High Day

[muffler dragon]

Due to a request of Suffolk Sean, I thought I would take a small amount of time to start a thread.

I'm sure there are some on here who will vehemently disagree with what I am about to purport. If you want to disagree, then that is fine. However, understand that this should and will be a congenial and polite discussion/debate/conversation.

I am bringing it to this forum so that the person who asked me doesn't have to go far to find it.

Therefore, let's begin.

Premise: The actual day of the crucifixion of Y'shua (Jesus) was Wednesday.

Scriptural Considerations:

John 19
The Crucifixion

16 So he then (23) handed Him over to them to be crucified.
17 (24) They took Jesus, therefore, and He went out, (25) bearing His own cross, to the place called (26) the Place of a Skull, which is called (27) in Hebrew, Golgotha.
18 There they crucified Him, and with Him (28) two other men, one on either side, and Jesus in between.
19 Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It was written, "(29) JESUS THE NAZARENE, (30) THE KING OF THE JEWS."
20 Therefore many of the Jews read this inscription, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written (31) in Hebrew, Latin and in Greek.
21 So the chief priests of the Jews were saying to Pilate, "Do not write, '(32) The King of the Jews'; but that He said, 'I am (33) King of the Jews.'"
22 Pilate answered, "(34) What I have written I have written."
23 Then (35) the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His outer garments and made (36) four parts, a part to every soldier and also the [3] tunic; now the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece.
24 So they said to one another, "(37) Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, to decide whose it shall be"; (38) this was to fulfill the Scripture: "THEY (39) DIVIDED MY OUTER GARMENTS AMONG THEM, AND FOR MY CLOTHING THEY CAST LOTS."
25 Therefore the soldiers did these things. (40) But standing by the cross of Jesus were (41) His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and (42) Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus then saw His mother, and (43) the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "(44) Woman, behold, your son!"
27 Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into (45) his own household.
28 After this, Jesus, (46) knowing that all things had already been accomplished, (47) to fulfill the Scripture, said, "(48) I am thirsty."
29 A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so (49) they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop and brought it up to His mouth.
30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "(50) It is finished!" And He bowed His head and (51) gave up His spirit.


Care of the Body of Jesus

31 Then the Jews, because it was (52) the day of preparation, so that (53) the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a (54) high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was (55) crucified with Him;
33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately (56) blood and water came out.
35 And he who has seen has (57) testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe.
36 For these things came to pass (58) to fulfill the Scripture, "(59) NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN."
37 And again another Scripture says, "(60) THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."
38 (61) After these things Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but a (62) secret one for (63) fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus; and Pilate granted permission. So he came and took away His body.
39 (64) Nicodemus, who had first come to Him by night, also came, (65) bringing a mixture of (66) myrrh and aloes, about a (67) hundred pounds weight.
40 So they took the body of Jesus and (68) bound it in (69) linen wrappings with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews.
41 Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a (70) new tomb (71) in which no one had yet been laid.
42 Therefore because of the Jewish day of (72) preparation, since the tomb was (73) nearby, they laid Jesus there.

As you can see from what I have highlighted, there was a special relevance to this particular day. Not only was it Passover, but it happened during the week.

As with the majority (if not all) Jewish holidays, they are to be observed as a Sabbath (day of rest). No work is to be done. It is to be a time of family, memorial, rememberance, reflection, and so on.

So here is the breakdown, and please remember that Jewish days run from evening to evening.

Third Day of Week (Monday after sunset/Tuesday before): Day of Preparation
Fourth Day of Week (Tues after/Wed Before): Instructional 'Seder' Tues Night. Arrest. Crucifixion.
Fifth Day of Week (Wed after/Thur before): in grave
Sixth Day of Week (Thur after/Fri before): in grave
Seventh Day of Week (Fri after/Sat before): in grave (and this is the standard weekly Sabbath)
First Day of Week (Sat after/Sun before): Resurrection.

Therefore, one can see that there is no re-working of the wording. When Y'shua says that he will be in the ground for three days and three nights, he was telling the truth.

Shalom,

m.d.

 

[Father Rick]

m.d.

I completely agree with you on this point, and have taught it that way for many years.

Some messianics teach that it was actually Thursday, as some Jews count any portion of a day as a full day and since He died a little before sundown then they can make the day count work that way. Personally I find that a little bit of a stretch though.

