History Reveals Dinosaurs

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟155,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
You've obviously not seen what a buildup of gas and underwater crustaceans can do to an animal when it's dead.
It's called decay - and is the opposite of fossilization. That's why you do not find millions of fossilized buffalo. because decay destroys even bones. In Fact you can't find any creatures undergoing the process of fossilization within the last 6,000 years. Because fossilization only occurs when there is a catastrophic event that buries them in sediments immediately or soon after death, before decay begins to set in.

If anyone doubts this then please show me any animals that died within the past 6,000 years undergoing the process of fossilization? There have been zero - count them zero, zill, zilch found.
 
Upvote 0

The Cadet

SO COOL
Apr 29, 2010
6,290
4,743
Munich
✟45,617.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
If anyone doubts this then please show me any animals that died within the past 6,000 years undergoing the process of fossilization? There have been zero - count them zero, zill, zilch found.
...You do realize that for fossilization to take place, it's usually necessary that the animals be deposited in places inaccessible to predators, air, and the like, right? So "show me a modern case of fossilization" is a bit of an absurd demand. I mean, you say it yourself:

fossilization only occurs when there is a catastrophic event that buries them in sediments immediately or soon after death, before decay begins to set in.

They're buried.
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟155,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
...You do realize that for fossilization to take place, it's usually necessary that the animals be deposited in places inaccessible to predators, air, and the like, right? So "show me a modern case of fossilization" is a bit of an absurd demand. I mean, you say it yourself:

Why is this absurd - you guys argue all the time against a flood and catastrophe as being the reason and have millions of fossils and now suddenly argue the exact opposite. Make up your minds. So you agree that without cataclysmic action fossilization is impossible?

The only thing absurd is your refusal to accept that all fossils are the end of that life - cataclysmic extinction - not a snapshot through the lifetime of those creatures.

According to you dinosaurs span millions of years in fossils, yet now you are arguing against just that occurring as "it's usually necessary that the animals be deposited in places inaccessible to predators, air, and the like, right?"


They're buried.

By cataclysmic events - agreed. Otherwise the same process that buried them then, if not cataclysmic, would be burying them now.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Astrophile

Newbie
Aug 30, 2013
2,280
1,525
76
England
✟233,873.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Widowed
It is also important to note for this thread / OP, that the etymology of the word "dragon" is:

"Middle English (also denoting a large serpent): from Old French, via Latin from Greek drakōn ‘serpent.’"

etymology of the word dragon. Google.

dragon (n.)
early 13c., from Old French dragon, from Latin draconem (nominative draco) "huge serpent, dragon," from Greek drakon (genitive drakontos) "serpent, giant seafish," apparently from drak-, strong aorist stem of derkesthai "to see clearly," from PIE *derk- "to see." Perhaps the literal sense is "the one with the (deadly) glance."

dragon. Online Etymology Dictionary. Retrieved from http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=dragon

What is interesting, is that cultures from all over the world and in past centuries have legends of "dragons". The ubiquity of this phenomena is enough to make one ask the question, why? If we add to this the fossils of dinosaurs that we find, which are supposed to be separated from man by millions of years, another question raised is, could these "dragons" be dinosaurs?

It is also possible that the fire-breathing dragons of European mythology were meteors and fireballs rather than any sort of animal. In British usage the word 'dragon' has often been interpreted, and even formally defined, as meaning a meteor. For example, the great fireball of 18 August 1783, which was seen over most of Britain, 'was of that species of meteor' [called] 'the Draco volans or Flying Dragon'.

In particular, Martin Beech, in his book Meteors and Meteorites (2006), p. 7, explicitly identifies the 'flying dragons' or 'fire-drakes' of old records as very bright meteors or fireballs. In addition, Mike Baillie, in his books Exodus to Arthur (1999) and New Light on the Black Death (2006) gives much space to the identification of 'fire-breathing dragons' with fireballs. In Chapter 18 of New Light on the Black Death, Baillie quotes Afanas'ev (1852) as saying 'simple folk take falling stars and meteors to be dragons'.

The etymology of the word dragon, and its derivation from a word meaning 'to see clearly' could be interpreted in different ways. On the meteoric hypothesis, one might suppose that dragons were bright objects that forced themselves on the sight of witnesses, or that they lit up the night sky and made the landscape visible.

All this evidence suggests that a meteoric hypothesis for dragons is worth considering. In any case, the interpretation of fire-breathing dragons as meteors and fireballs is much more likely than their interpretation as living non-avian dinosaurs. In my opinion it is also as plausible as interpreting them as reconstructions of fossil dinosaurs found by early scientists hundreds or thousands of years ago.
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟155,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
It is also possible that the fire-breathing dragons of European mythology were meteors and fireballs rather than any sort of animal. In British usage the word 'dragon' has often been interpreted, and even formally defined, as meaning a meteor. For example, the great fireball of 18 August 1783, which was seen over most of Britain, 'was of that species of meteor' [called] 'the Draco volans or Flying Dragon'.

