Have the locusts from Rev 9 already been loosed?

Lost Witness

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LOL...
so you think FIRE comes out to the Saints mouth as they preach the Word.
That is hilarious buddy

BTW, thanks for reporting me to the moderators.
What does that say about you?

/
Not everything in the bible is a 'metaphor' :oldthumbsup:
mmhmm, Also don't think 2 equates to the Body Of christ,
as a whole it would be "1 body" individually it would be far greater than 2 :oldthumbsup:
 
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5thKingdom

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Not everything in the bible is a 'metaphor' :oldthumbsup:
mmhmm, Also don't think 2 equates to the Body Of christ,
as a whole it would be "1 body" individually it would be far greater than 2 :oldthumbsup:


That has NOTHING to do with my comment.

Do you "feel better" DEFLECTING to a different subject?
Do you imagine that make you LOOK better?
Think again

/
 
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Derf

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That has NOTHING to do with my comment.

Do you "feel better" DEFLECTING to a different subject?
Do you imagine that make you LOOK better?
Think again

/
So you know how it feels to have someone deflect now? Maybe you shouldn't do it so often.
 
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Derf

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So you know how it feels to have someone deflect now? Maybe you shouldn't do it so often.
@5thKingdom
And you're welcome for reporting you. Don't be so obnoxious. I'd like to hear the various views on the plague of locusts, as well as the 2 witnesses, but present your case for them--don't just berate everyone for how stupid you think they are.
 
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TribulationSigns

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The '2' Witnesses will Die in Jerusalem as it's Written In Scripture.

However, you don't know exactly who these two witnesses are as God defined them. That's why they aren't your two mere men.
 
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TribulationSigns

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My understanding doesn't limit GOD,
I acknowledge that GODS word never comes back void,
He says, "And if anyone wants to harm them, 'FIRE' flows out of their mouth and 'DEVOURS' their enemies; and so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be 'KILLED' in this way." He said It, I believe it.
Foolishness not to believe GODS word,
Yes it's the Holy Spirit who does these things but I can assure you it will be fire that kills those who wish to harm the LORDS '2' Witnesses

Again...

Jer 5:14
(14) Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

I see that you are still unable to answer my question about whether Jeremiah 5:14 was actually fulfilled literately in the Old Testament. Now in regard to Revelation 11:5...

Rev 11:5
(5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

And you believe that if anyone pokes in the eyes, punches in the nose, or cuts with a knife, they will be killed on the spot? Sigh...

This is not what God talked about. So listen closely...

Scripture tells us that the Word of God from the mouth of God's prophets is as a fire which devours His enemies. This is because it is a Word of judgment. Symbolically speaking, as fire is to wood, so is the Word of God to the wicked because it is the declaration of their firey destruction which cannot return void. The Word of God is either a witness of truth unto man for His Salvation, or it is a witness against man unto his judgment.

Again, this is the marvelous symbolic imagery that God uses here to show us that He is not speaking literally. Would those theologians who claim that these are physically two people, also claim that they are literally fire-breathing people who roast the wicked with flames from their mouths? Of course not. For even they understand that this is symbolism. And yet they will inconsistently attempt to draw the conclusion that the two witnesses from who's mouth proceeds symbolic fire, are literally two people. But inconsistency is the hallmark of error. If they were two literal people, then their mouths are literal, and the fire from it literal. And the mouth is another clue that this fire is 'symbolizing' the Word of God. The very fact that we are told it comes from their mouths, brings clarity to the symbolism. The mouth is where words of fire come from, not literal flames. What words does the faithful Church speak that is like a fire to burn the enemies of God? Clearly, our Lord tells us that it is the Word of God. The Church comes in mourning because they recognize the seriousness of sin, and they know that the world is going to hell in a hand basket. Their Word of testimony to repent and be Saved is as cool waters to those who by Grace of God 'receive' it, but their testimony of sure judgment and God's vengeance upon the unrepentant is as fire to those who do not want to hear it. Man in his destitute heart reviles and scoffs and shows their hatred for the witness to the truth, and when that happens the Word is a witness of judgment upon their heads. These unrepentant are those devoured by the fire from the witness of the Church. For on the one hand God's Word is as cool waters to a thirsty soul to those who will receive it..

