Help Me Connect the Dots

[Walter Kovacs]

So belief isn't a wager, but you can move towards belief by a wager, that's definitely an idea which appeals to myself. The concept of trying something as a wager. Though I wonder would that contradict what God told us about not testing him? I'm not, as you a know a Christian so perhaps I'm misunderstanding.

That particular portion of Scripture refers to foolishly testing God - i.e, 'God if you're there, you'll catch me if I jump off this building!!' It basically means don't be an idiot - lots of Scripture boils down to that meaning


[/QUOTE]And thank you I've had a lovely Christmas Break thus far. I hope you can say the same. [/QUOTE]

Glad to hear it - and happy to say that I have as well. Here's to a new year and more good conversation

 

[Iamblichus]

First I'd like to thank you very much for both replying and sharing a bit about yourself. Its a pleasure both to meet you and to learn from you.

The the second thing that I really want to say is a huge thank you for the extended metaphor narrative you wrote with the turtles, and your extending it to help explain God's love and his plan, it helped a lot with rationalizing some elements of God that I was slightly hazy on, and overall was very compelling and helpful to my search for knowledge!

Yes, as a biology student, I had to conclude there was a greater being. It could not work so well if there was not a master plan. The form of our genetic structure alone is proof enough for me. And then there's the way life is created in the womb. How could that be without a greater being in control of the creation?


Once you are willing to accept some things on face value (i.e. the experiment needs to be completed because we need to see the actual pitre dish results to see if the theory works), then you begin to be a bit confused. This is normal. (Who in their right mind would ever consider that a mold would save lives or that penicillin--a miracle--would come from a mold or that it could be put into a syringe? Why not just use leeches to get rid of illness?)

What evidence? Every single day, you get up to normalcy. If you concluded that the world is chaos (which would be my conclusion if I didn't believe in God), then it would make sense that when you got up one day, the sunset was happening. Maybe the sunset was green and not a lightening of the sky as the sun rose but a darkness that you could touch like fog. In fact, maybe the sun wouldn't rise at all. Maybe the earth would rise.

Do you see my point? We see his faithfulness renewed every day.

I personally think a loving God creates normalcy. A crazy, mean, unloving God would create chaos IMHO.

Does that work for you?

It's humorous I've discussed order and chaos, how the very idea of creation is the ordering of the universe, and host of other similar topics in class. Yet it never really occurred to me to consider order in a practical sense in the world around me. It certainly makes a lot of sense to look at it as being the work of a divine being. One who cares greatly about the world. (That or is OCD )

I agree the complexity of many biological systems is one of the most compelling pieces of evidence.

Fascinating. I never considered this. What a great thinking mind you've developed. This comment I will not easily forget.

Thank you for the compliment.

This is what I did not like about Plato and gave him up almost immediately. For me, if I only was able to focus on the forms, then I would necessarily only accept the present. There could be no past and no future. I think that we can focus on all three, but I believe that ability is created once we accept God's knowledge. He opens our minds to incredible extensions that I could not see without God's guidance.


You may not yet see, but yours is an incomplete way of thinking. It is not wrong. And it makes complete sense, and it is your comfort zone. It is a way you have been able to explain the world. It is reason to you.

But God is so far away from our so very miniscule, finite reasoning, that we cannot understand Him without taking into account most of the world's knowledge. And who can do that? Therefore, we need Him to guide us through the maze--and it is a maze. He is the only one that can bring us to reality (since we live in darkness and cannot see the light.)

Therefore, you have to follow the rules He made so that you can come to the light of perfect knowledge in Him. I know this sounds very ethereal and other worldly but it is the way, the only way.

Oh I completely agree with you about Plato. He is in my mine, a denier of reality. In that he denies motion. Which is why I started this discussion with Aristotle.

I think I can understand what you're saying. I'm human. I can't make my own path to God. I have to follow along the route he has set out to lead us back to him, so he 'knows' to meet me.

Do you need "faith" as something that you don't understand? Haven't you already seen Him in the world of science? Haven't you already seen Him today when you got up to Not Chaos? Have you not already seen Him in your ability to think and reason? If not, I would ask then, how can things be the way they are? You and I both reasoned there had to be more. I've gone the way of sanity and reason (mine was sheer luck (or blessed as Christians say) that my parents came to God when I was young). You're nearly there.

You have a lot of faith already. You woke up this morning believing that the sun was going to rise. You woke up this morning not in extreme fear that your arms and legs did not fall to the ground while you slept because you believed things were normal. You got up this morning, knowing that you had food. That's a tremendous amount of faith. It is faith in normalcy. Without God, how could those things be?





But you know it is true. You've reasoned this out. Now you're doubting your reasoning (which, I might add, is right on target!)

