How can the two be the same?

[k4c]

There are some who say that Michael and Jesus are the same yet the Bible presents them as two different beings, for example, the fight in heaven between Michael and the devil.

Revelation 12:7-11 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

A fight in heaven took place where Michael was able to cast out the devil and his angels because of Jesus' shed blood. This tells us that Michael and Jesus are two different people/beings. How do the SDA's get around this fact?

Again we have a separation of Michael and Jesus in Daniel.

Daniel 10:5-13 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz! His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude. And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, for the men who were with me did not see the vision; but a great terror fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. Therefore I was left alone when I saw this great vision, and no strength remained in me; for my vigor was turned to frailty in me, and I retained no strength. Yet I heard the sound of his words; and while I heard the sound of his words I was in a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground. Then, suddenly, a hand touched me, which made me tremble on my knees and on the palms of my hands. And he said to me, "O Daniel, man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you.'' While he was speaking this word to me, I stood trembling. Then he said to me, "Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.

This Being clothed in white with eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished brass with a voice of a multitude is the preincarnate Jesus.

Here He is again in Revelation.

Revenlation 1:13-15 And in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and His hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;

Tell me, how can Micahel and Jesus be together in the same verses in Daniel yet be the same person?

 

[honorthesabbath]

There are some who say that Michael and Jesus are the same yet the Bible presents them as two different beings, for example, the fight in heaven between Michael and the devil.

Revelation 12:7-11 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

A fight in heaven took place where Michael was able to cast out the devil and his angels because of Jesus' shed blood. This tells us that Michael and Jesus are two different people/beings. How do the SDA's get around this fact?

The reason for this is because the "Lamb was slain from the 'foundation of the world'. Just as every son and daughter of God knew from Adam and Eve forward, this is why A&E did not die 'that day'. And in no way does this text even come close to saying that Jesus and Michael are different beings. You are injecting that into the text.

Again we have a separation of Michael and Jesus in Daniel.

Daniel 10:5-13 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz! His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude. And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, for the men who were with me did not see the vision; but a great terror fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. Therefore I was left alone when I saw this great vision, and no strength remained in me; for my vigor was turned to frailty in me, and I retained no strength. Yet I heard the sound of his words; and while I heard the sound of his words I was in a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground. Then, suddenly, a hand touched me, which made me tremble on my knees and on the palms of my hands. And he said to me, "O Daniel, man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you.'' While he was speaking this word to me, I stood trembling. Then he said to me, "Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.

This Being clothed in white with eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished brass with a voice of a multitude is the preincarnate Jesus.

And you think Jesus looked like this before His incarnation? lol. Besides, read carefully the text. This angel that comes to Daniel is GABRIEL, not Michael. And so, I ask, your point?

Here He is again in Revelation.

Revenlation 1:13-15 And in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and His hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;

Tell me, how can Micahel and Jesus be together in the same verses in Daniel yet be the same person?

Not sure what you are seeing in these verses, but certainly not what you think it says. You'll have to be more concise.

 

[Xenon]

Revelation 12:7-11 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

A fight in heaven took place where Michael was able to cast out the devil and his angels because of Jesus' shed blood. This tells us that Michael and Jesus are two different people/beings. How do the SDA's get around this fact?

If that is true, then the angels also "did not love their lives to the death." The ones who overcame through the blood of the Lamb are certainly the "brethren" who are accused in verse 10, not the angels.

Daniel 10:5-13 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz! His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude. And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, for the men who were with me did not see the vision; but a great terror fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. Therefore I was left alone when I saw this great vision, and no strength remained in me; for my vigor was turned to frailty in me, and I retained no strength. Yet I heard the sound of his words; and while I heard the sound of his words I was in a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground. Then, suddenly, a hand touched me, which made me tremble on my knees and on the palms of my hands. And he said to me, "O Daniel, man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you.'' While he was speaking this word to me, I stood trembling. Then he said to me, "Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.

This Being clothed in white with eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished brass with a voice of a multitude is the preincarnate Jesus.

Here He is again in Revelation.

Revenlation 1:13-15 And in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and His hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;

Tell me, how can Micahel and Jesus be together in the same verses in Daniel yet be the same person?

If the one speaking to Daniel is Jesus, how is it that Michael holds him up to the Scripture of Truth spoken of in verse 21?

 

[Pythons]

K4C,

They (Michael & Christ ) are not one in the same. This should help.

But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, ONE OF THE chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

The following is from the Tanach,

But the [heavenly] prince of the Persian kingdom stood opposed to me for twentyone days, UNTIL MICHAEL, ONE OF the foremost [heavenly] PRINCES, came to help me.