In particular, Martin Beech, in his book Meteors and Meteorites (2006), p. 7, explicitly identifies the 'flying dragons' or 'fire-drakes' of old records as very bright meteors or fireballs. In addition, Mike Baillie, in his books Exodus to Arthur (1999) and New Light on the Black Death (2006) gives much space to the identification of 'fire-breathing dragons' with fireballs. In Chapter 18 of New Light on the Black Death, Baillie quotes Afanas'ev (1852) as saying 'simple folk take falling stars and meteors to be dragons'.

The etymology of the word dragon, and its derivation from a word meaning 'to see clearly' could be interpreted in different ways. On the meteoric hypothesis, one might suppose that dragons were bright objects that forced themselves on the sight of witnesses, or that they lit up the night sky and made the landscape visible.

All this evidence suggests that a meteoric hypothesis for dragons is worth considering. In any case, the interpretation of fire-breathing dragons as meteors and fireballs is much more likely than their interpretation as living non-avian dinosaurs. In my opinion it is also as plausible as interpreting them as reconstructions of fossil dinosaurs found by early scientists hundreds or thousands of years ago.

Agreed.

And all the mythologies fit perfectly if one allows themselves to "see," and does away with their own mythologies of an unchanging solar system.

 
Upvote 0

The Cadet

SO COOL
Apr 29, 2010
6,290
4,743
Munich
✟45,617.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
So you agree that without cataclysmic action fossilization is impossible?

I did no such thing. There's nothing cataclysmic about, say, falling into a tar pit. There's nothing cataclysmic about dying on the sea floor and having your remains gradually covered. There's nothing inherently cataclysmic about dying in a localized flood and having your remains immediately covered over by silt at a river delta.

According to you dinosaurs span millions of years in fossils, yet now you are arguing against just that occurring as "it's usually necessary that the animals be deposited in places inaccessible to predators, air, and the like, right?"

There's no contradiction here. For millions of years, it's happened the creatures die in ways that makes their skeletons inaccessible to large predators, air, mold, and the like, allowing for some form of fossilization.

By cataclysmic events - agreed. Otherwise the same process that buried them then, if not cataclysmic, would be burying them now.

Again, you miss the point: if it was buried in the last 6,000 years, it's probably not mineralized yet. These things take time, and it's also usually quite hard to find corpses completely buried in sediment at the bottom of a riverbed, and not particularly productive to go hunting for them.

But let's take a look at your competing hypothesis, that these things are only possible via a cataclysmic flood. Question - why don't we find fossils jumbled throughout rock layers? Why is it that we never find, say, a bunny fossil below a trilobite fossil in the geologic column? How does a single flood event produce multiple distinct sedimentary layers, including coral, chalk, limestone, and igneous layers? How can it produce unconformities, and if such a flood was necessary to bury fossils, how come we can find fossils both below and above such unconformities?
 
Upvote 0

freezerman2000

Living and dying in 3/4 time
Feb 24, 2011
9,523
1,221
South Carolina
✟39,130.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Justatruthseeker said:
So you agree that without cataclysmic action fossilization is impossible?


------------

vent-deposit-1.jpg


^^^from the La Brea Tar Pits^^^ Fossils of prehistoric animals that got trapped in the tar(they have found human remains too..one,so far)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fossil_species_in_the_La_Brea_Tar_Pits
 
Upvote 0

Jfrsmth

Active Member
Aug 13, 2015
362
51
Philippines
✟8,740.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It is also possible that the fire-breathing dragons of European mythology were meteors and fireballs rather than any sort of animal. In British usage the word 'dragon' has often been interpreted, and even formally defined, as meaning a meteor.

I appreciate the input here. However, the overall image we observe from pretty much around the world, have to do with apparent sightings of creatures that are similar to dinosaurs, without flight, and without fire (although that would be an interesting, separate thread). The meaning of my post on the etymology of the word "dragon" had to do with the understanding of people in history, and what they termed these kinds of creatures to be.
 
Upvote 0

Jfrsmth

Active Member
Aug 13, 2015
362
51
Philippines
✟8,740.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
One explanation is that the footprints were made by angels that were assigned by God to watch over the dinosaurs at the time. It is impossible that they were human footprints because humans require a different climate and a different atmosphere then the dinosaurs. Some people even believe that the sky was red back then and not blue as it is today. The only mammals alive during that period were very small.

Is your comment on angels a legitimate proposal or are you making a sarcastic comment? My apologies, but I cannot discern it from your text. However, if a serious proposal, could you provide a biblical reference to angels watching over dinosaurs that might support such a claim?