Proverbs 25:25
  • "As cold waters to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country."
..and on the other hand it's like a flaming fire to those who will not receive it. As the Lord spoke in Jeremiah that His Word is symbolically likened unto this fire:

Jeremiah 23:29-31
  • "..Is not My Word like a fire saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
  • Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
  • Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith."
Unambiguously, God is using fire to 'symbolize' His Word to the people. He is declaring that it will judge the false prophets of His congregation for making their own words to be the Word of God. This is spiritual idolatry. In other words, man is making a false god in the Temple by claiming his own words, are God's Words. God's Word is as a fire and will destroy those who do such things. And in verse twenty-three of that chapter, God illustrates He will be a God afar off from them. Here is very clear precedence of the Lord speaking of those who come bringing 'His Word,' and He 'signifies' them as His servants who come with fire from their mouths. It's not idle speculation, it is Biblical fact that the judgment of His congregation by His servants coming with the Word, is as them coming with fire from their mouths. Consider wisely:

Jeremiah 5:11-14
  • "For the house of Israel and the house of Judah have dealt very treacherously against me, saith the LORD.
  • They have belied the LORD, and said, It is not he; neither shall evil come upon us; neither shall we see sword nor famine:
  • And the prophets shall become wind, and the word is not in them: thus shall it be done unto them.
  • Wherefore, thus saith the Lord God of Hosts, because ye speak this word, behold, I will make My Words in thy mouth, fire and this people wood and it shall devour them."
The exact same symbolic language which we see in Revelations chapter eleven of the witnesses of God with fire coming out of their mouths whereby the enemies are killed. This fire is symbolizing the Word of God, which by the Spirit is the power of judgment given to the Church. These false prophets who think that they are safe and secure and no evil shall come upon them because they are God's Congregation, will have a rude awakening come the day of judgment. Because the Word which they disdain is the flaming sword of the Spirit which is the judgment which shall light upon them and devour them. Just as God prophesied to the Old Testament congregation that He would bring the nations upon the house of Israel as judgment, so God will also loose the beast who will bring the nations against His New testament congregation who has forsaken Him and done the same wicked and abominable things. For there is nothing New under the Sun. Selah!

Now, if any man will hurt [adikeo], or treat unjustly that they offend God's Witnesses, His Holy Word will come down upon those wicked like the fire that came down from heaven in Elijah's day, and devoured his enemies. For the Word of God is as the flaming sword to protect them. It's basically the very same warning that Jesus gave the wicked in Matthew chapter eighteen, of the judgment which would come upon those who come against 'His Children.'

Matthew 18:10
  • "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always BEHOLD the face of My father which is in heaven."
This is talking not about any literal children, but the Spiritual Children of God. Our spirit is always before the face of God because we are those whom Revelation 11:4 said stand before the God of the Earth. We are those raised up with Christ to sit in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6) as Sons of God, humble before His holy Word, faithful children that we are beloved of Him. There is a biblical principle at work here, and it is that the Word of God protects His children that judgement is upon those who would hurt or unjustly offend them.

Matthew 18:4-6
  • "Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
  • And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
  • But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."
Not any little child, but one such little child in humility before God. We are these Children, New Testament prophets of God, and if anyone should hurt us, they come under the wrath of God's judgment. For by God's Spirit we stand before the father as righteous offspring, and our testimony to His Word is with power. It is not words spoken in vain or that return void. Inasmuch as the wicked do evil to God's Children, they are doing evil to God. Inasmuch as any will hurt them, Revelation eleven is illustrating that he must in this manner be killed. In other words, in like manner as they try to hurt the witnesses of God, they shall have retribution in kind. Their testimony against their lawlessness shall bring them death, the wages for their sin.

Revelation 13:10
  • "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."
In like manner as the wicked do to God's servants, God will require it, and bring them into captivity of the beast, and kill them with the sword. The saints are patient, leaning upon God's Holy Word, and putting their trust in the Lord in time of great tribulation.

Romans 12:12
  • "Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;"
Their faith is in God's Word and their hope is in Christ, and despite the tribulation brought about by the unrighteous who hate them (both inside and outside the Church), they continue instant in prayer and supplication to God, knowing that their inheritance in Salvation is assured. Here is the patience of the saints. They have the faith 'of' Christ.

The overview of verse five is that it is illustrating these witnesses of God are as the goodness of the green olive tree (Jeremiah 11:16), and as the light from a candlestick that they are delivered from the power of darkness (Colossians 1:13). They are those who are clothed in righteousness that they may stand without fault before the God of all the earth. They are under God's care and protection (Revelation 12:14) so that if any man will hurt them, the Word of God as a flaming fire from their mouth will devour them as enemies of God. For those who are foes of the true Church (the indivisible body of Christ), are foes of Christ. If anyone shall hurt God's Witnesses, he must in this manner be killed. By the Word of God they shall be judged. As indeed Jesus plainly said:

John 12:48
  • "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
The witnesses of God, the testimony of Christ comes as a Word of Salvation, but also as a Word of judgment. Remember that God's Word is a two-edged sword that comes out of the mouths of His Witnesses. By their witness Salvation comes to man, and likewise by their testimony the enemies of God will be judged. By this Word of God spoken as a witness against them, which they will have to give an account of it on the last day.