Love from God is that He, being onmiscient and omnipotent, does not say, "Hey, I know what's best for you. Now I'm going to force you to love me." If He didn't love you and if He wanted you to honor and obey Him, don't you think He could force you?

But He doesn't.

How can that be?

Only through His greater love does He not!

I also see His love in His creation. We can heal ourselves. We get cut, and it heals! Who would have ever thought of that?

We get to see a beautiful sunset. Where did that come from?

Animals have worked out a system in the wild so that all species (without human interference) would survive. How would that work if not for intervention by someone who knew best?

Could this all be random?

There is so much proof in the world that He loves His creation.

I've at least recently started to look at a lot of the things you said and see them as evidence for a god. Order, the beauty and complexity of the natural world. However I've never looked at them as examples of Gods love. That's an interesting new perspective for me to consider. Thanks.

Sadly, for you, it is much harder to move toward God. I am a bit surprised that you have found a way (though to me, God's existence is the most logical thing in the world). But you have a great mind, and that makes for a much harder row to hoe. So, unfortunately, you will have to make a greater effort in your thinking to understand.

I guess I'm stuck on Augustines path. Which is to say, the one that requires the intellect. Which he describes as being the much harder path. Not worse, just more difficult.

My point above. You are given gifts. You have a great, scientific mind. I tell few people this because it creates conflict, but I used to belong to Mensa.

People don't realize it, but when you are exceptional (either below or above average), life is harder. They think you're gifted so you have all knowledge. Even my husband said, "Well, you're so smart, you didn't know that?" My retort is, "I don't have omniscience."

Yes, I do believe He speaks through our conscience. And since yours is developed highly, I would guess He has been speaking to you for quite a while.

The world is naturally easier if you don't stand out. Because the path has already been cleared for you. When you're different you have to do a bit of trailblazing. Makes sense.

Thanks for the answer. Curious, definitely something for me to consider then. I hadn't really ever considered that He might have been with me in a way that I already knew and was to an extent responding too. I sort of assumed that I would have been completely ignoring him.

Let me ask for you.

Thank you for that. As well as everything else you've written. It is much appreciated.

 

[Iamblichus]

That particular portion of Scripture refers to foolishly testing God - i.e, 'God if you're there, you'll catch me if I jump off this building!!' It basically means don't be an idiot - lots of Scripture boils down to that meaning

Glad to hear it - and happy to say that I have as well. Here's to a new year and more good conversation

Good lesson, I think. Thanks for the explanation.

Indeed, to what will hopefully be a good year. Always happy to chat, particularly when the conversations good.


@Oi_antz

Thanks for explaining. I hope you have a good new year as well.

 

[1Prophetess]

Iambluchus: I very much appreciate your "hearing" what I said. I admire you very much for having a thinking mind. I am very much enjoying watching you think through this information. It is my pleasure to write to you because it is a joy to see some other person besides me think their way through this all. I love having you add pieces for me so I can see it more clearly. Thank you. I wish I had been able to be a bit more concise, but it takes many words to try to get points across when a person has many questions.

I was thinking about another example, which you probably don't need, but I will give it to you anyway. A friend of mine, a doctor/scientist/geneticist, one of the greatest minds I've ever known in my life, was discussing with me some of the genetic discoveries they have made in their small group recently. They are unraveling the genetic code of the bovine and others. He and I were talking about genetics (which is my, admittedly novice, passion) and we were talking about his discoveries. If you study the miracle of life in the womb, it is so miraculous--how we are formed, you can only conclude that some thinking mind created life. I was talking to him as he is involved in mapping the genetics of the bovine. He said we still don't understand how that life force begins. We see, we observe, but we cannot explain it. That is such an amazing thought to me. How does it all happen? I just cannot fathom knowing anything about it without knowing there has to be a creator!

So we've concluded that there has to be a creator. And we've basically concluded that the creator cares about us enough to make beauty, make interesting things (genetics), make other things. But did the creator make anything other than what we can touch and see? Well, he did make genetics. Now we can, more and more, touch and see them, but there is so much we don't know. We know the mitochondria have action in our lives. We know that they are basic to every cell. But there is so much we do not know. So if there is still much we do not know, could the creator have had a reason to do this? After all, this earth is really for us, isn't it? The creator didn't put us to explore the universe (though I am a Star Trekkie!) And the creator didn't stay here. So he must have done this for us. Wow.

And if he (I will speak generically at this point) created all this for us, why? Why would it make sense that the creator did this? Although it seems beyond surprising that this creator cares, what other explanation can there be? There is way too much in this world that is pleasing to say that he didn't create these things for our pleasure. Why would he do that? Are we just a big experiment where, finally, he will destroy us like throwing out a petrie dish?