"It is impossible that they were human footprints because humans require a different climate and a different atmosphere then the dinosaurs."

Why "impossible"? (1) What climate do dinosaurs need? (2) What climate do humans need? (3) What climate would prevent them from co-existing?

Apparently the climate in the Late Cretaceous Period, when there could have been some dinosaurs still roaming was tolerable for humans:

"The climate in the Late Cretaceous appears to have been much like it is today in the same general area — hot and dry for much of the year, resulting in severe droughts and stressed environments, but extremely wet for a few weeks or months. In other words, the climate was highly seasonal."

http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2011/05/17/unearthing-the-story-of-madagascar-fossil-by-fossil/

"Some people even believe that the sky was red back then and not blue as it is today."

What is the relevance?

"The only mammals alive during that period were very small." . . .

Fossil From Dinosaur Era Reveals Big Mammal With Super Senses

A guy named Carl Werner showed otherwise in his book, "The Grand Experiment" where he examined quite a few sites and examined the fossils found in various layers and discovered that there was quite a variety of creatures big and small, like what we have today, living with dinosaurs.

Additional information includes:

To the surprise of many, ducks[1], squirrels[2], platypus[3], beaver-like[4], and badger-like[5] creatures have all been found in ‘dinosaur-era’ rock layers along with bees, cockroaches, frogs and pine trees.

1. Cretaceous duck ruffles feathers, BBC news, www.bbc.co.uk, 20 January 2005.
2. Mesozoic Squirrel, Nature 444:889–893, 2006.
3. Swimming with dinos, www.museumvictoria.com.au, 24 January 2008, accessed 1 October 2010
4. Early Aquatic Mammal, Science 311 (5764): 1068, 24 February 2006
5. Dinosaur-eating mammal discovered in China, www. nhm.ac.uk,14 January 2005.


“We find mammals in almost all of our [dinosaur dig] sites. These were not noticed years ago … . We have about 20,000 pounds of bentonite clay that has mammal fossils that we are trying to give away to some researcher. It’s not that they are not important, it’s just that you only live once and I specialized in something other than mammals. I specialize in reptiles and dinosaurs.”

Interview with Dr Donald Burge, curator of vertebrate paleontology, College of Eastern Utah Prehistoric Museum by Dr Carl Werner, 13 February 2001, in Living Fossils—Evolution: The Grand Experiment, Vol. 2, New Leaf Press, 2009, p. 173.

David Krause of Stony Brook University in New York has been digging fossils in a Cretaceous deposit in Madagascar for over ten years. The interview with National Geographic highlighted his "most interesting and important finds," and the array of remains he's discovered lines up with what Werner found—plenty of non-dinosaur kinds located in dinosaur rock layers:

"We’ve been fortunate to unearth some of the most complete and best preserved specimens of fossil vertebrates (backboned animals including fishes, frogs, turtles, snakes, lizards, crocodiles, dinosaurs, birds, and mammals) from the Cretaceous of the southern supercontinent of Gondwana..."

Moffet, B. S. 2011. Unearthing the Story of Madagascar, Fossil by Fossil

Also:

It's Unbelievable What Modern Animals Were Alive Alongside The Dinosaurs. January 1, 2015
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

joshua 1 9

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 11, 2015
17,420
3,592
Northern Ohio
✟314,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Is your comment on angels a legitimate proposal or are you making a sarcastic comment? My apologies, but I cannot discern it from your text. However, if a serious proposal, could you provide a biblical reference to angels watching over dinosaurs that might support such a claim?
This is a claim by Kat Kerr. I can not offer any evidence to back up her claim. I just offer this as one possible explanation for the human like footprints. This is based on the scripture: "For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to give strong support to those whose heart is blameless toward him." The Angels are the eyes of the Lord. They watch over God's creation.

What climate do dinosaurs need?
You should have googled that question. From a Creationist perspective the Dinosaurs began to fight among themselves and they began to devour each other. This is when God decided to destroy them and this is when we have the breakup of Pangaea. First there was flooding followed by an ice age. Only the change was gradual and there were actually three extinctions before the final extinction 64 million years ago. As the dinosaurs began to die out then mammals began to radiate. The real explosion for us began around 12,000 years ago. As a dispensationalist I believe a day in the Bible is 1,000 years. So at this point in time we are very close to the beginning of the 14 day. This will be the 1,000 year reign of Christ when He will rule and reign here on earth for 1,000 years.

http://www.qm.qld.gov.au/microsites/dino/02-dinosaur-extinction-theories/climate-change.html

Central Mexico’s Lake Cuitzeo contains melted rock formations and nanodiamonds that suggest a comet impacted Earth around 12,900 years ago, scientists say. - See more at: http://www.space.com/14793-comet-earth-impact-younger-dryas.html#sthash.gDAC7xOp.dpuf

"Some people even believe that the sky was red back then and not blue as it is today."
What is the relevance?
Maybe none for you. There is a reason why the sky is blue and the ocean is blue. If you do any photography we are photographing light so it helps to understand a little bit of what light is all about. One of the leading experts on under water photography was an eye doctor. Actually photography was his hobby but he stated to make so much money off of his photography that this became his full time job.