Therefore, the enemies of God aren't literally killed by fire, but this is symbolism signifying that by the true believers coming with His Word from their mouths, it is as a fire that brings them death. This power of judgment refers to the power which is granted to the Church at the time of it's witness.

Selah!
 
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DavidPT

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Did you have a question or point of discussion about those two sentences?

Not really, meaning in regards to those last 2 sentences in post #171. I was merely pointing out what you already pointed out in post #173 since I noticed that as well, in regards to post #171 and how 5thK responded to that particular post.

As you pointed out in post #171, the 2ws become dead then become alive again, yet 5thK appears to insist all last saints remain alive until the 2nd coming. Which then ignores what Revelation 20:4 records about the last saints---and I saw the souls of them which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

Which then means these in Revelation 20:4 are meaning these when the 2nd coming occurs---the dead in Christ shall rise first(1 Thessalonians 4:16)---and not these instead---Then we which are alive and remain(1 Thessalonians 4:17).

The way 5thK tries to get around some of this, these---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:40---that none of them are meaning any of the last saints.

Even all of that aside I still don't understand 5thK's point in regards to the 2Ws, because when they rise, it is not during the 2nd coming, it is before the 2nd coming.

And then there is this during the time of the last saints.

and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed(Revelation 13:15)

Obviously then, it is what you already indicated in post #171 being the truth of the matter---Some saints, not all.
Meaning some last saints will still be alive and remaining when Christ returns while some last saints won't and can't still be alive and remaining when Christ returns if this was their fate instead---that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Why some last saints who refuse to worship the beast will be killed, while other last saints that refuse to worship the beast won't be killed, that I can't tell you. All I know is, obviously, not all last saints are killed, otherwise 1 Thessalonians 4:17 makes no sense. While at the same time, obviously, some last saints are killed, otherwise Revelation 13:15 nor Revelation 20:4 makes any sense.
 
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Emun

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I remember over 20 years ago reading the Left Behind series up until the Locusts of Rev 9 were discussed, and that's where I lost interest. I applaud LaHaye and Jenkins for holding to as strict a literal interpretation as possible, but for some reason it was too much in that instance.

Now I'm wondering if we've seen at least the beginning of the 1st Woe. I'll explain.

[Rev 9:1 KJV] And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Stars aren't "hims". This star must be a non-literal reference. This sets the stage for the rest of the passage to be non-literal.

[Rev 9:2 KJV] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Smoke is often associated with judgment, probably because it affects more than the subjects of judgment. At the least it stings everyone's eyes where it reaches, and it reaches far into the air, vertically and horizontally.

[Rev 9:3 KJV] And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

We immediately see that these are not normal locusts, but have to be compared with the power of scorpions. Imagine if it were described the other way, and scorpions were given wings and made to swarm as locusts. Ouch!

[Rev 9:4 KJV] And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

The locusts don't even eat like normal locusts, but are only after the unbelievers. This is probably the hardest thing for my suggestion to fit.

[Rev 9:5 KJV] And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Why 5 months?
And what is the torment of a scorpion like?
Here's a description from emedicinehealth.com:
Severe signs and symptoms of a sting from a scorpion include numbness throughout the body, difficulty swallowing, a thick tongue, blurred vision, roving eye movements, seizures, salivation, and difficulty breathing.

[Rev 9:6 KJV] And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Does this mean they can't even kill themselves? Or does it somehow allude to a condition where they are kept alive medically? Or something else?

[Rev 9:7 KJV] And the shapes of the locusts [were] like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads [were] as it were crowns like gold, and their faces [were] as the faces of men.

Here's where I think it might apply to today. "Horses prepared into battle" seem to associate with military might and speed. "Crowns" suggest governmental authority. "Faces of men" may go with the next verse's "hair of women" to indicate something akin to the transgender movement, which is being pushed strongly in our military.

[Rev 9:8 KJV] And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as [the teeth] of lions.

If the main point of these locusts is to wield the power of scorpions, why do they need "teeth of lions"? Because it indicates the authority of rulers.

[Rev 9:9 KJV] And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

"Breastplates of iron" mean they have been made impervious to attack, even possibly political or spiritual attack, while the sound of the wings like chariots and horses running to battle reiterates the speed and power of military action and enforcement.

[Rev 9:10 KJV] And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power [was] to hurt men five months.
[Rev 9:11 KJV] And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.

The main thing these creatures try to accomplish is the name of their leader, "destruction".

So here's my theory--the last few years are the time period spoken of. The stings are the covid vaccine, which is said to give immunity, but only for a short time before needing a booster (about 5 months, perhaps). Our military is one of the driving forced of the vaccine, along with the government. The same military and government has been pushing the transgender garbage, whose poster boy is "Rachel" Levine (man's face, woman's hair).

