How do we know which commandments have expiration dates?

[alexiscurious]

There are some pretty intriguing commandments in the Bible. In total, there are a whopping 613. These commandments range from not eating worms found in fruit to burning cities that have engaged in idolatry worship. I'm still trying to understand how Christians decide which commandments can be tossed out of the window and which are still mandatory to follow.

For example, let's take these two:

1 Corinthians 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

Leviticus 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Can someone please explain to me the process Christians use to determine that the first commandment is no longer necessary but the second one still is? Thanks.

 

[dysert]

There are some pretty intriguing commandments in the Bible. In total, there are a whopping 613. These commandments range from not eating worms found in fruit to burning cities that have engaged in idolatry worship. I'm still trying to understand how Christians decide which commandments can be tossed out of the window and which are still mandatory to follow.

For example, let's take these two:

1 Corinthians 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

Leviticus 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Can someone please explain to me the process Christians use to determine that the first commandment is no longer necessary but the second one still is? Thanks.

You pose a very good question, and one that I often consider myself. Before getting around to it, let me just say that there are many believers today who still adhere to the first commandment in your pair of examples. (I realize you're just giving examples.) Do you happen to have a list of all 613? We could go through them one-by-one and try to figure out whether each applies to today.

Absent that, there are a few criteria that help folks figure out if a given commandment is one that has expired. (And I may not have thought of them all.)

OT vs. NT: If it's in the NT, it's probably still valid. That's not to say that if it's only in the Old that it's invalid (e.g., the Ten Commandments), but if it's in the New then there's a good chance God still expects Christians to adhere to it under most conditions. One condition where a NT commandment *may* not be in play is if it's strictly a cultural thing. (Many folks put 1 Cor. 14:34 in that category.) An example might be not to eat meat sacrificed to idols (1 Cor. 8). *Motive* is a big thing in the NT. And not taking *license* to do things if what you do could be misconstrued or harmful to another's faith.

OT System: If it's only in the OT, we should determine if it's part of the old "system" of Judaism, sacrifices, etc. An example might be the tithe. It's not a NT concept, and it seems (to me) to be part of the Judaic system with the festivals, offerings, etc. That system has been concluded, so I don't think the tithe is a valid commandment any more.

Is it part of the created order: An example here might be 1 Tim. 2:12-13 (as well as Lev. 18:22). If something would violate the created order, then it's probably a commandment that should still be heeded. It's not part of the old system of the Law but has instead been in play since creation.

Personal vs. organizational: Is it a commandment that applied to an organization or to a person? For example, the nation of Israel was often commanded to attack other peoples in their attempted conquest of Canaan. It does not follow that we can be vigilantes ourselves.

Progressive revelation: There's little question that God has revealed Himself in stages throughout time. Was a commandment given that helped the Israelites learn about Him, or was it meant for all time? An example here might be where God commanded that you should not wear clothes that have mixed fabric (don't recall the verses off-hand, but I think they're in Leviticus somewhere). Imo, God was teaching the Israelites that they were a chosen people and God wanted them set apart from the other nations. The metaphor of mixed fabrics was then given to help illustrate the point.

There are probably still other factors that go into play that have a bearing on what God would have Christians do or not do these days, but I post these to get us started. I think the biggest thing these days is to behave in a God-honoring way. In a way that reflects who God is (since Christians are supposed to be conforming themselves to His image). If a believer has the proper motives (and not selfish ones), is wanting to honor God, is wanting to be more like Him, is not causing another person to stumble, etc., then I think God would be pleased with that behavior.

 

[Sketcher]

There are some pretty intriguing commandments in the Bible. In total, there are a whopping 613. These commandments range from not eating worms found in fruit to burning cities that have engaged in idolatry worship. I'm still trying to understand how Christians decide which commandments can be tossed out of the window and which are still mandatory to follow.