If you want to look into Madagascar then you may want to check out this link about the Lemur.

http://www.irinnews.org/report/81980/madagascar-lemur-virus-gives-clues-to-evolution-of-hiv

Even some people consider this to be the missing link:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/05/090519-missing-link-found.html
 
Upvote 0

Astrophile

Newbie
Aug 30, 2013
2,280
1,525
76
England
✟233,873.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Widowed
I appreciate the input here. However, the overall image we observe from pretty much around the world, have to do with apparent sightings of creatures that are similar to dinosaurs, without flight, and without fire (although that would be an interesting, separate thread). The meaning of my post on the etymology of the word "dragon" had to do with the understanding of people in history, and what they termed these kinds of creatures to be.
I should have mentioned that in the preface (page 7) of Exodus to Arthur, Mike Baillie acknowledges the earlier ideas of William Comyns Beaumont (1873-1956), the author of The Mysterious Comet, The Riddle of Prehistoric Britain, and The Riddle of the Earth.

Baillie says, 'Mixed in with many completely crazy ideas, ... Beaumont correctly identified comets as a major hazard; he suggested that the dragon image was the description of a fireball, and that diseases come from space'.
 
Upvote 0

Papias

Listening to TW4
Dec 22, 2005
3,967
985
58
✟57,276.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I appreciate the input here. However, .....


jfr, welcome back! I see that you didn't respond to the last post in our discussion - which was post #468. Here it is again for your convenience.

You are explaining away the evidence that supports my side without really even considering it. No offense to you personally, really, (we are just beginning to have a civil dialogue) but this is what I repeatedly encounter in these threads and on this forum.

No, I'm simply asking you to be consistent - and pointing out places where you are not being consistent.

There are only two main points to our discussion from our last few posts. These are:

1. Using ancient legends fairly. You ask that ancient stories about dragons be counted as evidence for dinosaurs, yet refuse to count similar ancient stories about other things as evidence. Specifically, each of these has ancient stories that are equally or more ubiquitous, yet you refuse to argue that they too are real:

  • A. Flying people
  • B. Flying horses
  • C. people healed by gods
  • etc.
Related to those, I had posted:

Are you kidding me? There are, in your words, "documented" cases of flying horses in cultures around the world, including from India, China, the Korean peninsula, the middle east, the mediterranean, Europe, Native Americans, and so on. Some of these flying horses include the tulpar, the uchchaihshravas, the vapushah patamgah, the cholllima, the kanthaka, pegasi, the al-burq, Johano-ai's horses, sleipnir, and more. the Add to this the many horse fossils found (since wings are light and don't fossilize well), and everyone agrees that these are contemporaneous with humans. There is a much stronger case for flying horses than there is for dinosaurs and humans coexisting - no decorated flower motifs are needed.

Similarly, the Mormon plates are better documented than ancient dinosaur sightings - being sworn to by 11 witnesses - yet you refuse to admit that as better evidence. Here is our exchange on that:

Papias wrote:
*sigh* Did you read the pdf you posted? It's not even about the mormon plates. It's about other "artifacts". In fact, it's written by the FAIR lds organization, who claim the mormon plates are real, and the article is written to show that they critically look at evidence and reject frauds (hence the plates aren't frauds). You are posting evidence against your own claims.

JF wrote:
What? Did you read pages 6-10 or just look at the heading and make your decision? If you are referring to the Padilla Plates:

"The Padilla plates have even more text that appears very similar to the Anthon transcript. They all really do look like evidence for the Book of Mormon. The problem is that they only look like evidence for the Book of Mormon when one does not look too closely, or if one refuses to accept the verdict of those who are trained in the fields that can tell us whether or not such artifacts are legitimate. These are not... These forgeries are too good to be true."

Page 10 of the text I attached to my post.

Papias, c'mon...
Here you cut out the text that says that the padilla plates are false, while the Book of Mormon (transcribed from the original Mormon plates given by the angel Moron) is real. Here is the whole quote from page 10:

"The Padilla plates have even more text that appears very similar to the Anthon transcript. They all really do look like evidence for the Book of Mormon. The problem is that they only look like evidence for the Book of Mormon when one does not look too closely, or if one refuses to accept the verdict of those who are trained in the fields that can tell us whether or not such artifacts are legitimate. These are not.

The Book of Mormon is itself true. These forgeries are too good to be true."
Help me out here - I'm trying to avoid suggesting that this removal of "The book of Mormon is itself true" is quote-mining.