Michael is ONE OF MORE "PRINCES". Prince William is ONE OF the Princes of the British Monarchy. I've traced this issue out previously K4C,

Satan was once an honored angel in heaven, next to Christ. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing great intelligence. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. But when God said to His Son, "Let us make man in our image," Satan was jealous of Jesus. He wished to be consulted concerning the formation of man, and because he was not, he was filled with envy, jealousy, and hatred. He desired to receive the highest honors in heaven NEXT TO GOD.

A) Christ RECEIVED the highest honors BY "GOD" asking Him to help with the creation of man.

B). Satan was "next to Christ", Christ was next to God. Satan became jealous because he didn't receive the highest honors NEXT TO GOD that Christ JUST DID.

C) Christ was an angel and Satan was therefore the 3rd highest power in heaven (next to Christ).

(1) God / (2) Christ / (3) Lucifer / Opps (4) The Holy Spirit

When you gave yourself to Christ, you made a pledge in the presence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,--the three great personal Dignitaries of heaven. "Hold fast" to this pledge. . . . {SD 351.3}

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the three holy dignitiaries of heaven, have declared that they will strengthen men to overcome the powers of darkness. All the facilities of heaven are pledged to those who by their baptismal vows have entered into a covenant with God (MS 92, 1901). {5BC 1110.8}

Check the math K4C, if Satan was next to Christ and Christ was next to God THE THIRD DIGNITARY WAS (not is now) Satan. Satan gets booted from heaven and viola, The Holy Spirit then becomes the third. Frankly, there isn't another way it works out that I can see.

 

[Stryder06]

K4C,

They (Michael & Christ ) are not one in the same. This should help.



The following is from the Tanach,



Michael is ONE OF MORE "PRINCES". Prince William is ONE OF the Princes of the British Monarchy. I've traced this issue out previously K4C,



A) Christ RECEIVED the highest honors BY "GOD" asking Him to help with the creation of man.

B). Satan was "next to Christ", Christ was next to God. Satan became jealous because he didn't receive the highest honors NEXT TO GOD that Christ JUST DID.

C) Christ was an angel and Satan was therefore the 3rd highest power in heaven (next to Christ).

(1) God / (2) Christ / (3) Lucifer / Opps (4) The Holy Spirit





Check the math K4C, if Satan was next to Christ and Christ was next to God THE THIRD DIGNITARY WAS (not is now) Satan. Satan gets booted from heaven and viola, The Holy Spirit then becomes the third. Frankly, there isn't another way it works out that I can see.

Ok this has thoroughly confused me. Michael is simply another name given to Jesus. The highest being in heaven next to Christ was Lucifier. Jesus and the Father are One. Jesus is God, has been and always will be. He is equal to God.

Being called Michael the archangel is an expression of how He is the lead commander of the angelic host, kinda like how the president is called the commander and chief.

I read a magazine article not a little while ago where the author said that the same way that Christ revealed Himself to us in human form is the same way that He most likely revealed Himself to the angels once they were created, in an angelic like form.

 

[Pythons]

Ok this has thoroughly confused me. Michael is simply another name given to Jesus. The highest being in heaven next to Christ was Lucifier. Jesus and the Father are One. Jesus is God, has been and always will be. He is equal to God.

Being called Michael the archangel is an expression of how He is the lead commander of the angelic host, kinda like how the president is called the commander and chief.

I read a magazine article not a little while ago where the author said that the same way that Christ revealed Himself to us in human form is the same way that He most likely revealed Himself to the angels once they were created, in an angelic like form.

Not so fast. This is how Ellen declaired Jesus and the Father are one,

The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. THEY ARE ONE in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. IT IS THUS THAT Christ and God are ONE.

Jesus is ONE with God exactly like Jesus was one with the disciples. Would you say that the disciples are God? I wouldn't either.

You say that Jesus and God count for 1 and Ellen says Lucifer was next to Christ - that still places the Holy Spirit lower in ranking then Satan. How does this work.

Scripture says that OTHER chief Princes existed along with Michael and that necessates that Michael is one among other CHEIF PRINCES.

I'm certain Christ can reveal Himself in countless ways, however attempting to say the Bible identifies Him as Michael the Archangel does not work - at all. This is where FB #18 is proven in what I've been saying it was all along. Ellen said Michael was Christ and Daniel 10,13 says Michael was a Prince among "other" Chief Princes.

 

[oldsage]

Maybe Michael is a "type" of Christ like Jonah is a type and Issac is a type?