(note-- for those not aware, the Jewish calendar counts days as starting at sundown, not midnight or morning-- this is why the Sabbath starts at sundown of Friday night and ends at sundown Saturday night)

It is also useful to note that due to the diaspora, there was debate as to the exact day for Passover-- in the scattering some of the calendar days had gotten messed up. Due to this, Seder (the Passover meal) was actually celebrated 2 days in a row at the time of Christ. The first night each family offered a lamb and had a family Passover. The next night was recognized as the Passover for the nation and it was then that the lamb for the nation(s) was offered in the temple. This explains how Jesus was able to celebrate Passover with His disciples and BE the Passover lamb as well. Tuesday night He was with His disciples and Wednesday evening He died for the sins of the world.

3 days in the grave --1. Wed. night/Thursday day; 2. Thurs. night/Friday day; 3.Fri. night/Saturday day.

He rose from the dead sometime Saturday night/early Sunday morning and the tomb was found empty early that morning. ALLELUIA--CHRIST IS RISEN--CHRIST IS RISEN INDEED.

This also explains why the women did not come to put spices on the body until 3 days after... remember there were multiple Sabbaths that week. He was crucified Wednesday. Thursday was a Sabbath (Passover) so they could not go into town to buy spices. Friday morning, they would have gone to get what they needed, but all of Jerusalem shuts down by noon on Friday due to the approaching Sabbath. They would not have had time to go get the spices AND take them to the grave. They had to wait until after the 2nd Sabbath (Saturday) and then gotten up early in the morning to go to the tomb.

 

[muffler dragon]

Dear Father Rick:

Your assistance and knowledge have brought even more wealth to this picture than what my thread originally showed. Thank you so very much. And moreover, I extol you for being convicted enough to minister this to those whom look to you.

Shalom,

m.d.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I have never really done a study on the 3 days, but thanks. Very interesting!

 

[Andry]

I too have taught this for many years.

Good Friday here is a statutory holiday. I like to sleep in. Drives my religious friends nuts that I don't go to the Good Friday services with them.

 

[muffler dragon]

I guess I'm disappointed that it took 29 freaking years for me to learn about it!!!



Go figure. You'd think something this easy would be in Christianity 101.

Have a pleasant weekend everyone.
Shalom,

m.d.

 

[sandman]

I also have taught that for the last 30 years……..along with the truth that four, not two, were crucified with Jesus, and that Christ never physically touched his cross {stake} until he was nailed to it………….

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
sandman

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Four were with Jesus? Explain

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I also have taught that for the last 30 years……..along with the truth that four, not two, were crucified with Jesus, and that Christ never physically touched his cross {stake} until he was nailed to it………….

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
sandman

I still see no evidence of four after looking over it. And, John 19:17

So the soldiers took charge of Jesus. Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha).

 

[sandman]

Bizzlebin Imperatoris

I will be back in my office later this evening, I will give you the scriptures then.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

sandman

 

[Macca]

I too have taught this for many years.

Good Friday here is a statutory holiday. I like to sleep in. Drives my religious friends nuts that I don't go to the Good Friday services with them.

I also have know and believed this, but find it dissappointing that tradition will often win out over truth. Most traditionalists will vehemently dissaggree.
Macca.

 

[sandman]

Bizzlebin Imperatoris

I will be back in my office later this evening, I will give you the scriptures then.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

sandman

My apologies…..

it isn’t going to be tonight …..I have had 3 hours sleep in the last two days and I am beat, so I will post tomorrow.

God bless

sandman

 

[enoch son]

It was before the foundation of the world!

 

[sandman]

Bizzlebin Imperatoris


In dealing with the subject of how many were crucified with Christ we will look at each account in the four gospels.

My intent is not to disprove what tradition teaches on the crucifixion of Christ; I have not been called to prove or disprove tradition, only to hold forth the Word

My concern is, and always will be the integrity and accuracy of the written Word. Whether we believe that Jesus Christ was crucified with two or four is not going to change your life; what changes our life is what was accomplished by Christ’s suffering death and resurrection.

As I stated I am not here to challenge tradition teachings but when traditional teachings do not line up with the God breathed Word we do not continue in error but rather line our thinking up with the Word; for as workman of the word we are accountable to rightly divide the Word of Truth

============================================================================

Both Matthew and Mark state that there were two thieves crucified with Him



Matthew 27:38

Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

Mark 15:27

And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.