The second main point is:

2. That the dating methods are reliable, and show that dinosaurs and humans never co-existed.

From that:

"why do the various dating methods (including C14, K-Ar, varves, dendrochronology, ice cores, obsidian, protein racecimization, speleotherms, superposition, geologic event dating, geomagnetic polarity, Pb/U, association, Rb/St, and literally dozens of others), agree with each other when more than one can be used on the same sample?"
If methods are wrong, they'll give wrong answers. It seems odd to suggest that they'll "just happen" to all give the same "wrong" answer, again and again over hundreds of samples and thousands of tests."

Basically, if you are pointing to fossils as evidence of dinosaurs coexisting with humans, that "evidence" says the exact opposite, because dinosaur fossils are all much too old for your claim.

Perhaps referring to these two main topics - 1. the use of ancient stories, and 2 - the fossil evidence - will make this an easier discussion? After all, the fossil evidence better supports the idea of people seeing flying horses, since there are thousands of examples of horse fossils contemporaneous with humans, just as there are thousands of fossils of humans who have been healed - while there are zero fossils of dinosaurs that are contemporaneous with humans.

Best-

Papias
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟155,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
I did no such thing. There's nothing cataclysmic about, say, falling into a tar pit. There's nothing cataclysmic about dying on the sea floor and having your remains gradually covered. There's nothing inherently cataclysmic about dying in a localized flood and having your remains immediately covered over by silt at a river delta.

Oh please, the dying in a localized flood is such an old tired excuse - since that same excuse is used for almost every single fossil they find. And then we should have no problems with finding animals in the process of fossilization, since in the last 6,000 years I am sure we have had many localized floods. But then I asked for an example and you failed to give any because none exist. As I said - if it happened that way then, there should be no problem with it happening that way now........... And since tar pits are few and far between........

You just don't want to admit it must happen by cataclysmic events. Gradually covered also doesn't cover it.

http://www.fossilmuseum.net/fossilrecord/fossilization/fossilization.htm

"The remains of an organism that survive natural biological and physical processes must then become quickly buried by sediments... Catastrophic burial with a rapid influx of sediment is necessary to preserve delicate complete animals such as crinoids or starfish."

So according to your claim we should be able to dig down a few feet in the ocean and find evidence of fossilization occurring. Since if dying on the seabead and being covered by slow sediment drift is your explanation - it should suffice today as well. The sad part is you can find not one example that bears out this hypothesis. But you'll claim it as fact anyways.


There's no contradiction here. For millions of years, it's happened the creatures die in ways that makes their skeletons inaccessible to large predators, air, mold, and the like, allowing for some form of fossilization.

Then show me any animals in the last 6,000 years undergoing fossilization? If it happened as you claim that way then - it should be happening that way today.


Again, you miss the point: if it was buried in the last 6,000 years, it's probably not mineralized yet. These things take time, and it's also usually quite hard to find corpses completely buried in sediment at the bottom of a riverbed, and not particularly productive to go hunting for them.

No, you miss the point. Go and dig in any riverbed and you will find NO animal remains. You know this as well as I do. I asked for any showing signs the fossilization process is beginning, I did not ask you to show me fossilized animals. You will find none - absolutely zero.

But let's take a look at your competing hypothesis, that these things are only possible via a cataclysmic flood. Question - why don't we find fossils jumbled throughout rock layers? Why is it that we never find, say, a bunny fossil below a trilobite fossil in the geologic column? How does a single flood event produce multiple distinct sedimentary layers, including coral, chalk, limestone, and igneous layers? How can it produce unconformities, and if such a flood was necessary to bury fossils, how come we can find fossils both below and above such unconformities?

Because bunny's did not exist then. Don't try to put your incorrect interpretation of scripture off onto me.

And the earth "became - hayah" desolate and waste. And darkness {became} upon.....

Just because you also want to use an incorrect interpretation to prove young earth believers wrong, does not make the interpretation correct.

Hayah does not mean "was" or the condition it existed in. It means to become, or the condition it ended up in.

hayah: to fall out, come to pass, become, be


The earth was already flourishing with life prior to man. Life that has went extinct in several eras, after which all new forms of life arose. Then the last catastrophe struck.

In the oldest manuscripts there is a mark of a pause between the first and second verse. It may be as science tells us, that this globe existed millions of years ago; that it has been the habitation of numerous and varied races of animated beings; and that it has undergone many great destructions and creations before it was brought into its present state: none of these views are in the least discordant with the statement of the inspired historian, that “in beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

In twenty places in this chapter the verb “was” is used as the equivalent to “became”. The true meaning of the Hebrew word "hayah". "to fall out, come to pass, become, be"

The Earth "became" desolate and waste, (tohu wa bohu - used nowhere else together in the Bible except this verse and two other places, and always when used elsewhere point to a once flourishing condition that was then laid waste - Gen 1:2; Isa. 34:11; Jer. 4:23) and darkness overspread the Earth. At this time (man) did not exist prior, nor any of the current animals found with skeletons of modern man, except in a few rare cases as in one or two classes of reptiles and fish that survived this worldwide cataclysm, and the untold number before, told of before science had ever thought of such a thing as possible.