View attachment 326385
The same government was of no use against the Antifa and BLM riots, but allowed them to perpetrate their destruction.

The scorpion sting symptoms are reminiscent of either Covid or the vaccine (myocarditis, blood clots, strokes, and general loss of immunity to many diseases). Mostly people aren't dying from the vaccine, though some are, and the supposed purpose is to keep people from dying. Many who are refusing to take the vaccine are believers (which may account for the text that says the believers are sealed against the locusts).

What do you think?
W. B. Godbey began his comments on Revelation 9 by stating, “This chapter is a thrilling description of the rise and progress of the Mohammedan wars.” Adam Clarke said that John’s description of the army of locusts “certainly agrees better with the Saracens than with any other people or nation” and “agrees very well with the troops of Mohammed.” Matthew Henry referred to the army of locusts as “the armies of the Mohamedan empire.” John Wesley said, “All this agrees with the slaughter which the Saracens made for a long time after Mahomet’s [Mohammed’s] death.”

From the scripture, we can see that God awakened Islam to punish the world.
 
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Lost Witness

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Again...

Jer 5:14
(14) Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

I see that you are still unable to answer my question about whether Jeremiah 5:14 was actually fulfilled literately in the Old Testament. Now in regard to Revelation 11:5...

Rev 11:5
(5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

And you believe that if anyone pokes in the eyes, punches in the nose, or cuts with a knife, they will be killed on the spot? Sigh...

This is not what God talked about. So listen closely...

Scripture tells us that the Word of God from the mouth of God's prophets is as a fire which devours His enemies. This is because it is a Word of judgment. Symbolically speaking, as fire is to wood, so is the Word of God to the wicked because it is the declaration of their firey destruction which cannot return void. The Word of God is either a witness of truth unto man for His Salvation, or it is a witness against man unto his judgment.

Again, this is the marvelous symbolic imagery that God uses here to show us that He is not speaking literally. Would those theologians who claim that these are physically two people, also claim that they are literally fire-breathing people who roast the wicked with flames from their mouths? Of course not. For even they understand that this is symbolism. And yet they will inconsistently attempt to draw the conclusion that the two witnesses from who's mouth proceeds symbolic fire, are literally two people. But inconsistency is the hallmark of error. If they were two literal people, then their mouths are literal, and the fire from it literal. And the mouth is another clue that this fire is 'symbolizing' the Word of God. The very fact that we are told it comes from their mouths, brings clarity to the symbolism. The mouth is where words of fire come from, not literal flames. What words does the faithful Church speak that is like a fire to burn the enemies of God? Clearly, our Lord tells us that it is the Word of God. The Church comes in mourning because they recognize the seriousness of sin, and they know that the world is going to hell in a hand basket. Their Word of testimony to repent and be Saved is as cool waters to those who by Grace of God 'receive' it, but their testimony of sure judgment and God's vengeance upon the unrepentant is as fire to those who do not want to hear it. Man in his destitute heart reviles and scoffs and shows their hatred for the witness to the truth, and when that happens the Word is a witness of judgment upon their heads. These unrepentant are those devoured by the fire from the witness of the Church. For on the one hand God's Word is as cool waters to a thirsty soul to those who will receive it..

Proverbs 25:25
  • "As cold waters to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country."
..and on the other hand it's like a flaming fire to those who will not receive it. As the Lord spoke in Jeremiah that His Word is symbolically likened unto this fire:

Jeremiah 23:29-31
  • "..Is not My Word like a fire saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
  • Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
  • Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith."
Unambiguously, God is using fire to 'symbolize' His Word to the people. He is declaring that it will judge the false prophets of His congregation for making their own words to be the Word of God. This is spiritual idolatry. In other words, man is making a false god in the Temple by claiming his own words, are God's Words. God's Word is as a fire and will destroy those who do such things. And in verse twenty-three of that chapter, God illustrates He will be a God afar off from them. Here is very clear precedence of the Lord speaking of those who come bringing 'His Word,' and He 'signifies' them as His servants who come with fire from their mouths. It's not idle speculation, it is Biblical fact that the judgment of His congregation by His servants coming with the Word, is as them coming with fire from their mouths. Consider wisely:

Jeremiah 5:11-14
  • "For the house of Israel and the house of Judah have dealt very treacherously against me, saith the LORD.
  • They have belied the LORD, and said, It is not he; neither shall evil come upon us; neither shall we see sword nor famine:
  • And the prophets shall become wind, and the word is not in them: thus shall it be done unto them.
  • Wherefore, thus saith the Lord God of Hosts, because ye speak this word, behold, I will make My Words in thy mouth, fire and this people wood and it shall devour them."
The exact same symbolic language which we see in Revelations chapter eleven of the witnesses of God with fire coming out of their mouths whereby the enemies are killed. This fire is symbolizing the Word of God, which by the Spirit is the power of judgment given to the Church. These false prophets who think that they are safe and secure and no evil shall come upon them because they are God's Congregation, will have a rude awakening come the day of judgment. Because the Word which they disdain is the flaming sword of the Spirit which is the judgment which shall light upon them and devour them. Just as God prophesied to the Old Testament congregation that He would bring the nations upon the house of Israel as judgment, so God will also loose the beast who will bring the nations against His New testament congregation who has forsaken Him and done the same wicked and abominable things. For there is nothing New under the Sun. Selah!

Now, if any man will hurt [adikeo], or treat unjustly that they offend God's Witnesses, His Holy Word will come down upon those wicked like the fire that came down from heaven in Elijah's day, and devoured his enemies. For the Word of God is as the flaming sword to protect them. It's basically the very same warning that Jesus gave the wicked in Matthew chapter eighteen, of the judgment which would come upon those who come against 'His Children.'

Matthew 18:10
  • "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always BEHOLD the face of My father which is in heaven."
This is talking not about any literal children, but the Spiritual Children of God. Our spirit is always before the face of God because we are those whom Revelation 11:4 said stand before the God of the Earth. We are those raised up with Christ to sit in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6) as Sons of God, humble before His holy Word, faithful children that we are beloved of Him. There is a biblical principle at work here, and it is that the Word of God protects His children that judgement is upon those who would hurt or unjustly offend them.

Matthew 18:4-6
  • "Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
  • And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
  • But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."
Not any little child, but one such little child in humility before God. We are these Children, New Testament prophets of God, and if anyone should hurt us, they come under the wrath of God's judgment. For by God's Spirit we stand before the father as righteous offspring, and our testimony to His Word is with power. It is not words spoken in vain or that return void. Inasmuch as the wicked do evil to God's Children, they are doing evil to God. Inasmuch as any will hurt them, Revelation eleven is illustrating that he must in this manner be killed. In other words, in like manner as they try to hurt the witnesses of God, they shall have retribution in kind. Their testimony against their lawlessness shall bring them death, the wages for their sin.

Revelation 13:10
  • "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."
In like manner as the wicked do to God's servants, God will require it, and bring them into captivity of the beast, and kill them with the sword. The saints are patient, leaning upon God's Holy Word, and putting their trust in the Lord in time of great tribulation.

Romans 12:12
  • "Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;"
Their faith is in God's Word and their hope is in Christ, and despite the tribulation brought about by the unrighteous who hate them (both inside and outside the Church), they continue instant in prayer and supplication to God, knowing that their inheritance in Salvation is assured. Here is the patience of the saints. They have the faith 'of' Christ.

The overview of verse five is that it is illustrating these witnesses of God are as the goodness of the green olive tree (Jeremiah 11:16), and as the light from a candlestick that they are delivered from the power of darkness (Colossians 1:13). They are those who are clothed in righteousness that they may stand without fault before the God of all the earth. They are under God's care and protection (Revelation 12:14) so that if any man will hurt them, the Word of God as a flaming fire from their mouth will devour them as enemies of God. For those who are foes of the true Church (the indivisible body of Christ), are foes of Christ. If anyone shall hurt God's Witnesses, he must in this manner be killed. By the Word of God they shall be judged. As indeed Jesus plainly said:

John 12:48
  • "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
The witnesses of God, the testimony of Christ comes as a Word of Salvation, but also as a Word of judgment. Remember that God's Word is a two-edged sword that comes out of the mouths of His Witnesses. By their witness Salvation comes to man, and likewise by their testimony the enemies of God will be judged. By this Word of God spoken as a witness against them, which they will have to give an account of it on the last day.

Therefore, the enemies of God aren't literally killed by fire, but this is symbolism signifying that by the true believers coming with His Word from their mouths, it is as a fire that brings them death. This power of judgment refers to the power which is granted to the Church at the time of it's witness.

Selah!
the 2 witnesses die in Jerusalem,
A wall of text doesn't disprove that.
"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

"And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."
So 'fire can't flow out of their mouths? but they can shut heaven so it doesn't rain and can turn water into blood and strike the earth with plagues as often as they will but they won't literally breathe fire onto their enemies?
they shall do ALL these things.
 
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DavidPT

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So 'fire can't flow out of their mouths? but they can shut heaven so it doesn't rain and can turn water into blood and strike the earth with plagues as often as they will but they won't literally breathe fire onto their enemies?
they shall do ALL these things.