For example, let's take these two:

1 Corinthians 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

Leviticus 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Can someone please explain to me the process Christians use to determine that the first commandment is no longer necessary but the second one still is? Thanks.

Leviticus 18 is in the category of laws that refers to "sexual immorality," and this same category was reaffirmed as unlawful for Jew and Gentile to practice in Acts 15. Pretty hard to justify letting that one go.

1 Corinthians 14:34 refers to teaching, or speaking in an authoritative way, such as James did in Acts 15 to instruct the church. It is not a ban on all speaking, which is understood when looking at the context of 1 Corinthians 14 and the role of women in the church as a whole in the New Testament.

 

[ebia]

There are some pretty intriguing commandments in the Bible. In total, there are a whopping 613. These commandments range from not eating worms found in fruit to burning cities that have engaged in idolatry worship. I'm still trying to understand how Christians decide which commandments can be tossed out of the window and which are still mandatory to follow.

For example, let's take these two:

1 Corinthians 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

Leviticus 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Can someone please explain to me the process Christians use to determine that the first commandment is no longer necessary but the second one still is? Thanks.

It helps not to think of the bible as a set of commands to follow in the first place. The bible tells an ongoing story. Such commands as are mentioned exist in that story. We are living another part of the story. A better question to ask than "has this command expired" is "how does the part of the story I am reading properly influence the part of the story I am living".

 

[dcalling]

Most of the 613 commandments are given to Israelis, while we still have to follow the common laws (i.e. not kill, not steal), the ceremonial laws we are not required to follow (i.e. various blood sacrifices).

In NT, Jesus told us all laws hung on 2 things only, Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself. As long as things you have done are based on this two, you are good, as this 2 laws are all the laws hung on.

 

[Kiritsugu Emiyah]

There are some pretty intriguing commandments in the Bible. In total, there are a whopping 613. These commandments range from not eating worms found in fruit to burning cities that have engaged in idolatry worship. I'm still trying to understand how Christians decide which commandments can be tossed out of the window and which are still mandatory to follow.

For example, let's take these two:

1 Corinthians 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

Leviticus 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Can someone please explain to me the process Christians use to determine that the first commandment is no longer necessary but the second one still is? Thanks.

Christians normally just use their cultural bias and current moral threshold to pick and choose and make the best guess they can. Most people revile gay people, especially gay men so that one can stay, sexism toward females has pretty much been proven ethically inept so that ones dismissed as traditional and cultural and not binding on us.

We have lots of and lots of females who want to be able to speak their minds, we have a lot less gay people and even less gay people who want to be Christians so that one's here to stay for the time being.

You'll notice that while while they still accept that the rule against homosexuality was right and should stay, the killing part has to go, because our current moral threshold won't allow us to kill people or feel like killing them is ok. But the rule was to kill them... people just make the best guesses that they can.

 

[alexiscurious]

So ultimately it is Christians who get to pick and choose what is right and necessary to follow, not God?

 

[Sketcher]

So ultimately it is Christians who get to pick and choose what is right and necessary to follow, not God?

No.

 

[alexiscurious]

No.

What I've seen so far in this thread is human attempts and methods to determine what is right and relevant and what is wrong and unnecessary. I don't see God involved anywhere in this process?

 

[alexiscurious]

You pose a very good question, and one that I often consider myself. Before getting around to it, let me just say that there are many believers today who still adhere to the first commandment in your pair of examples. (I realize you're just giving examples.) Do you happen to have a list of all 613? We could go through them one-by-one and try to figure out whether each applies to today.

Absent that, there are a few criteria that help folks figure out if a given commandment is one that has expired. (And I may not have thought of them all.)

I read through all your criteria and couldn't help but notice that these are all human attempts and man-made methods to try to figure out and determine what what is right and relevant and what is wrong and unnecessary. I don't see God involved anywhere in this process?

So ultimately it is Christians who get to pick and choose what is right and necessary to follow, not God?