Comet, meteor? Who knows? It is quite accurate when interpreted properly. After unknown periods of time another act of creation occurred, this time with a notable exception, one worth bothering to describe in more detail, unlike any others that may have occurred previously. But then a new creation happened, the waters were separated from the waters (evaporation). "Let there be light...divided the light from the darkness". In Hebrew literally: " divided between the light and between darkness." Where all had previously been darkness due to the destruction, the addition of heat began separating the clouds. The events in the entire chapter are described as if one's viewpoint is from the earth.

It must be noted that the word 'ohr is not the same word used in verse 14 signifying "lights," or "luminaries," ma-'ohr; rather, it signifies "heat." the effect, which immediately followed is described in the name Day, which in Hebrew signifies "warmth."

So heat began penetrating into the depths after God acted, separating the clouds, letting light into the depths, the clouds had been so low as to contact the Earth itself. But heat allowed evaporation and the waters above were separated from the waters below and dry land appeared.

The earth was already flourishing with life prior to man. Life that has went extinct in several eras, after which all new forms of life arose. Then the last catastrophe struck.

In the oldest manuscripts there is a mark of a pause between the first and second verse. It may be as science tells us, that this globe existed millions of years ago; that it has been the habitation of numerous and varied races of animated beings; and that it has undergone many great destructions and creations before it was brought into its present state: none of these views are in the least discordant with the statement of the inspired historian, that “in beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

In twenty places in this chapter the verb “was” is used as the equivalent to “became”. The true meaning of the Hebrew word "hayah". "to fall out, come to pass, become, be"

The Earth "became" desolate and waste, (tohu wa bohu - used nowhere else together in the Bible except this verse and two other places, and always when used elsewhere point to a once flourishing condition that was then laid waste - Gen 1:2; Isa. 34:11; Jer. 4:23) and darkness overspread the Earth. At this time (man) did not exist prior, nor any of the current animals found with skeletons of modern man, except in a few rare cases as in one or two classes of reptiles and fish that survived this worldwide cataclysm, and the untold number before, told of before science had ever thought of such a thing as possible.

Comet, meteor? Who knows? It is quite accurate when interpreted properly. After unknown periods of time another act of creation occurred, this time with a notable exception, one worth bothering to describe in more detail, unlike any others that may have occurred previously. But then a new creation happened, the waters were separated from the waters (evaporation). "Let there be light...divided the light from the darkness". In Hebrew literally: " divided between the light and between darkness." Where all had previously been darkness due to the destruction, the addition of heat began separating the clouds. The events in the entire chapter are described as if one's viewpoint is from the earth.

It must be noted that the word 'ohr is not the same word used in verse 14 signifying "lights," or "luminaries," ma-'ohr; rather, it signifies "heat." the effect, which immediately followed is described in the name Day, which in Hebrew signifies "warmth."

So heat began penetrating into the depths after God acted, separating the clouds, letting light into the depths, the clouds had been so low as to contact the Earth itself. But heat allowed evaporation and the waters above were separated from the waters below and dry land appeared.

Every past form of life sprang from nowhere, lived for a time, different breeds of that kind prospering, then went extinct due to cataclysmic actions. In its place all new life once again sprang up, to again repeat the cycle. The Bible just affirms this, when it told you of the earth becoming desolate and waste, and the darkness that became upon it, encompassing it around. Hence the dinosaurs died out. It then described the "sixth" such event, when man himself was created.

This is the confusion between the two chapters of genesis. The animals created in the 5th creation were the dinosaurs - they went extinct. The animals created in the sixth creation along with man were mammals.

There have been 5 - count them, 5 major extinction events. Mankind and the animals with him were created "after" this 5th extinction event, the 6th creative act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_event

Soon there will be a sixth destruction and a seventh and final creation in which all new forms of life will also arise - including an animal described as a lion that eats straw. 6 for the sixth creative act, 6 for mankind and 6 for the sixth destruction brought about by Satan. Only after this world is destroyed for the sixth time will the seventh and final creation begin again. The flood does not count in this destructive sequence because all of the animals that were alive before it - were brought through it. No new creative acts were required to repopulate the earth. The animals then alive were able to repopulate the earth, unlike the other times when all new life had to be created.


