How do we debate with a right heart?

[PastorJoey]

Here is a verse I think hits the nail on the head.
1 Timothy 6:3-5 KJV

(3) If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

(4) He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

(5) Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth,

1Ti 6:4

(AMP) He is puffed up with pride and stupefied with conceit, [although he is] woefully ignorant. He has a morbid fondness for controversy and disputes and strife about words, which result in (produce) envy and jealousy, quarrels and dissension, abuse and insults and slander, and base suspicions,

(BBE) He has an over-high opinion of himself; being without knowledge, having only an unhealthy love of questionings and wars of words, from which come envy, fighting, cruel words, evil thoughts,

(MSG) tag them for what they are: ignorant windbags who infect the air with germs of envy, controversy, bad-mouthing, suspicious rumors.

(WNT) he is puffed up with pride and has no true knowledge, but is crazy over discussions and controversies about words which give rise to envy, quarrelling, revilings, ill-natured suspicions,
1 Timothy 6:5 GNB

(5) and constant arguments from people whose minds do not function and who no longer have the truth. They think that religion is a way to become rich.

Wow! Did they have internet in bible days?
PJ

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

I wish Paul were here to debate on the subjects of faith and spirit.
I doubt he would be as kind as we are when it comes to defending the gospel and the goodness of God. He was a real stickler when it came to ultimate sacrifice Jesus make and the total redemption we have in Christ.

Here is a verse I think hits the nail on the head.
1 Timothy 6:3-5 KJV

(3) If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

(4) He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

(5) Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth,

1Ti 6:4

(AMP) He is puffed up with pride and stupefied with conceit, [although he is] woefully ignorant. He has a morbid fondness for controversy and disputes and strife about words, which result in (produce) envy and jealousy, quarrels and dissension, abuse and insults and slander, and base suspicions,

(BBE) He has an over-high opinion of himself; being without knowledge, having only an unhealthy love of questionings and wars of words, from which come envy, fighting, cruel words, evil thoughts,

(MSG) tag them for what they are: ignorant windbags who infect the air with germs of envy, controversy, bad-mouthing, suspicious rumors.

(WNT) he is puffed up with pride and has no true knowledge, but is crazy over discussions and controversies about words which give rise to envy, quarrelling, revilings, ill-natured suspicions,
1 Timothy 6:5 GNB

(5) and constant arguments from people whose minds do not function and who no longer have the truth. They think that religion is a way to become rich.

Wow! Did they have internet in bible days?
PJ

 

[Christina M]

I wish Paul were here to debate on the subjects of faith and spirit.
I doubt he would be as kind as we are when it comes to defending the gospel and the goodness of God. He was a real stickler when it came to ultimate sacrifice Jesus make and the total redemption we have in Christ.

Amen. So very true. He (& Jesus) called a spade a spade. There was none of the politically correct tolerance we see so rampant today.

 

[Prosperity]

This is a simple question which has a simple answer.

Ephesians 4:31-33 KJV
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Speak to one another in love and in truth.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

So we clearly see that Jesus gave a commandment to love.

The word Commandment is a noun which is an authoritative indication to be obeyed: synonymous with behest, bidding, charge, command, dictate, direction, directive, injunction, instruction (often used in plural), mandate, order.

Jesus gave a new commandment which I've seen very few of my brothers and sisters follow because they prefer to satiate their emotional and intellectual attitudes.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

I've seen Christians attack each other far more than I've seen the world attack Christians. It should not be this way. The world already hates Christians, because the world hated Jesus first. Christians should quit eating their own.

The biggest problem I see that Christians have in obeying God is that they refuse to make the sacrifice that obedience requires. Jesus said that if we love him, we will keep His commandments, and his chief commandment is to love one another as He loved us.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

How much did Jesus love the Father?

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

How much did Jesus love us? Enough to spread His arms wide and die for us!

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

There was no greater love than Jesus loved us with and Jesus defined this in this way...