 

[Devorim]

I used to be a ravenous student of the Bible, but as my strength has dissipated with age, I have regressed horribly. I look forward to retiring soon, so I can get back to study.

For the above reason, I feel very hesitant to answer much here. Perhaps these few things will satisfy my desire to dive into this!

First, look up the 613 on the Internet. I am fairly sure you will find several sites that will name them.

Second, as far as laws go, please remember that there are biblical laws, the oral laws (some of which were eventually written down but writing them was against tradition), and laws within certain areas -- local laws at that time.

As far as what I believe of these laws, I, as an American living in the U.S.A, am only obligated to those biblical laws that can be practiced in America, and not to either the oral or local laws mentioned (but not commanded) in the Bible.

I can practice all of the 10 commandments here as well as most of the other 603.

 

[Sketcher]

What I've seen so far in this thread is human attempts and methods to determine what is right and relevant and what is wrong and unnecessary. I don't see God involved anywhere in this process?

If it were up to humans, it would basically be making it up as we go along. Which makes no sense since Christians insist on following commands that are difficult, inconvenient, and personally intrusive. If we were making up Christianity as we went along, we would have a much more convenient (and morally lax) faith. Some of the teachings that are harder to make sense of would also probably go away. Yet, they're there and practiced after 2,000 years. If we're making it up as we're going along, why are these commands still in Scripture? Why don't we do what some other faiths do and edit our teachings much more aggressively?

 

[dysert]

I read through all your criteria and couldn't help but notice that these are all human attempts and man-made methods to try to figure out and determine what what is right and relevant and what is wrong and unnecessary. I don't see God involved anywhere in this process?

So ultimately it is Christians who get to pick and choose what is right and necessary to follow, not God?

Afaic, it is a fairly mechanical process. That's not to say that God isn't involved, though. As with anything spiritual, the process would include a lot of prayer to ask for God's direction. And it is a Christian exercise. For one thing, I assume that it's mostly Christians who even care what God wants. And for another thing, only someone indwelt by the Holy Spirit is capable of discerning spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:9 ff).

 

[Hawkins]

There are some pretty intriguing commandments in the Bible. In total, there are a whopping 613. These commandments range from not eating worms found in fruit to burning cities that have engaged in idolatry worship. I'm still trying to understand how Christians decide which commandments can be tossed out of the window and which are still mandatory to follow.

For example, let's take these two:

1 Corinthians 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

Leviticus 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Can someone please explain to me the process Christians use to determine that the first commandment is no longer necessary but the second one still is? Thanks.

It is a subject even Christians may find it confusing. However God doesn't demand Christians to understand the OT completely for them to be saved. Christians only need to understand the salvation message in NT to be saved through Christ.

That said, my speculation is that each Covenant (old or new) is self contained and covering a scope of humans. The OT covenant we generally refer to is a covenant for the Jews (and converters accepted by God) only. Only Christian Jews may continue to choose to keep them selectively.

On the other hand, I also believe that most of the 10 commandments are also present in the New Covenant (as mentioned by Jesus Christ Himself). In a nutshell, cored commandments can be present in both old and new covenants acting as a foundation of Law for us to obey. Although in NT we no longer have Law, we still need to obey those cored commandments as Christ's teachings and His commands.

 

[Devorim]

...If we're making it up as we're going along, why are these commands still in Scripture? Why don't we do what some other faiths do and edit our teachings much more aggressively?

From what I have observed, many have discarded the majority of the teachings of the Bible by ignoring the first 2/3 of the Bible, declaring it irrelevant, except for tithing and beating children. In order to accommodate this, they have made what they call "New Testaments." It is curious to me that some still carry whole Bibles but don't use the first 2/3.

 

[Devorim]

....On the other hand, I also believe that most of the 10 commandments are also present in the New Covenant (as mentioned by Jesus Christ Himself). In a nutshell, cored commandments can be present in both old and new covenants acting as a foundation of Law for us to obey. Although in NT we no longer have Law, we still need to obey those cored commandments as Christ's teachings and His commands.