 

[Xenon]

Jesus is ONE with God exactly like Jesus was one with the disciples. Would you say that the disciples are God? I wouldn't either.

You say that Jesus and God count for 1 and Ellen says Lucifer was next to Christ - that still places the Holy Spirit lower in ranking then Satan. How does this work.

It only works in your head. I have not once heard anyone interpret what she wrote that way. You really do seem to be trying to abuse what she wrote on purpose.

 

[Pythons]

It only works in your head. I have not once heard anyone interpret what she wrote that way. You really do seem to be trying to abuse what she wrote on purpose.

I assure you that quote is in context Xenon. I have a 1904 copy of Testimonies for the Church right in front of me. It says exactly what I said it did.

The reason you've not heard anyone say this is because I read the material myself and don't get my talking points from anti-SDA websites (who generally has just as big an axe to grind against Catholicism). I am willing to bet that I have more pre-1900 material from Ellen White then most SDA's do, also I read books authored by SDA's such as Edwin Zackrison and others who very much believe in SDA Doctrines - this I bounce off of historic Christian teaching.

 

[Pythons]

Maybe Michael is a "type" of Christ like Jonah is a type and Issac is a type?

I suppose that's possible.

 

[oldsage]

If you look at history, the idea of Michael being Jesus isn't SDA in origin. A.T. Roberson, John Gill, Matthew Henry, and I think, John Darby all made reference to Michael being Jesus. I can see at times where they are two different people and others I see Michael being typified at Christ or Christ said in reference to Michael. So, depending on the reference I guess you can have true arguments on both sides. I think the "type" argument best explains it.

 

[Stryder06]

Not so fast. This is how Ellen declaired Jesus and the Father are one,



Jesus is ONE with God exactly like Jesus was one with the disciples. Would you say that the disciples are God? I wouldn't either.

You say that Jesus and God count for 1 and Ellen says Lucifer was next to Christ - that still places the Holy Spirit lower in ranking then Satan. How does this work.

Scripture says that OTHER chief Princes existed along with Michael and that necessates that Michael is one among other CHEIF PRINCES.

I'm certain Christ can reveal Himself in countless ways, however attempting to say the Bible identifies Him as Michael the Archangel does not work - at all. This is where FB #18 is proven in what I've been saying it was all along. Ellen said Michael was Christ and Daniel 10,13 says Michael was a Prince among "other" Chief Princes.

You know that your assumptions are really misplaced. First many of the things I learned about the bible I learned before I read the writings of Sr White. You assume that all our beliefs are based on what she wrote. This is an assertion based on ignorance of how each individual learns the bible truths.

Secondly your quote is mistaken. Which testimony is that from, and what is Sr White talking about. The entire section should be analyzed, not just one or two sentences from a paragraph. Christ in no way is equal with the disciples the way that He is equal with God, because He is God.

By process of elimination you'd have to assume that Michael is Christ. For Lucifer was the highest created being. There was no angel higher than Him. It was God, than Lucifer.

 

[Pythons]

You know that your assumptions are really misplaced. First many of the things I learned about the bible I learned before I read the writings of Sr White. You assume that all our beliefs are based on what she wrote. This is an assertion based on ignorance of how each individual learns the bible truths.

My assertion is based on the logical fallacy that, according to SDA Fundamental belief, you have TWO SOURCES of Truth with one of them being "authoritative" in correcting and guiding your study of the other. You're a good guy Stryder and I appreciate you stepping up here to discuss this. Ellen White IS a doctrine of the SDA Church and her relation to the Bible is spelled out in FB #18 very clearly. I don't assume - I read a lot.

Secondly your quote is mistaken. Which testimony is that from, and what is Sr White talking about. The entire section should be analyzed, not just one or two sentences from a paragraph. Christ in no way is equal with the disciples the way that He is equal with God, because He is God.

The quote was taken from my original copy of Testimonies for the Church, Volume 8. between pages 264 and 269. I'll expand it more for you and take some digital pictures of it so that you know I'm not trying to pull a fast one.

God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an EXALTED POSITION. He HAS BEEN MADE EQUAL WITH THE FATHER. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son.

Jesus said to the Jews: "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.... The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son, and showeth Him all things that Himself doeth."

Here again is brought o view THE PERSONALITY of the FATHER and the SON, showing the unity that exists between them. This unity is expressed in the seventeenth chapter of John

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

Wonderful statement! The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. IT IS THUS THAT GOD AND CHRIST ARE ONE.