What could be helpful here, the fact past events recorded in the OT involving plagues, etc, that these plagues literally happened in a literal sense, is if you could submit any examples from the OT where anyone ever breathed literal fire via their mouths and devoured their enemies as a result. I'm guessing you won't be able to find any examples of something like that. If it was something that has never literally occured since the beginning of man, someone breathing literal fire via their mouth, thus devouring their enemies in the process, why then should we assume that this literally becomes a reality in the final days of this age when it has never been a reality before that?
 
Lost Witness
Lost Witness
I don't argue with Scripture,
I take the LORDS word as it is,
TRUTH.
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego—were thrown into a fiery furnace because of their faithfulness to God,
they came out not even smelling like the furnace they were LITERALLY standing in :oldthumbsup:
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Derf

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My bible's margin notes point to Jeremiah 11:16-17 As a reference for olive tree.

Jeremiah 11:16-17 KJV — The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken. For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

So we know that olive trees are used to represent people groups, and specifically the people of Israel and various times.

Assuming they aren't two individuals, are they two people groups? And which two are they?

Finally, if 2 groups, do they actually strike the earth with plagues? That sounds more like individual prophets from the old testament, not people groups.
 
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TribulationSigns

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What could be helpful here, the fact past events recorded in the OT involving plagues, etc, that these plagues literally happened in a literal sense, is if you could submit any examples from the OT where anyone ever breathed literal fire via their mouths and devoured their enemies as a result. I'm guessing you won't be able to find any examples of something like that. If it was something that has never literally occured since the beginning of man, someone breathing literal fire via their mouth, thus devouring their enemies in the process, why then should we assume that this literally becomes a reality in the final days of this age when it has never been a reality before that?

giphy.gif
 
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TribulationSigns

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the 2 witnesses die in Jerusalem,
A wall of text doesn't disprove that.
"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

You need to read the verse and ask yourself:
1.) What great city is this?
2.) What does the street symbolically?
3.) Why is the great city considered as Sodom and Egypt, spiritually? What are they?
4.) What does this great city represent where our Lord was crucified? Is it the physical city Jerusalem, or covenant Jerusalem, the home of Two Witnesses? (Note: remember that there is only one holy place on this side of the Cross and that is the New Testament Covenant Congregation per the BIBLE!)

Show us the Scripture if you can compare these with the rest of the Scripture.



"And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

I have provided tons of Scripture explaining this. Obviously, you did not like it so you could not receive the truthful testimony I bring. Read my previous post again.

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."

I see that you have not done any homework. First, what heaven is this? What does the rain signify in Scripture? What does stopping rain from falling means? How and why will they turn water into blood? Will it be literal blood or it means that the water of the Gospel becomes polluted? You can't just read verse superficially and assume God is talking about some H20 that will turn into blood cells. I will wait for your explanation with Scirpture before I explain what the verse talks about. :)
 
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Assuming they aren't two individuals, are they two people groups? And which two are they?

Here is the overview of Revelation 11:4
  • "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth".
Christians have been taught so many different interpretations about candlesticks and olive trees that many find these verses confusing or difficult to sort out. There are some theologians who claim that these two represent the Old and New Testament Churches. But that obviously cannot be a correct interpretation because these prophecy on the New Testament side of the cross, and thus there cannot be an Old covenant Church at this time[19]. There is only one Church at the time of their prophecy, not two Testament witnesses to whom it is 'given' to prophecy at this time. Nor can it be Biblically validated that these are literally Enoch, Moses or Elijah as has been alleged.

The number one rule when trying to understand the 'symbolism' of Revelation is to remember that, 'the Bible is it's own interpreter.' In other words, the interpretation of these passages will be found in God's Word, not in our personal conceptions or in the imaginations of our heart. We compare scripture with scripture to see what God has to say in other passages about each item of symbolism. We study to show ourselves approved unto God by examining scripture against scripture, the spiritual with the Spiritual[19a]. By this we allow God to define His own terms. When we do this, our faithful work in Christ is rewarded and we begin to see how God consistently repeats the same symbolism throughout scripture. We learn from the text, the context, and in what sense it is used throughout. In this way we come to understand what God is illustrating by the word.

The fact is, to really understand the background of the symbolism of the candlesticks (lampstands), we have to go back to the Old Testament where the candlestick was commanded to be put in the Temple of God, and to be kept burning continually [tamiyd] by the service of the children of Israel. By this God was prefiguring that He is the light of the Temple of God, and that it is by the service of His servants that it will be kept burning continually. God is the true light of the Temple. And He is the tree which supplies the pure Olive oil (Spirit) for it's burning.

