Heresy

[Servus Iesu]

I have a few questions which I would like some Orthodox perspectives on.

-What is heresy? How is it defined by the Orthodox and how is one determined to be a heretic?

-Are the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary heretical (to the Orthodox)?

-Is the doctrine of hereditary original sin (id est the guilt of Adam's sin is common to all of unregenerate humanity) heretical?

-If an Orthodox Christian happened to be an Augustinian (bear with me here) and as a result also believed the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, would they be a heretic?

-Was St. Augustine a heretic?

Thank you in advance for your thoughtful replies.

Ryan

 

[Matrona]

I can't really help you at the moment but off the top of my head, I will tell you that many RC beliefs were declared to be anathema at the Pan-Orthodox Synod of 1583 held in Jerusalem. I'll see if I can find the text for you but one thing I remember for certain is that belief in a Purgatory was declared anathema there.

 

[ExOrienteLux]

As far as St. Augustine goes, he's one of ours as well. Not because of his theology, but because of his repentance.

+IC XC NIKA+
-Philip.

 

[Matrona]

I missed this before, but I should explain that the Assumption of Mary AFTER HER DEATH is NOT HERETICAL. Many Orthodox believe in it. But it is not dogma, and we definitely, DEFINITELY believe that she died.

 

[Photini]

Just a question out of curiousity...could the belief that the Theotokos was assumed into Heaven before she died really be considered heresy, since it really has beans to do with our salvation?

By the way, I heard that the tradition is that after her death, she was seen ascending into Heaven by St John, and her belt fell as she was ascending. This belt is the only relic we have of the Theotokos and is at one of the monasteries on Mt. Athos.

 

[pilgrimtim]

your reference alot of Doctrines of the Schismatic and heretical group under the guidance of the usurper of Saint Peter.
the Immaculate Conception of the Ever Virgin Theotokos Mary.
the Bodliy Assumption of her BODY to heaven
Are unknown in Orthodoxy since the Orthodox do not proclaim truth where the Holy Spirit has not revealed it? So it may be the teaching are truth but the greater issue it heretical presumption of proclaim these two doctrines.
Augustine's writing are valuable understood in their proper context. Just as writing of Origen and Tertelius are valuable and can be useful for understand of certain Orthodox Doctrines. But All three have flaws that must be considered when reading them. The Church contemporary to Augustine did not fully comment of Augustine writing at the time. The cause for this the fact that Augustine wrote in latin and most church scholars wrote in Greek. Greek was the language of the Church at the time.
The primary reason for the development in the West of the Immaculate Conception idea is the heretical idea of Inherited guilty and unholiness of Adam. Without the Idea of western "original sin" there is no need for an Immaculate Conception. But then the idea could "unacademically" furthered that Yes Mary was concieved without the stain of Original Sin but that is no surprise since all people are born without the stain of Original Sin.
A person cannot be a truly Orthodox believer and be Augustinian also since the rites of Chrismation for adults "pre-baptised" call them to renounce this erroneous teaching of the West. True people can call themselves Orthodox but that does not mean the are faithful Orthodox people

 

[Matrona]

Just a question out of curiousity...could the belief that the Theotokos was assumed into Heaven before she died really be considered heresy, since it really has beans to do with our salvation?

I don't think so, because the Dormition is one of the major feast days of the Church.

 

[InnerPhyre]

your reference alot of Doctrines of the Schismatic and heretical group under the guidance of the usurper of Saint Peter.

Whew that's a big sentence to swallow Seriously though, interesting post. Many people seem to forget that the writings of saints are valuable, but are not scripture.

 

[Eusebios]

To again point out one common misconception. We DO believe in the bodily assumption of the Most Holy Theotokos.(after a natural death) It is in fact one of the 12 Great feasts of the Orthodox faith, celebrated on August 15th I do not understand why there is so much confusion on this subject.
In Xp,
Eusebios.

 

[Photini]

I don't think so, because the Dormition is one of the major feast days of the Church.

I'm talking about the Assumption...the belief that she did not die before her assumption.

 

[Matrona]

I'm talking about the Assumption...the belief that she did not die before her assumption.

I know, but since the Dormition is the feast day, and dormition means death but doesn't necessarily imply bodily assumption before or after, that's why I said what I said.

 

[Eusebios]

Assumption or Dormition are often used interchangeably. The Orthodox belief is that the Theotokos reposed and was then assumed, body and soul to heaven.
In Xp,
Eusebios.

 

[Photini]

I know, but since the Dormition is the feast day, and dormition means death but doesn't necessarily imply bodily assumption before or after, that's why I said what I said.

okie dokie

 

[choirfiend]

And I believe it too--otherwise why wouldn't be venerating her relics? but, it's not doctrine, so if somehow you found it impossible to believe (which I dont, because I think she's got her transformed body in heaven as God tells us we'll have after the judgment) it's still ok. But do consider looking into it more

 

[Servus Iesu]

I missed this before, but I should explain that the Assumption of Mary AFTER HER DEATH is NOT HERETICAL. Many Orthodox believe in it. But it is not dogma, and we definitely, DEFINITELY believe that she died.