Orthodox Christianity says the Lord our God is ONE ( as in ONE God / Father, Son and Holy Spirit ). Ellen just quoted the Scripture where Jesus prayed that the Apostles were one then says that the character of the disciples is one and the same as the Character of Christ then goes on to say that it is thus that God and Christ are ONE - this is why I asked you if the disciples are God. Notice that the disciples are ONE with Christ in the same way Jesus is ONE with "GOD". I'm glad you said Jesus is God. I've actually had SDA's tell me something else.

By process of elimination you'd have to assume that Michael is Christ. For Lucifer was the highest created being. There was no angel higher than Him. It was God, than Lucifer.

"Next to Christ", Ellen said Satan was 'next to Christ'. This is my process of elimination.

Satan was once an honored angel in heaven, NEXT TO CHRIST. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing great intelligence. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic.

But when GOD said to His Son, "Let us make man in our image", Satan was jealous of Jesus. He wished to consulted concerning the formation of man, and because he was not, he was filled with envy, jealousy, and hatred. HE DESIRED TO RECEIVE THE HIGHEST HONORS IN HEAVEN NEXT TO GOD. Until this time all heaven had been in order, harmony, and perfect subjection to the government of God.

There it is Stryder, Satan was jealous because he didn't receive the highest honors in heaven NEXT TO GOD, like Jesus "JUST" did!

God (1) / Jesus (2) / Satan (3) / Holy Spirit (4)

If Jesus is next to God and Satan is next to Jesus then the Holy Spirit would have to be next to Satan, right? The testimony of Ellen says everything was A-OK in heaven until God exalted Jesus when He received the "highest honors in heaven" NEXT TO GOD. If Jesus wouldn't have been "moved" next to God then Satan would still be happy would he not?

In any event if Scripture states that Michael was one of other Princes that would require that there was "other Christ's". This eliminates it right out of the gate.

 

[Stryder06]

I replied to this yesterday but it isn't showing for some reason. It's late and the reply you deserve will need to be of better quality than I can give right now.

 

[PaleHorse]

Maybe Michael is a "type" of Christ like Jonah is a type and Issac is a type?

I tend to think of it more as a theophany rather than 'type'. A couple other examples:
1) Josh. 5:13-15 - Jesus appearing as the "captain of the host of the Lord" (KJV)
2) Gen. 14:18 - Jesus appearing to Abram as an earthly priest

I believe God is powerful enough to appear to man in any fashion He decides to - whether its as a flame, a pillar of cloud, a military captain, a lowly/earthly priest, and most certainly as an angel.

*Just a few thoughts of mine.

 

[Pythons]

I tend to think of it more as a theophany rather than 'type'. A couple other examples:
1) Josh. 5:13-15 - Jesus appearing as the "captain of the host of the Lord" (KJV)
2) Gen. 14:18 - Jesus appearing to Abram as an earthly priest

I believe God is powerful enough to appear to man in any fashion He decides to - whether its as a flame, a pillar of cloud, a military captain, a lowly/earthly priest, and most certainly as an angel.

*Just a few thoughts of mine.

"Michael the Archangel" is ONE of MORE of THE SAME which would invalidate him being "Him".

But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days:

but, lo, Michael, one of the chief PRINCES, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Michael is ONE OF MORE of the Same. Answer me this? "Was" ( as in past tense ) Satan an Archangel?

 

[PaleHorse]

"Michael the Archangel" is ONE of MORE of THE SAME which would invalidate him being "Him".

Ummm.... no. I think you may be confused into thinking that 'one' is translated as we would use it today. Here is the same verse using Young's Literal Translation:
YLT: `And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;

The difference between "one" & "first" in the original Hebrew ('echad) is a tough choice for a translator. In fact, 'echad can mean, depending on the context, any of the following:

1) one (number)

a) one (number)
b) each, every
c) a certain
d) an (indefinite article)
e) only, once, once for all
f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
g) first
h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)
​

This is precisely why I don't rely on just one translation; inherent in any translation is certain degree of interpretation.

 

[Pythons]

Ummm.... no. I think you may be confused into thinking that 'one' is translated as we would use it today. Here is the same verse using Young's Literal Translation:
YLT: `And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;

The difference between "one" & "first" in the original Hebrew ('echad) is a tough choice for a translator. In fact, 'echad can mean, depending on the context, any of the following:

1) one (number)

a) one (number)
b) each, every
c) a certain
d) an (indefinite article)
e) only, once, once for all
f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
g) first
h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)
​

This is precisely why I don't rely on just one translation; inherent in any translation is certain degree of interpretation.