The Bible is the only book that explains this for me. The reason is because the creator loves us.

So now assuming it is true, I think I want more of an all powerful, all knowing creature that loves me. I mean, seriously, how could I be even rational to the smallest degree and not want more?

But the creator knows that I am incapable of getting to him. If I could have done it, I would have long ago. So how do I do this? It doesn't make sense if he loves me that he doesn't want me to be around him. So he wants me to come closer to him too. Wow!

So how do I do it? I can't. I'm lost.

I'm lost.

I cannot leave this planet, and he surely is not here or I would have heard of him and Tibetan monks would have shown us the way to find him.

So I am lost. I am without hope.

But the creator, who loves me, made a way. In fact, he wrote this long, involved book to help me find a way to get to him. That book is called the Bible.

The Bible is the way. It is the map.

In the Bible, Jesus says, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the father but by me." John 14:6

But how do I even know that Jesus is real? Although it is Wiki, from a cursory look, I think it does a pretty good job. Historical Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So we can conclude that there was an actual Jesus.

Wow. So Jesus says he is the way. That sounds pretty far out. A man is the way.

But the Bible says he was created special by God. I like this explanation:

Where Does the Bible Say Jesus is 100% Man and 100% God? - Probe Ministries

"Why do Christians believe that Jesus was fully divine and fully human, then? Well, we look at what the Bible does teach and we seem to be compelled to adopt this view.
For example, Jesus claimed, "before Abraham was born, I am " (John 8:58), clearly alluding to Exodus 3:14. He also claimed to be one with the Father (John 10:30-33). He acknowledged that he was the Christ, or Messiah (Mark 14:60-64; compare with Daniel 7:13-14). He also claimed that our eternal destinies hinged on our response to him (Luke 12:8-9).
In addition, Jesus is said to be the eternal word of God incarnate (John 1:1-3, 14). He is called the Creator and head of the church (Colossians 1:15-20). These are just a few of the passages which speak of Christ's deity or divinity.
Other passages speak of his humanity. For example, Jesus was conceived and born of a woman (Matthew 1:18-25). He thus had a human body. He experienced hunger, thirst and fatigue (Matt. 4:2; John 4:6; etc.). He suffered and died (John 19:34). He could be heard, seen and touched (1 John 1:1). He evidenced the emotional and intellectual qualities of a human being (see Matt. 26:37 and Mark 9:21).
Again, there are plenty of other passages concerning Jesus' humanity. When theologians try to put all of this together, they conclude that the Bible teaches that Jesus was both divine and human."




Okay, so back to our discussion. Let's just go with this for a bit. He says he is the way, and I don't know any other way. So I guess it makes sense to try his way. (I.e. if I was driving in a place I didn't know and got lost, and someone said they had the directions how to get unlost and gave them to me, I'd at least try their directions rather than sit there in my car and think, 'I don't believe you." or "I think you're a liar." I mean, if I'm lost, then I need someone else to direct me or find my own way with a map. And after all, if they come and offer me directions without my asking (the directions were always there), then they must have known I was going to need them. Does that make some sense?)

How does he open the door then? How do we get to him? If there is a heaven, I can't go there. At least, I've never found a way, and nobody that I've read about has found a doorway. If there was one I could see, I'd definitely go there. So how do I do this thing?

Romans 10 tells us: 5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: “The man who does these things will live by them.”

This is referring to the Old Testment. Rather than going back into the reasoning, before Jesus, people had different rules as a way to get to the creator than we do now that Jesus has come. So Moses is saying that, if you want to be good, you will live by the law. But good isn't the issue for us (and the law was made to show people they needed more). Getting to the creator is the issue for all mankind, past, present and future.

6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down)

Oh, so I don't need to go there? That's good because I don't know how to "ascend."

7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

He isn't in our time but from a previous, long ago time. He had to have died. And he did, and he rose again according to eye witnesses. And I can't go there either.



8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:

Here he is saying, the word that you need to say is near you. In fact, the way to Jesus is through "your mouth and in your heart." So it is in your words to say and believe!

God had to make it this simple because we can't ascend, we can't get dead and bring Jesus back, we can't do anything compared to an all mighty god. He had to make it simple so all we needed to do was speak (which we can do).


9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

So you say with your own mouth, "Jesus is Lord."

You believe that God raised him from the dead.

Now how do you believe that? You read the eye witness testimony here: Matthew 27 and 28; Mark 16; Luke 24; John 19 and 20.

In these chapters, you will see and believe. If you still do not believe, say, "I believe, Lord, help my unbelief." He will answer because he is love. He loves you enough to reach out to you and help you know he is creator and he is there. And he gave you the mind to know him.