The Roman Church does not say that Mary was assumed while she still lived. Personally, I believe that Mary died because I know that Jesus died. If Jesus and Mary lived in perfect solidarity in the work of salvation then it would be fitting for Mary to die in Jesus and to be raised in Him as well.

I guess we can say that this is not a significant difference between us then.

 

[Servus Iesu]

To again point out one common misconception. We DO believe in the bodily assumption of the Most Holy Theotokos.(after a natural death) It is in fact one of the 12 Great feasts of the Orthodox faith, celebrated on August 15th I do not understand why there is so much confusion on this subject.
In Xp,
Eusebios.

I apologize for my ignorance. Now I have been edified. As I said before, the RC never said that Mary did not die. The definition of the Assumption proclaimed by Pope Pius XII (of blessed memory) is that Mary was taken body and soul into heaven "at the completion of her earthly life".

As I said before, I firmly believe that she did die because it would be fitting for her to die since her Son also died.

 

[Servus Iesu]

your reference alot of Doctrines of the Schismatic and heretical group under the guidance of the usurper of Saint Peter.
the Immaculate Conception of the Ever Virgin Theotokos Mary.
the Bodliy Assumption of her BODY to heaven
Are unknown in Orthodoxy since the Orthodox do not proclaim truth where the Holy Spirit has not revealed it?

You say that the Holy Spirit has not revealed it, but we say that the Spirit has. The above is simply rhetoric. I am told that Orthodox do believe in the post-mortum Assumption of the Theotokos.

So it may be the teaching are truth but the greater issue it heretical presumption of proclaim these two doctrines.

So your issue is not so much with whether they are true but the fact that the Pope had the gall to say they were true?

Augustine's writing are valuable understood in their proper context. Just as writing of Origen and Tertelius are valuable and can be useful for understand of certain Orthodox Doctrines. But All three have flaws that must be considered when reading them.

That may be true from an Orthodox perspective, but there is a problem here. Tertullian and Origen were heretics and it is basically accepted by all (RC and EO) now that they were heretics. They were never canonized and neither is known as a saint. Augustine is called a saint by both the RC and EO as far as I know.

Was St. Augustine a heretic or not? By grouping him with Tertullian and Origen you seem to be saying that he was.

The Church contemporary to Augustine did not fully comment of Augustine writing at the time. The cause for this the fact that Augustine wrote in latin and most church scholars wrote in Greek. Greek was the language of the Church at the time.

What about the Latin Fathers though? St. Augustine was a contemporary of St. Ambrose and others.

The primary reason for the development in the West of the Immaculate Conception idea is the heretical idea of Inherited guilty and unholiness of Adam.

That is quite a statement. It is heresy to say that Adam was unholy after the fall? How is that heresy? I know that the EO do not believe anyone inherited Adam's guilt, but surely he bore his own guilt!

Also, if inherited guilt from original sin is heresy, then it must also be true that St. Augustine was a heretic. How can Augustine be a saint if he was a teacher of pernicious heresy (no matter how virtuous he may have been)?

Without the Idea of western "original sin" there is no need for an Immaculate Conception. But then the idea could "unacademically" furthered that Yes Mary was concieved without the stain of Original Sin but that is no surprise since all people are born without the stain of Original Sin.
A person cannot be a truly Orthodox believer and be Augustinian also since the rites of Chrismation for adults "pre-baptised" call them to renounce this erroneous teaching of the West. True people can call themselves Orthodox but that does not mean the are faithful Orthodox people

How can the Orthodox call Augustine a saint if he was heterodox?

 

[MariaRegina]

I'm talking about the Assumption...the belief that she did not die before her assumption.

Catholics can choose to believe that she died and then was assumed into heaven about 3 days later when St. Thomas finally arrived

And note: I was taught this as a Catholic.

Or they can believe that Mary didn't die but was taken (assumed) bodily into heaven.

The Orthodox believe that Mary fell asleep in the Lord, was buried, and when they opened her tomb, her immaculate body was not there.

Thanks Reader Eusebios for providing that link.

 

[Athonite]

That may be true from an Orthodox perspective, but there is a problem here. Tertullian and Origen were heretics and it is basically accepted by all (RC and EO) now that they were heretics. They were never canonized and neither is known as a saint. Augustine is called a saint by both the RC and EO as far as I know.

Bishop Augustine of Hippo is not a Saint of the Orthodox Church. You may hear him called Blessed Augustine, but never Saint Augustine.

But calling him a heretic is a stretch. He simply erred as it is human to do. Personally, I think his best work was his Confessions.

 

[choirfiend]

Bishop Augustine of Hippo is not a Saint of the Orthodox Church. You may hear him called Blessed Augustine, but never Saint Augustine.

But calling him a heretic is a stretch. He simply erred as it is human to do. Personally, I think his best work was his Confessions.

A simple search will reveal that Orthodox Churches all over the place call St. Augustine St. Augustine. We don't have any classification of "blessedness" on the way to sainthood as does the RCC, so in effect there is no difference in calling St. Augustine a saint or referring to him as Blessed Augustine or Augustine of Blessed Memory. Augustine is, and has been, a saint in the Orthodox and Catholic Churches.