I've got the Bible gateway bookmarked as well. That translation convicts the notion Michael is Christ with even more vigor then does the KJV.

The "HEAD" of the kingdom of Persia is working against Daniel until Michael, the FIRST OF OTHER CHEIF HEADS, comes to his aid. The following are examples.

These [are] those called of the company, princes of the tribes of their fathers; they [are] heads of the thousands of Israel

and the princes of Israel (heads of the house of their fathers, they [are] princes of the tribes, they who are standing over those numbered) bring near

And if with one they blow, then have the princes, heads of the thousands of Israel, met together unto thee

And the sons of Reuben, and the sons of Gad, and the half of the tribe of Manasseh, answer and speak with the heads of the thousands of Israel

And two men, heads of troops, have been [to] the son of Saul, the name of the one [is] Baanah, and the name of the second Rechab, sons of Rimmon the Beerothite, of the sons of Benjamin, for also Beeroth is reckoned to Benjamin

So, you are saying Christ is 1st OF the chief headS, that's a plural Palehorse. How many chief's are there?

 

[PaleHorse]

I've got the Bible gateway bookmarked as well. That translation convicts the notion Michael is Christ with even more vigor then does the KJV.

I don't use Bible Gateway - but thanks for the reference; I will check it out and bookmark it if I find it useful.

The "HEAD" of the kingdom of Persia is working against Daniel until Michael, the FIRST OF OTHER CHEIF HEADS, comes to his aid. The following are examples.

So, you are saying Christ is 1st OF the chief headS, that's a plural Palehorse. How many chief's are there?

Ummm... the word 'of' doesn't exist in Hebrew; that word is added so that the english translation flows. What the verse is saying is that Michael, THE Archangel (singular - Jude 1:9), is FIRST, that is, the Leader/Commander, of the heavenly host (which is a plural). The host is plural, the Leader/Commander is singlular.

Does that help?

 

[Pythons]

I don't use Bible Gateway - but thanks for the reference; I will check it out and bookmark it if I find it useful.


Ummm... the word 'of' doesn't exist in Hebrew; that word is added so that the english translation flows. What the verse is saying is that Michael, THE Archangel (singular - Jude 1:9), is FIRST, that is, the Leader/Commander, of the heavenly host (which is a plural). The host is plural, the Leader/Commander is singlular.

Does that help?

"Heads" not head, Princes not Prince, Angel's not Angel. Deal with Young's translation of "Head S" or the KJV's translation of PRINCE S. In fact you will note that ALL translation list them plural. Except the Seventh-day Adventist Translation. I even checked the Jehovah's Witnesses' New Word Translation and even they don't push it into the area you have. This is going to be interesting and I will stick it out with you.

But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia

But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, (A)Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

'Relax, Daniel,' he continued, 'don't be afraid. From the moment you decided to humble yourself to receive understanding, your prayer was heard, and I set out to come to you. But I was waylaid by the angel-prince of the kingdom of Persia and was delayed for a good three weeks. But then Michael, one of the chief angel-princes, intervened to help me. I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of Persia. And now I'm here to help you understand what will eventually happen to your people. The vision has to do with what's ahead.'

But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me for twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief [of the celestial] princes, came to help me, for I remained there with the kings of Persia.

But for twenty-one days the spirit prince[a] of the kingdom of Persia blocked my way. Then Michael, one of the archangels,[b] came to help me, and I left him there with the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia.

But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia

The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me(B) twenty-one days, but(C) Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia

But the guardian angel [a] of Persia opposed me for twenty-one days. Then Michael, who is one of the strongest guardian angels, [b] came to rescue me from the kings of Persia

But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia

But the prince of Persia has been fighting against me for twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the most important angels, came to help me, because I had been left there with the king of Persia

But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I remained there with the kings of Persia

But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia

And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia

But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia

But the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for 21 days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me after I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

But the prince of the kingdom of the Persians resisted me one and twenty days: and behold Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I remained there by the king of the Persians

The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, so I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of Persia

Now, lets step outside what is generally considered Orthodox and take a look at a few other texts considered Sacred.

But the heavenly Prince of the Persian kingdome stood opposed to me for twenty-one days, until Michael, one of the foremost heavenly Princes, came to help me, for I had remained there alone beside the kings of Persia.

Let's look at the SDA Translation now. The Orthodox Jewish translation is not translating it as you do.

"then Michael, the prince of the Lord's host, came to help me"

Now, Palehorse. Why does every translation EXCEPT the SDA translation translate a plural in heads, princes or angels and the SDA translation insist that it is not plural?