Luke states that there were two malefactors



Luke 23:32

And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.



I know the obvious question is: Why would God use two different words?

The second obvious is: are the words interchangeable

The answer to the second is …no

The answer to the first is this:

The word translated thief should actually be translated into our English word robber it’s the Greek word lēstai {two robbers = duo lēstai}.

The Greeks use an entirely different word for thief’s which is kleptēs of which we get our English word kleptomaniac. A thief is one who acts in stealth, while a robber is one who openly carried out his work using violence if necessary. A thief would be punished for his crime, but not by crucificxion; while a robber would receive crucifixion if violence were used in his actions.{Just a little aside}



In Matthew 27:44 and Mark 15:32 both thief’s {robbers}reviled Jesus, but in Luke 23:39 only one of the malefactors railed on Him while the other defended Him



The following are four Greek words that are critical to understanding as we go through this record.

Duo kakourgoi = two malefactors = evil-doer {every robber is a {malefactor} evil-doer but not every malefactor {evil-doer} is a robber.



Duo lēstai = two robbers = one who devises and openly caries out his work using violence if necessary.



Allos = the ‘other’ or second of two when and where there may be more.



Heteros = the ‘other’ or second of two when and where there are only two



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Matthew 27:35-38

35: And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
36: And sitting down they watched him there;
37: And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
38: Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.



The Word states that the soldiers crucified Jesus, parted his garments, sat down and watched, and set up over his head accusation. Verse 38 says then were two thief’s {robbers} duo lēstai crucified with him.

All that takes time

Verse 44 states The thieves {duo lēstai} also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.



Mark 15:24-27

24: And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
25: And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
26: And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
27: And with him they crucify two thieves; {duo lēstai} the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.



Verse 32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they {duo lēstai} that were crucified with him reviled him.



Luke 23:32 &33

And there were also two other, malefactors, {duo kakourgoi} led with him to be put to death.
33: And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors,{duo kakourgoi} one on the right hand, and the other on the left



The two malefactors were lead with him and were crucified on either side next to our Lord Jesus Christ.



Verse 39-43

39: And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40: But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.



Matthew as well as Mark the two robbers both reviled Christ, in Luke only one of the malefactors reviling him.

The two robbers were crucified with Christ after they parted his garments. So the scene would look something like RM Christ MR

These Account in the first three Gospels gives us the time involved, the Gospel of John does not deal with time, but location.





John 19:18

Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

The word one in verse 18 appears in the KJV {and other versions} but has no corresponding Greek word in any critical Greek text {you can check this in any Greek/English interlinear} This word one has been added by translators and should be deleted.

Also the word midst should grab our attention. Grammatically you cannot have one in the midst of three. You can have one in between two, but in the midst of four, six, eight etc.



John 19:32 &33

32: Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33: But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

Now lets picture this in our minds {with four crucified} . The soldiers came to the first robber then to the malefactor which was with him…but when they came to Jesus ……

Now picture these verses {with two crucified with Him}. The soldiers come to the robber then they run around Christ and come to the other robber/malefactor….then they come to Jesus. I am not trying to make light of the crucifixion, but you can see how this would not make sense.

The word other in verse 32 is another indication of four crucified the word used here is the Greek word allos; itis used when more then two are involved.

The word heteros which is also translated other { when only two are involved} is used in Luke 23:32…. here heteros is used because only two are involved, two malefactors.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


God Bless

sandman

 

[Screamin'Eagle]

Bizzlebin Imperatoris


In dealing with the subject of how many were crucified with Christ we will look at each account in the four gospels.

My intent is not to disprove what tradition teaches on the crucifixion of Christ; I have not been called to prove or disprove tradition, only to hold forth the Word

My concern is, and always will be the integrity and accuracy of the written Word. Whether we believe that Jesus Christ was crucified with two or four is not going to change your life; what changes our life is what was accomplished by Christ’s suffering death and resurrection.

As I stated I am not here to challenge tradition teachings but when traditional teachings do not line up with the God breathed Word we do not continue in error but rather line our thinking up with the Word; for as workman of the word we are accountable to rightly divide the Word of Truth

============================================================================

Both Matthew and Mark state that there were two thieves crucified with Him



Matthew 27:38

Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

Mark 15:27

And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.



Luke states that there were two malefactors



Luke 23:32

And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.



I know the obvious question is: Why would God use two different words?