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

How did Jesus say we were to love one another?

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

How much did Jesus say that He loved us?

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jesus didn't ask us to love each other, He commanded it.

Was Jesus being legalistic?

If He wasn't being legalistic, then why don't we more often obey this command. As a matter of fact Jesus not only commanded Christians to love each other, be He instructed us to love our enemies.

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Matthew 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

The only people I saw Jesus putting the hammer down on, in the Bible, was the religious people who were using religion to enslave, rob and murder people. Further, outside of the people identified in the previous sentence, I see no evidence that Jesus ever got hostile or nasty with anyone. Also, Paul was a master of language who was straight forward in his speech, as was Jesus, but again I see no where where Paul's speech was filled with hatred or violence towards another person.

Most Christians get in heated arguments because they don't want to crucify the old man. People choose to indulge their emotions and their intellect rather than listen to what the spirit is saying.

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

People will either serve their emotions and intellect or they will obey God. Most people seem to try for a middle road between satiating their emotions and obeying God when it comes to loving people. These are double minded people. If your not operating in love, then you are operating hatred. The mathematical equivalence of trying to simultaneously walk in love and hate result in walking in Hate all the time. Love(+) + Hate(-) = Hat(-) The result is...

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Following our emotions, rather than obeying God, is a function of our failure to crucify the old man and the iniquity that is seeded in the old man. The old man always wants us to surrender our will to our emotions. God wants us to....

Mark 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

If you find yourself getting angry with people, then go check you relationship with God.

What is the requirement of love?

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

 

[KingZzub]

As I often tell people, if I saw my son drinking bleach, the most loving thing to do is not to gently say "My darling son, I do believe you are mistaken about the contents of the bottle which you are currently holding to your mouth. Could I pray for you dear fellow and have a discussion about our differing opinions over the bottle?

Not at all...

And there are people drinking spiritual poison.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

 

[Prosperity]

As I often tell people, if I saw my son drinking bleach, the most loving thing to do is not to gently say "My darling son, I do believe you are mistaken about the contents of the bottle which you are currently holding to your mouth. Could I pray for you dear fellow and have a discussion about our differing opinions over the bottle?

Not at all...

And there are people drinking spiritual poison.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

How does what you said relate this thread's topic? Give me a little help here!

 

[LeeS]

As I often tell people, if I saw my son drinking bleach, the most loving thing to do is not to gently say "My darling son, I do believe you are mistaken about the contents of the bottle which you are currently holding to your mouth. Could I pray for you dear fellow and have a discussion about our differing opinions over the bottle?

Not at all...

And there are people drinking spiritual poison.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

This is true. So how are we to correct others without giving them whiplash and/or breaking their necks while trying to wrestle the bottle out of their hands? Why can't we just say what is truth and then leave it to the Holy Spirit to take our words of Truth and burn it into the hearts of those who heard? Why must we insist on screaming at each other and calling each other names, etc., etc.? I believe Paul called a spade a spade but he NEVER broke Jewish culture. Talk between many groups consist of passionate and firey behavior but others are not that way at all. When in Rome Paul did as the Romans did. He did not go into their culture and speak to them in ways they would view as offensive. Neither did Jesus. Yes, Jesus said what we percieve as very strong words, yet that was His culture. What He said, may have stirred up wrath because He really did know their hearts and He exposed it. But He NEVER said something that was "offensive"...meaning something that would cause the person to stumble and fall in their walk with Him.

I'm not saying we should be tolerant of others beliefs that are wrong but there is a way to speak the Truth and God says it's to be in love. I think it can be a difficult thing at times. We must follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit just does not continuously scream at people who believe differently than I. If someone is drinking spiritual poison, absolutely I believe we need to tell them. But after we've told them we need to not strangle them and kill them too.

Those are just my thoughts.

