ... not in the same room, IMHO.

I like this answer. It explains things well enough without being overly restrictive and keeping us in a sort of dark ages mentality. It also allows us to maintain some self discipline as well instead of hiding from the issue.

 

[Fatally.Yours]

Too far is whatever you're not comfortable with. If it feels right, just do it.

 

[iambren]

Mutual masturbation long distance, that's pretty creative! You're not actually doing the "deed", keep your virginity, you can't get pregnant, sexual thoughts can NOT be sin for it takes at least one party to be married for adultery. It does produce a sensual connection and warmth but I would become very frustrated in a short time---I'd want the real deal.

Morally it's kinda squishy but personally I feel that if you are operating on that level of intimacy why don't you just marry or elope and get it over with?

 

[The Nihilist]

Oh! Let's not forget about technical virgins! That's a fantastic and totally not hilarious way to maintain purity.

 

[dayhiker]

As for purity, to me that's staying away from idols.

to the OP. I like what Jesus said .. do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
And the lust question was answered really well with the post showing that Jesus was walking about lusting after an other man's wife, ie to covet. When Paul uses this Greek word he is talking about the same commandment .. Thou shall not covet thy neighbor's wife.

 

[GrumpGrump]

Hey sister!

From a man's point of view...

The more complicated answer is... to be quite frank your body does not belong to you. It is not yours. It has co-ownership, it belongs to Christ, because he bought with his blood, and it belongs to your future husband, whom ever he is. I would warn against anything that you do with your body, that those two people would object against.

I have nothing pithy or relevant to say, except: BARF. OP, make conscientious decisions with your body that are in line with your beliefs, but don't ever listen to someone who tells you that your body belongs to someone else.

Now as a side note, think about what you are doing to your man... With a hint of sexuality you drive us men wild. It is how we are built. Paul states, that if you lead anyone into sin, you are sinning, If you are causing your man to lust, even after you, Your sinning and you need to stop. Throw on your big girl panties and walk away.

Oh, and, DOUBLE BARF. (Really, is mention of the OP's big girl panties necessary? Also, ew, blaming men's lust on women's sexuality. Talk about a slippery slope.)

Also please dont take my harshness or frankness as me not being loving. I love you, you are my sister in Christ. What kind of a family would we be if we dont warn others, love them enough, to not care if we offend and tell the truth. If dont like me, that is not my problem. WE are the representives of Christ, we need to love each other as such.

What a patronizing tone. Yuck.

 

[iambren]

You should do something about that intestinal flu you got there, or are you just being grumpy?

 

[dayknee]

Gahhh....there are so many different views here =P

If the OP is Christian and is having guilt over her feelings of lust and wanting to have sex..I just don't know what to say..As a Christian one should always refer back to the bible.
Sex before marriage is wrong. Period.
Now lusting is a natural part of human life. Heck, I lust. I try so hard not to but I fall short. I don't beat myself up over it. I know Im a sinner. I know I am forgiven. I am also not abusing Grace so don't anyone go there with me..

I thank God for certain feelings. Feelings that tell me I am fearfully and wonderfully made. I also try to avoid putting myself in situations that would cause my desire for me to become so lustful that bad things happen. You know what I mean?

If you do not want to have sex before marriage it is totally up to you to prevent it along with your fiance. And by preventing it you make that choice that you are just not going to do it...the problem is...you want to have phone sex and well..thats just dumb if you are trying to remain lust free and not put yourselves into a bad position.

Make the choice to do what you want and stick with it.
Also remember what Gods word says about pre-marital sex, sexual immorality.
You should wait until you are married to let loose (no pun intended).
Speaking from a woman who has a world of regret having sex before marriage and at 15..You might not be able to live with yourself if you do and seeing as you are having struggles right now with lust..it's probably better you dont .