The second obvious is: are the words interchangeable

The answer to the second is …no

The answer to the first is this:

The word translated thief should actually be translated into our English word robber it’s the Greek word lēstai {two robbers = duo lēstai}.

The Greeks use an entirely different word for thief’s which is kleptēs of which we get our English word kleptomaniac. A thief is one who acts in stealth, while a robber is one who openly carried out his work using violence if necessary. A thief would be punished for his crime, but not by crucificxion; while a robber would receive crucifixion if violence were used in his actions.{Just a little aside}



In Matthew 27:44 and Mark 15:32 both thief’s {robbers}reviled Jesus, but in Luke 23:39 only one of the malefactors railed on Him while the other defended Him



The following are four Greek words that are critical to understanding as we go through this record.

Duo kakourgoi = two malefactors = evil-doer {every robber is a {malefactor} evil-doer but not every malefactor {evil-doer} is a robber.



Duo lēstai = two robbers = one who devises and openly caries out his work using violence if necessary.



Allos = the ‘other’ or second of two when and where there may be more.



Heteros = the ‘other’ or second of two when and where there are only two



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Matthew 27:35-38

35: And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
36: And sitting down they watched him there;
37: And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
38: Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.



The Word states that the soldiers crucified Jesus, parted his garments, sat down and watched, and set up over his head accusation. Verse 38 says then were two thief’s {robbers} duo lēstai crucified with him.

All that takes time

Verse 44 states The thieves {duo lēstai} also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.



Mark 15:24-27

24: And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
25: And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
26: And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
27: And with him they crucify two thieves; {duo lēstai} the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.



Verse 32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they {duo lēstai} that were crucified with him reviled him.



Luke 23:32 &33

And there were also two other, malefactors, {duo kakourgoi} led with him to be put to death.
33: And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors,{duo kakourgoi} one on the right hand, and the other on the left



The two malefactors were lead with him and were crucified on either side next to our Lord Jesus Christ.



Verse 39-43

39: And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40: But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.



Matthew as well as Mark the two robbers both reviled Christ, in Luke only one of the malefactors reviling him.

The two robbers were crucified with Christ after they parted his garments. So the scene would look something like RM Christ MR

These Account in the first three Gospels gives us the time involved, the Gospel of John does not deal with time, but location.





John 19:18

Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

The word one in verse 18 appears in the KJV {and other versions} but has no corresponding Greek word in any critical Greek text {you can check this in any Greek/English interlinear} This word one has been added by translators and should be deleted.

Also the word midst should grab our attention. Grammatically you cannot have one in the midst of three. You can have one in between two, but in the midst of four, six, eight etc.



John 19:32 &33

32: Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33: But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

Now lets picture this in our minds {with four crucified} . The soldiers came to the first robber then to the malefactor which was with him…but when they came to Jesus ……

Now picture these verses {with two crucified with Him}. The soldiers come to the robber then they run around Christ and come to the other robber/malefactor….then they come to Jesus. I am not trying to make light of the crucifixion, but you can see how this would not make sense.

The word other in verse 32 is another indication of four crucified the word used here is the Greek word allos; itis used when more then two are involved.

The word heteros which is also translated other { when only two are involved} is used in Luke 23:32…. here heteros is used because only two are involved, two malefactors.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


God Bless

sandman

that is interesting, but like you said has nothing to do with salvation so im not going to worry about it or change my mind to their were four criminals crucified with him. But nonetheless it was interesting, thanks for sharing.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Yes, intersting as well, but you are seeing a problem where there is none. The scriptures are totally in agreement with two robbers. Each writer had a different vocabulary, but yet all said the same thing. I am sure that if there were four, it would say that instead of two.

 

[Suffolk Sean]

Many thanks for the thread M.D.

Sadly I just saw it and haven't been able to add anything

 

[muffler dragon]

Many thanks for the thread M.D.

Sadly I just saw it and haven't been able to add anything

You're welcome. Hopefully it will prove fruitful.

m.d.

 

[sandman]

Bizzlebin Imperatoris




I have a two-part question for you

Do you believe in the trinity, if so {very simply} why?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bless
sandman

 

[muffler dragon]

No offense intended, Sandman and Bizzlebin, but your discussion on the two versus four of thieves really doesn't have any thing to do with this High Day thread. Would you mind PM-ing about it or opening another thread?

Thanks,

m.d.