11 As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (emphasis added)

If you call, he answers.

Read what I've told you to read.

Do your part so the creator can do his.

He's waiting on you.

God bless you.

Father, Lord Jesus, Holy Spirit, I thank You that You are with me. I praise You that You are the Way, the Truth and the Life. I ask that this man find you in these scriptures and find everlasting life through the Son, Jesus. In Jesus name, amen.

 

[1Prophetess]

I think I can understand what you're saying. I'm human. I can't make my own path to God. I have to follow along the route he has set out to lead us back to him, so he 'knows' to meet me.

This is such a beautiful statement, I just had to single it out and post it.

Yes, it is a path He knows to meet you. The reason it is that path is because when you go His (omniscient) way, He knows you're serious, you've done the best you can, and you really want to do it His way--not your way any longer. In a way, you're proving yourself to Him. You're not some person demanding that He, the omnipotent, omniscient God, comes to meet you.

So many talk about, "well, I'm willing to believe if God.... [meets me on my terms]. Frankly, if I wanted to meet Obama, I surely wouldn't tell him to come by my house. I'd go where he is.

If I wanted to meet Prince Charles, I sure wouldn't say, "Well, Prince, if you want me to know you, meet me at 29 Dover, at the coffee shop, and bring along one of your jewels so I know it's you!"

I am always amazed when people try to set their own rules to meet the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Just the fact that He's willing to meet me at all is amazing to me. I don't want to push my luck! And I surely don't want to irritate Him--all powerful that He is! (I don't want to find myself swirling down the toilet, or worse, on my way to hell without hope.) Anyway, I don't have the map. He does.

So once again, if we were lost in a car in the middle of a place we didn't know, and someone who appeared to be a native came up and said, "Would you like directions?" I don't think I'd say, "Get it. I'll show you how I want to go, then you can do a miracle and turn my car around when I'm wrong." The person would back away, hold up their hands, and say, "No, I'm not going to get it. Go ahead. You seem to already know the way." And I'd be off in my folly without the map or directions! If you're offered directions from a native, you need to listen or stay lost. It's common sense.

So He has the right to tell me how to come to Him. He knows the path. I have the right to follow. If not, I have the right to fail to find the way.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

Ah I think I understand much better now thank you for clarifying.

So belief isn't a wager, but you can move towards belief by a wager, that's definitely an idea which appeals to myself. The concept of trying something as a wager. Though I wonder would that contradict what God told us about not testing him? I'm not, as you a know a Christian so perhaps I'm misunderstanding.

I'd be happy to, you're insight is alway welcome and often illuminating.

And thank you I've had a lovely Christmas Break thus far. I hope you can say the same.

Slightly late - but I took some of the thoughts in our conversation and turned it into a blog post; the language is a little academic , but I think it serves as a decent overview of the topic.

https://theologiansinc.wordpress.co...-hidden-god-wagers-and-the-burden-of-seeking/

Hopefully this gives all concerned some food for thought

I guess I'm stuck on Augustines path. Which is to say, the one that requires the intellect. Which he describes as being the much harder path. Not worse, just more difficult.

If you haven't, I highly recommend reading his 'Confessions,' - it really is one of the great works of world literature, and has some truly penetrating insights into some of the things we've talked about.

 

[Iamblichus]

Yeah, the example that your friend when through was pretty much exactly my train of logic, before posting this thread. I was thinking about life, and realized I can't explain what life is. It's just this spark in us, that somehow makes all living things incredible.

That's a really interesting thought, why create everything, if not for the beings on it, and why create it for the beings on if if you don't love them.

If you love beings, you want them to be with you, the creation of a map seems like a pretty logical way to do that. I'm not one to argue the divine and mortal conundrum that is Christ. Far too much philosophy from the middle ages does a wonderful job explaining it.

Thats a really great way of explaining it, how we are lost being offered directions. In a language so beyond us we can hardly understand, so the directions are made supremely simply for us.

I've read some more of the new testament, I went to a service at the invitation of some of my friends, and I've done a bit of praying.. Also read descarte and his multiple proofs of God. I think its all sinking in slowly.

Sorry for disappearing on you. I've been slightly swamped since classes got going.

And yeah, its really interesting how many people want everything on there own terms, and aren't willing to accept that the world doesn't have to change to suit them. A product of an over-individualized society? Perhaps.

 

[Iamblichus]

@Walter

Academic language is fine. I've enough practice with dense writing to be able to pick out some information at least. I've only had time to give it a single read through. I want to give it another and a chance to absorb before I write anything here about it. Just so you know

I have read most of Augustine, we got up to just after the death of his mother for my class. Which is where my reference came from.