First you incorrectly assume I believe the dinosaurs died out in Noah's Flood - which they did not. They died out in the flood that made the earth desolate and waste. Because Young Earth believers also misinterpret scripture, they also can not make their beliefs of what they think scripture says fit reality. All because they refuse to translate correctly the second word of the second verse of the Bible - and just like you who also refuses to correct their interpretation and misuse of that word, because if you used the proper meaning your argument becomes void and meaningless. But then you have never bothered to research the original words to even see if their interpretation was correct to begin with - because such would not fit into your tiny little box and you would have nothing to argue against anymore.

I believe the earth is ancient, just as the Bible claims it is ancient. Man is recent - not the earth or life. But you have nothing to argue against a correct interpretation of the Hebrew Hayah, and so will refuse to consider it.[/QUOTE]
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Cadet

SO COOL
Apr 29, 2010
6,290
4,743
Munich
✟45,617.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
And then we should have no problems with finding animals in the process of fossilization

If you're not going to read my posts, I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time repeating myself, nor reading your fringe and bizarre interpretations of the bible.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
It's called decay - and is the opposite of fossilization. That's why you do not find millions of fossilized buffalo. because decay destroys even bones. In Fact you can't find any creatures undergoing the process of fossilization within the last 6,000 years. Because fossilization only occurs when there is a catastrophic event that buries them in sediments immediately or soon after death, before decay begins to set in.

Are you saying that there hasn't been catastrophic geologic events in the last 6,000 years?

Like . . . oh, I don't know. . . volcanic lahars?

pinatubo-1992-lahar-bacolor-793570.jpg


Or maybe those houses with their modern roof tiles, modern beams, and other modern technology were made 6,000 years ago?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

46AND2

Forty six and two are just ahead of me...
Sep 5, 2012
5,807
2,210
Vancouver, WA
✟102,103.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Oh please, the dying in a localized flood is such an old tired excuse - since that same excuse is used for almost every single fossil they find. And then we should have no problems with finding animals in the process of fossilization, since in the last 6,000 years I am sure we have had many localized floods. But then I asked for an example and you failed to give any because none exist. As I said - if it happened that way then, there should be no problem with it happening that way now........... And since tar pits are few and far between........

You just don't want to admit it must happen by cataclysmic events. Gradually covered also doesn't cover it.

http://www.fossilmuseum.net/fossilrecord/fossilization/fossilization.htm

"The remains of an organism that survive natural biological and physical processes must then become quickly buried by sediments... Catastrophic burial with a rapid influx of sediment is necessary to preserve delicate complete animals such as crinoids or starfish."

So according to your claim we should be able to dig down a few feet in the ocean and find evidence of fossilization occurring. Since if dying on the seabead and being covered by slow sediment drift is your explanation - it should suffice today as well. The sad part is you can find not one example that bears out this hypothesis. But you'll claim it as fact anyways.




Then show me any animals in the last 6,000 years undergoing fossilization? If it happened as you claim that way then - it should be happening that way today.




No, you miss the point. Go and dig in any riverbed and you will find NO animal remains. You know this as well as I do. I asked for any showing signs the fossilization process is beginning, I did not ask you to show me fossilized animals. You will find none - absolutely zero.



Because bunny's did not exist then. Don't try to put your incorrect interpretation of scripture off onto me.

And the earth "became - hayah" desolate and waste. And darkness {became} upon.....

Just because you also want to use an incorrect interpretation to prove young earth believers wrong, does not make the interpretation correct.

Hayah does not mean "was" or the condition it existed in. It means to become, or the condition it ended up in.

hayah: to fall out, come to pass, become, be


The earth was already flourishing with life prior to man. Life that has went extinct in several eras, after which all new forms of life arose. Then the last catastrophe struck.

In the oldest manuscripts there is a mark of a pause between the first and second verse. It may be as science tells us, that this globe existed millions of years ago; that it has been the habitation of numerous and varied races of animated beings; and that it has undergone many great destructions and creations before it was brought into its present state: none of these views are in the least discordant with the statement of the inspired historian, that “in beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

In twenty places in this chapter the verb “was” is used as the equivalent to “became”. The true meaning of the Hebrew word "hayah". "to fall out, come to pass, become, be"

The Earth "became" desolate and waste, (tohu wa bohu - used nowhere else together in the Bible except this verse and two other places, and always when used elsewhere point to a once flourishing condition that was then laid waste - Gen 1:2; Isa. 34:11; Jer. 4:23) and darkness overspread the Earth. At this time (man) did not exist prior, nor any of the current animals found with skeletons of modern man, except in a few rare cases as in one or two classes of reptiles and fish that survived this worldwide cataclysm, and the untold number before, told of before science had ever thought of such a thing as possible.

Comet, meteor? Who knows? It is quite accurate when interpreted properly. After unknown periods of time another act of creation occurred, this time with a notable exception, one worth bothering to describe in more detail, unlike any others that may have occurred previously. But then a new creation happened, the waters were separated from the waters (evaporation). "Let there be light...divided the light from the darkness". In Hebrew literally: " divided between the light and between darkness." Where all had previously been darkness due to the destruction, the addition of heat began separating the clouds. The events in the entire chapter are described as if one's viewpoint is from the earth.