All 10 are reiterated in the last 1/3. Seriously, Hawkins, I have not read any place where His mind was changed about the 10.

 

[Sketcher]

From what I have observed, many have discarded the majority of the teachings of the Bible by ignoring the first 2/3 of the Bible, declaring it irrelevant, except for tithing and beating children. In order to accommodate this, they have made what they call "New Testaments." It is curious to me that some still carry whole Bibles but don't use the first 2/3.

That's way, way, way off.

Let's start with what the Jews, who say that as much of the Law as possible needs to be obeyed, say first. They say that the Law is for the Jews, not for the Gentiles. They say it contains some universal morals and principles that Gentiles are also supposed to follow, but they do not believe that Gentiles need to follow the whole thing. Among these are commands against blasphemy, idolatry, murder, theft, sexual immorality. Learned, religious Jews will tell you that this goes back all the way to Moses.

Fast-forward to the New Testament. Christianity starts out as a movement within Judaism, and in Acts 10 God tells Peter that the Gentiles are not an unclean people, and sends him to preach to them. The Gentiles receive the Holy Spirit as well. There is a controversy as to whether the Gentiles who heard the Gospel and received the Holy Spirit should be obligated to follow the entire Law. In Acts 15, the Spirit leads the assembly to the conclusion that they are not so obligated.

Now, in spite of our not being commanded to follow the Law (which is repeated several times in the New Testament), there are still some useful takeaways from the Old Testament, which is why we still read it today. But it's not a matter of us weeding out what we find inconvenient. If it were, the New Testament teachings on needing to forgive one another, help the poor, not to take revenge, submit to the government whenever possible, and love our enemies wouldn't be in there anymore. Nor would the commands against greed and sexual immorality. If people want a convenient faith, then they have plenty of options besides Christianity to have their ears tickled.

 

[Hawkins]

All 10 are reiterated in the last 1/3. Seriously, Hawkins, I have not read any place where His mind was changed about the 10.

How many saved Christians ever observed (successfully) the Sabbath in the past 2000 years? The answer is few. Have they all broken God's commandment for them to obey?

Or rather God foresaw this and Sabbath was excluded from the New Covenant.

Here, Sabbath is not omitted for no reason.

Mark 10:19 (NIV)
You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’


Other 9 commandments are the cored commandments reasonably present in both the Old and New covenants.

 

[dcalling]

So ultimately it is Christians who get to pick and choose what is right and necessary to follow, not God?

Why? God said not to murder, we follow. God said not to steal, we follow. God said not to build images, we follow. God said love your neighbor as yourself, well, we try .....

The laws that are clearly given to Jews (i.e. the celebrations to remember that God lead them out of Egypt), we don't need to follow (we can follow if we want to as God said, but is not enforced as God said).

 

[WoundedDeep]

There are some pretty intriguing commandments in the Bible. In total, there are a whopping 613. These commandments range from not eating worms found in fruit to burning cities that have engaged in idolatry worship. I'm still trying to understand how Christians decide which commandments can be tossed out of the window and which are still mandatory to follow.

For example, let's take these two:

1 Corinthians 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

Leviticus 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Can someone please explain to me the process Christians use to determine that the first commandment is no longer necessary but the second one still is? Thanks.

Mosaic Law contains prophecies about the Messiah. Jesus Himself said He came to fulfil the Law, not abolish it. Therefore, those parts of the Law fulfilled by Jesus is already done away with. This means sacrificing of lambs etc, which is part of the Mosaic Law that people do in remission of their sins. Jesus is now the Lamb who was already sacrificed on the Cross.

Mosaic Law also has a spiritual/moral law. That is the part binding on every Christian. Some of these spiritual law are pretty straightforward, some are more allegory in nature. The one you quoted about Leviticus 18:22 is a straightforward one, it talks about not engaging in homosexuality (Man should not lie with man as with a woman).