 

[Prosperity]

This is true. So how are we to correct others without giving them whiplash and/or breaking their necks while trying to wrestle the bottle out of their hands?

Unless is your dealing with your own child, somone that you have direct authotiy over, a personal or property safety issue, civil disobedience, etc. give people the Word in truth and in love, pray for them, and let God convict their hearts. People change when they decide to, not when we want them to.

Why can't we just say what is truth and then leave it to the Holy Spirit to take our words of Truth and burn it into the hearts of those who heard?

Why can't we just let God speak to their hearts through His word?

Why must we insist on screaming at each other and calling each other names, etc., etc.? I believe Paul called a spade a spade but he NEVER broke Jewish culture.

This has been answered in post # 4

Talk between many groups consist of passionate and fiery behavior but others are not that way at all. When in Rome Paul did as the Romans did.

Again, answered in post # 4.

He did not go into their culture and speak to them in ways they would view as offensive. Neither did Jesus. Yes, Jesus said what we perceive as very strong words, yet that was His culture.

Jesus spoke words of living love. When you hear His voice, this is what you hear. To often we hear His voice though our understanding and comes out of our mouths the way we speak, not the way Jesus spoke it to us.

What He said, may have stirred up wrath because He really did know their hearts and He exposed it. But He NEVER said something that was "offensive"...meaning something that would cause the person to stumble and fall in their walk with Him.

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Jesus called the religious leaders of his day serpents and vipers. This is where most of the wrath was. Many of the Jews and Gentiles loved Him.

I'm not saying we should be tolerant of others beliefs that are wrong but there is a way to speak the Truth and God says it's to be in love. I think it can be a difficult thing at times. We must follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit just does not continuously scream at people who believe differently than I. If someone is drinking spiritual poison, absolutely I believe we need to tell them. But after we've told them we need to not strangle them and kill them too.

Maybe we should make sure that God wants us to tell them anything. Many times we speak from personal offense and we are not the ones who God would have to rebuke another. If you try to correct another without the anointing in you words, the correction will fail. Other times we expect immediate results when we have done everything correctly, but it just takes a while for it to take root and grow in the other person.

Those are just my thoughts.

These are my leadings.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Maybe we should make sure that God wants us to tell them anything. Many times we speak from personal offense and we are not the ones who God would have to rebuke another. If you try to correct another without the anointing in you words, the correction will fail. Other times we expect immediate results when we have done everything correctly, but it just takes a while for it to take root and grow in the other person.

Ah, my point exactly.

 

[BUTTERS]

It is so difficult.
They rob people of the blessings Jesus suffered and purchased for us with His own body. They rail against the truth and exhalt their own human religion and works. What can we do against such evil? I mean that word. The devil has these people like puppets. They really believe God is the source of their suffering.
You want to grab them by the scruff of the neck and scream
"STOP ACCUSING MY FATHER OF THESE EVIL THINGS"
"STOP SAYING JESUS IS A FAILURE.

It is very difficult indeed.

I am not angry.
I am sad.

 

[churchlady]

It is so difficult.
They rob people of the blessings Jesus suffered and purchased for us with His own body. They rail against the truth and exhalt their own human religion and works. What can we do against such evil? I mean that word. The devil has these people like puppets. They really believe God is the source of their suffering.
You want to grab them by the scruff of the neck and scream
"STOP ACCUSING MY FATHER OF THESE EVIL THINGS"
"STOP SAYING JESUS IS A FAILURE.

It is very difficult indeed.

I am not angry.
I am sad.

When people have as much truth spoken to them as they get on this forum (backed by scripture and verse), you have to wonder if the deception is willful.

I always feel that there are many lurking and reading that are being taught and blessed. They may not post, but they listen because they are open to truth.

Anyway, this is just a small taste of the persecution to come, (mainly from the church), I think. A great divide is coming.

Don't be sad, Butters. God's truth can't be stopped. It's growing and spreading inspite of what we see here.