It must be noted that the word 'ohr is not the same word used in verse 14 signifying "lights," or "luminaries," ma-'ohr; rather, it signifies "heat." the effect, which immediately followed is described in the name Day, which in Hebrew signifies "warmth."

So heat began penetrating into the depths after God acted, separating the clouds, letting light into the depths, the clouds had been so low as to contact the Earth itself. But heat allowed evaporation and the waters above were separated from the waters below and dry land appeared.

The earth was already flourishing with life prior to man. Life that has went extinct in several eras, after which all new forms of life arose. Then the last catastrophe struck.

In the oldest manuscripts there is a mark of a pause between the first and second verse. It may be as science tells us, that this globe existed millions of years ago; that it has been the habitation of numerous and varied races of animated beings; and that it has undergone many great destructions and creations before it was brought into its present state: none of these views are in the least discordant with the statement of the inspired historian, that “in beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

In twenty places in this chapter the verb “was” is used as the equivalent to “became”. The true meaning of the Hebrew word "hayah". "to fall out, come to pass, become, be"

The Earth "became" desolate and waste, (tohu wa bohu - used nowhere else together in the Bible except this verse and two other places, and always when used elsewhere point to a once flourishing condition that was then laid waste - Gen 1:2; Isa. 34:11; Jer. 4:23) and darkness overspread the Earth. At this time (man) did not exist prior, nor any of the current animals found with skeletons of modern man, except in a few rare cases as in one or two classes of reptiles and fish that survived this worldwide cataclysm, and the untold number before, told of before science had ever thought of such a thing as possible.

Comet, meteor? Who knows? It is quite accurate when interpreted properly. After unknown periods of time another act of creation occurred, this time with a notable exception, one worth bothering to describe in more detail, unlike any others that may have occurred previously. But then a new creation happened, the waters were separated from the waters (evaporation). "Let there be light...divided the light from the darkness". In Hebrew literally: " divided between the light and between darkness." Where all had previously been darkness due to the destruction, the addition of heat began separating the clouds. The events in the entire chapter are described as if one's viewpoint is from the earth.

It must be noted that the word 'ohr is not the same word used in verse 14 signifying "lights," or "luminaries," ma-'ohr; rather, it signifies "heat." the effect, which immediately followed is described in the name Day, which in Hebrew signifies "warmth."

So heat began penetrating into the depths after God acted, separating the clouds, letting light into the depths, the clouds had been so low as to contact the Earth itself. But heat allowed evaporation and the waters above were separated from the waters below and dry land appeared.

Every past form of life sprang from nowhere, lived for a time, different breeds of that kind prospering, then went extinct due to cataclysmic actions. In its place all new life once again sprang up, to again repeat the cycle. The Bible just affirms this, when it told you of the earth becoming desolate and waste, and the darkness that became upon it, encompassing it around. Hence the dinosaurs died out. It then described the "sixth" such event, when man himself was created.

This is the confusion between the two chapters of genesis. The animals created in the 5th creation were the dinosaurs - they went extinct. The animals created in the sixth creation along with man were mammals.

There have been 5 - count them, 5 major extinction events. Mankind and the animals with him were created "after" this 5th extinction event, the 6th creative act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_event

Soon there will be a sixth destruction and a seventh and final creation in which all new forms of life will also arise - including an animal described as a lion that eats straw. 6 for the sixth creative act, 6 for mankind and 6 for the sixth destruction brought about by Satan. Only after this world is destroyed for the sixth time will the seventh and final creation begin again. The flood does not count in this destructive sequence because all of the animals that were alive before it - were brought through it. No new creative acts were required to repopulate the earth. The animals then alive were able to repopulate the earth, unlike the other times when all new life had to be created.


First you incorrectly assume I believe the dinosaurs died out in Noah's Flood - which they did not. They died out in the flood that made the earth desolate and waste. Because Young Earth believers also misinterpret scripture, they also can not make their beliefs of what they think scripture says fit reality. All because they refuse to translate correctly the second word of the second verse of the Bible - and just like you who also refuses to correct their interpretation and misuse of that word, because if you used the proper meaning your argument becomes void and meaningless. But then you have never bothered to research the original words to even see if their interpretation was correct to begin with - because such would not fit into your tiny little box and you would have nothing to argue against anymore.

I believe the earth is ancient, just as the Bible claims it is ancient. Man is recent - not the earth or life. But you have nothing to argue against a correct interpretation of the Hebrew Hayah, and so will refuse to consider it.

I'm guessing you haven't actually done a search for papers on partially fossilized remains. If you had, you'd find yourself plenty of examples.
 
Upvote 0