 

[psalms 91]

We are in the very last days and it says there will be many false doctrines and false teachers. Hold fast to the truth and get prepared for what is coming because persecution is not far off. There are many things getting ready to happen I believe and we must know what we believe and be prepared for what is coming. You are right when you say that the church will be part of the persecution but it wont be the bride but the church the government will approve of.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

When people have as much truth spoken to them as they get on this forum (backed by scripture and verse), you have to wonder if the deception is willful.

I always feel that there are many lurking and reading that are being taught and blessed. They may not post, but they listen because they are open to truth.

Anyway, this is just a small taste of the persecution to come, (mainly from the church), I think. A great divide is coming.

Don't be sad, Butters. God's truth can't be stopped. It's growing and spreading inspite of what we see here.

This is true. Theres been many a time when I've received PM's from others I had had no previous contact with saying they read something I said and wanted me to explain it more to them. Even though some may be screaming and throwing hissy fits there are other who are soaking it all up, they are just silent.

 

[KingZzub]

Amen.

 

[charityagape]

This is a simple question which has a simple answer.





Speak to one another in love and in truth.



So we clearly see that Jesus gave a commandment to love.



Jesus gave a new commandment which I've seen very few of my brothers and sisters follow because they prefer to satiate their emotional and intellectual attitudes.



I've seen Christians attack each other far more than I've seen the world attack Christians. It should not be this way. The world already hates Christians, because the world hated Jesus first. Christians should quit eating their own.

The biggest problem I see that Christians have in obeying God is that they refuse to make the sacrifice that obedience requires. Jesus said that if we love him, we will keep His commandments, and his chief commandment is to love one another as He loved us.



How much did Jesus love the Father?



How much did Jesus love us? Enough to spread His arms wide and die for us!



There was no greater love than Jesus loved us with and Jesus defined this in this way...



How did Jesus say we were to love one another?



How much did Jesus say that He loved us?




Jesus didn't ask us to love each other, He commanded it.

Was Jesus being legalistic?

If He wasn't being legalistic, then why don't we more often obey this command. As a matter of fact Jesus not only commanded Christians to love each other, be He instructed us to love our enemies.




The only people I saw Jesus putting the hammer down on, in the Bible, was the religious people who were using religion to enslave, rob and murder people. Further, outside of the people identified in the previous sentence, I see no evidence that Jesus ever got hostile or nasty with anyone. Also, Paul was a master of language who was straight forward in his speech, as was Jesus, but again I see no where where Paul's speech was filled with hatred or violence towards another person.

Most Christians get in heated arguments because they don't want to crucify the old man. People choose to indulge their emotions and their intellect rather than listen to what the spirit is saying.



People will either serve their emotions and intellect or they will obey God. Most people seem to try for a middle road between satiating their emotions and obeying God when it comes to loving people. These are double minded people. If your not operating in love, then you are operating hatred. The mathematical equivalence of trying to simultaneously walk in love and hate result in walking in Hate all the time. Love(+) + Hate(-) = Hat(-) The result is...


Following our emotions, rather than obeying God, is a function of our failure to crucify the old man and the iniquity that is seeded in the old man. The old man always wants us to surrender our will to our emotions. God wants us to....


If you find yourself getting angry with people, then go check you relationship with God.

What is the requirement of love?

Amen, this is an awesome post. One that should always be remembered when posting.

 

[charityagape]

This is true. So how are we to correct others without giving them whiplash and/or breaking their necks while trying to wrestle the bottle out of their hands? Why can't we just say what is truth and then leave it to the Holy Spirit to take our words of Truth and burn it into the hearts of those who heard? Why must we insist on screaming at each other and calling each other names, etc., etc.? I believe Paul called a spade a spade but he NEVER broke Jewish culture. Talk between many groups consist of passionate and firey behavior but others are not that way at all. When in Rome Paul did as the Romans did. He did not go into their culture and speak to them in ways they would view as offensive. Neither did Jesus. Yes, Jesus said what we percieve as very strong words, yet that was His culture. What He said, may have stirred up wrath because He really did know their hearts and He exposed it. But He NEVER said something that was "offensive"...meaning something that would cause the person to stumble and fall in their walk with Him.

I'm not saying we should be tolerant of others beliefs that are wrong but there is a way to speak the Truth and God says it's to be in love. I think it can be a difficult thing at times. We must follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit just does not continuously scream at people who believe differently than I. If someone is drinking spiritual poison, absolutely I believe we need to tell them. But after we've told them we need to not strangle them and kill them too.

Those are just my thoughts.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There are several keys to healthy debating:

1. Respect the person you are debating with. I believe that we should always use respectful language. We can win an argument through aggression and personal attacks but we can lose the fellowship of a good brother or sister as well.

2. Know what you are talking about. A good debater knows his or her subject well. If you are going to challenge the points that other people make, you need to provide counter arguments that are credible. To have that credibility, you need to be able to quote appropriate scriptures that support your arguments, and convince others that you know the scriptures and how to apply them.

3. Don't take things personally. Remember, other debaters are taking issue with your writing and what you are saying in your posts. They are not putting you down personally. Therefore, keep your cool, and refute their views through persuation and logic, rather than inflammatory reactions.

4. If you are personally attacked, end the debate. That person has lost credibility and you are wasting your time continuing with them.

5. If you get to the point where the arguments of the other debater have proved you wrong, admit and acknowledge it. You have been beaten by a superior foe. Yield gracefully and live again to fight another day. Your opponents will respect you for it.

6. Don't be afraid to tell a person that they are talking nonsense, if you can back up your assertion through good evidence. If you don't have good backup evidence, keep your remarks at a low key level. You can only call another debater a softheaded, deluded, purveyer of verbal garbage if you know certainly that you are right and can prove it.

 

[Bethshaya]

How does what you said relate this thread's topic? Give me a little help here!

I think, in colorful terms, he means...

If someone is engaging in things that will cause them spiritual death...smack'em silly and yell at them to get their attention. Anything less would be callous and a total disregard for their salvation.

Paul wasnt so nice when he saw brothers and sisters falling by the wayside. He told it like it was. He wasn't all nice and fluffy, telling them that they can believe what they choose. He told them, this is the Word, it is Truth, wake up!

Now, there are definately times when interpretation isn't a point where it is detrimental to someone's spiritual health, it's simply a different interpretation. Those are the times when you politely agree to disagree.

 

[Prosperity]

Amen, this is an awesome post. One that should always be remembered when posting.

Thankl you!

 

[J4Jesus]

How do we debate with a right heart?

Very good PastorJ

Our attitude has everything to do with our faith walk. Faith works by love

Here is a verse I think hits the nail on the head.
1 Timothy 6:3-5 KJV

(3) If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

(4) He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

(5) Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth,

1Ti 6:4

(AMP) He is puffed up with pride and stupefied with conceit, [although he is] woefully ignorant. He has a morbid fondness for controversy and disputes and strife about words, which result in (produce) envy and jealousy, quarrels and dissension, abuse and insults and slander, and base suspicions,

(BBE) He has an over-high opinion of himself; being without knowledge, having only an unhealthy love of questionings and wars of words, from which come envy, fighting, cruel words, evil thoughts,

(MSG) tag them for what they are: ignorant windbags who infect the air with germs of envy, controversy, bad-mouthing, suspicious rumors.

(WNT) he is puffed up with pride and has no true knowledge, but is crazy over discussions and controversies about words which give rise to envy, quarrelling, revilings, ill-natured suspicions,
1 Timothy 6:5 GNB

(5) and constant arguments from people whose minds do not function and who no longer have the truth. They think that religion is a way to become rich.

Wow! Did they have internet in bible days?
PJ