2nd Samuel 22:29
  • "For Thou art my Lamp, O Lord: and the Lord will lighten my darkness."
The significance in God commanding the children of Israel to keep the lamp of the Temple burning (Leviticus 24:1-3), is to show that the children of God have the work assigned them to keep light burning bright always. And this is the very same job that the Lord has given the New Testament Church today also. God's children today are commanded to keep the light burning continually, as they were commanded to do in the Old Testament congregation. We can clearly see this 'signification' as Jesus told the Church, 'Ye are the light of the world.' This is only because we are in Christ, and He is the true light of the world. And that was the same 'signification' that God was illustrating in the Old Testament ceremonial law of the lampstand (candlestick). Christ was the true focal point of it. He was the light, and they were His servants commissioned to keep it burning always. i.e., work that the light of the Lord would shine always. Unfortunately today, many have forsaken this calling, and forgotten it's history.

Exodus 27:20
  • "And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring the pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the Lamp to burn always.
  • In the Tabernacle of the congregation without the veil, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the Lord; it shall be a statute FOR EVER unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel."
That Hebrew word translated always is the exact same word [tamiyd] translated continual. The children of God were to keep that light Shining brightly always in the Holy Temple. It illustrated the precious light of the Lord that shines in darkness. It was their work or service to assure it remained burning by the pure oil of the olive. All these things of the Old Testament (shewbread, spoons, lamps, bowls, etc) of the Tabernacle, were fulfilled in Christ. He was that true light of the Temple that burns continually. That veil in the Temple signifies His Flesh, and the sacrifice blood on the altar a figure of His blood. All these were fulfilled in Christ. To try and bring any of these things of the literal Temple back would be an abomination, and would imply that Christ didn't fulfill them, or that He wasn't what these types looked forward to. The literal ceremonial laws cannot be applicable today. The Candlestick is fulfilled in the light of Christ. And just as the Church takes on the name CHRISTian, Holy Temple, Holy City, or Olive Tree, it takes on the name of the Candlestick or the Lampstand of Christ. It is an illustration that they are in the service of keeping the light of the Holy Temple. That is because the Church is the Body of Christ. We are the reflection of Christ in the world, we are the Children of God whose job it is to go forth keeping the light of the Candlestick burning continually just as it was the job of the Old Testament Israelites to do. To this end are we called. And that is why in Revelation we see God use Candlesticks as symbolism for His Church. They illustrate the Children of God in service to the light of Christ. This is not an assumption or idle speculation, God tells us 'point blank' what the symbolism of the Candlesticks are. And He does so both in the book of Revelation, and in other books. From the very first chapter of this apocalypse of Revelation, God had revealed the mystery or secret of the symbolism of the candlestick. We need only receive His explanation of what it is an image of, rather than accept man's speculation. i.e., by that same comparing scripture with scripture and letting God be His own interpreter of His Word.

Revelation 1:20
  • "the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden Candlesticks. The seven stars are the messengers of the seven churches: and the seven Candlesticks are the seven Churches."
God says the mystery [musterion], or the secret of the symbolism is revealed. The Candlestick is a symbol of God's Church. The star is a symbol of the messenger of God's Church. So here we have God from the very beginning of the book of Revelation revealing what the imagery of the Candlesticks symbolized. And yet we have theologians who, because of presuppositions or tradition, are looking for any excuse why we are not to understand this symbolism this way just a few chapters later. God interprets the symbolism for us, and He said the seven Candlesticks signified seven Churches. Perfect harmony with the rest of the scripture, because the Church is the representation of the Kingdom of Christ on earth, and it is signified as the light of the World.

And really, why should anyone be surprised at this symbolism? Despite the objections of some, Jesus used this same symbolism for the Church all during His teachings. The sound method in Biblical exegesis is achieved by checking for likeness and differences where these same terms are used throughout scripture. In that way, we find out what God means by spiritual imagery. We don't simply parrot what someone else has taught before, we bear witness to what God teaches.

Luke 8:16
  • "No man when he lighteth a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a Candlestick, that they which enter in may see the Light."
Matthew 5:14
  • "Ye are the light of the world, A City that is set on a hill cannot be hid.
  • neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a Candlestick; and it giveth Light unto all that are in the house."
Here again, we have Jesus Christ Himself using the same Candlestick [luchnia] to symbolize the Church, and the witnesses work in the New Testament Church as those keeping the light shinning continually, not hiding it, but bringing this light to the World. It doesn't get much plainer than this. And note that Jesus also equates the Church with a 'city' which is set upon a hill. This is the Holy city Jerusalem, the spiritual city of peace and light. And so we have conclusive indisputable evidences throughout scripture that the candlestick symbolizes the Church, the earthly representation of the light of the Lord. There is really no reason for speculation about it symbolizing anything else, unless one is predisposed to believing such ideas. For God Himself reveals the mystery on several diverse fronts.
Will this definition of the two witnesses hold true in the other images God uses for them, such as the two witnesses or the two Olive Trees? Do those also symbolize the Church which is the earthly representation of Christ? Again, we go back to the number one rule of sound hermeneutics, 'the Bible is it's own interpreter.' If we start off with no preconceived ideas about what it signifies, and search out the pertinent scriptures, it's not long before we see that the Olive tree is indeed used by God to symbolize the Church. For example in Hosea 14, speaking of Christ we read:

Hosea 14:5-7
  • "I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
  • His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the Olive Tree, and his smell as Lebanon."
  • They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon."
The Israel of God is ultimately Christ, and the children of God who dwell under the shadow of this tree will have no scorching sun on them. When we are in Christ, we are like a green olive tree in the house of the Lord (Psalms 52:8). This is the Salvation and the hope of the Israel of God. And as we are the light of the world because Christ is the light of the world, so we are the Olive tree because Christ is this Olive tree. He is the Israel of the New Covenant in whom if we abide, we are sons of God. We can see this most clearly in a passage like Romans chapter nine or chapter eleven where the Gentile nations are grafted into New Covenant Israel, which is symbolized by the Olive tree.

Romans 11:17
  • "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"
Clearly God is using a wild olive tree to symbolize the Gentile nations, and the natural Olive Tree to symbolize the representation of Covenant Israel into which believers are grafted. i.e., we join with Paul and the Apostles into Christ, the true Israel of God (Ephesians 2:11-19) which this Covenant tree merely represents. This is the New Covenant Church, and it is symbolized by the olive tree having Gentiles grafted into it that they become heirs (right along with the Jews) according to the promises to Israel. And so once again we see the Word of God showing just who the olive tree represents. All those Gentiles coming into this Jewish olive tree are the believers coming into the New Covenant Congregation. Those branches of the tree broken off are those of Israel who come under judgment and are blinded. The Jewish brethren who are Saved are the branches in this same tree right along with us. So we see Jewish people and Gentiles, all in the exact same olive tree of Salvation.
Likewise in Zechariah chapter four, the symbolism of two olive trees and the candlestick (lampstand) are signifying the Church.

Zechariah 4:2-6
  • "And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
  • And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
  • So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
  • Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
  • Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts."
The Lampstands and olive tress stand before God, not by their own power or by their own might, but by the Holy Spirit of the Lord. This again illustrating what we've been seeing of the two Witnesses. It is not by any power we have inherently, but because of the power of the Holy Spirit of God given us that we witness or have the testimony of Christ. Not by our own oil, but by the pure oil of the Olive tree. Not by our own light, but by the light of the candle. The two olive trees symbolize the anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth (Zechariah 4:14), not by their own power, but by power of God. This symbolizes the Church, anointed by the Spirit of God. Just as we read that the two Witnesses of Revelation also stand by the Lord of the earth.

Zechariah 4:14
  • "Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
The same thing revelation chapter eleven says of the two candlestick/olive trees there. They stand before the God of the earth. They are the anointed ones, meaning they are those who are anointed by the Holy Spirit, by being in Christ. The oil for the light is not theirs, it is that given them.

1st John 2:27
  • "But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
So we have seen from God's Word that the Witnesses represent the Church, the Candlesticks represent the Church, and the Olive Tree represents the Church, and that they are the anointed ones who stand before the God of the earth. All roads are leading to the same inescapable conclusion. This imagery represents the Church.

(Continue to next post)
 
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(Continued from previous post)

The final identifying factor is that these two witnesses are also called the two Prophets (verse 10). Who are the Prophets of God today? Not in the Old Testament, but who are the New Testament Prophets? ..Again, clearly, those of the Church are the only Holy prophets of God today.

1st Corinthians 12:28
  • "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healing, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."
Ever since the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, the Lord's servants of the New Covenant Church go forth prophesying (Acts 2:17). Whenever the Church declares the Word that the future holds everlasting life for the servants of God, an inheritance from above, and it holds judgment for those who do not believe, they are prophesying. Whenever they prophecy Jesus will someday return on the clouds of Glory to rapture the Church and wipe away all tears, they are prophesying God's Word. To prophesy in the broad sense means to be a messenger of God to declare His Word, or be a 'mouth piece.' In certain senses it means to declare God's Word by foretelling what God has in store in the future. And that is exactly what the Church does in it's testimony. It prophesies of God's Word of deliverance, judgment, inheritance, and Christ's coming.

It is true that there is the particular 'office' of a prophet in the Church, but in the general sense, all believers are prophets in that they are messengers to deliver God's Word. All through the scripture God calls those of the Church His prophets. This is implied also in God's warning us to 'beware of false prophets,' as opposed to true prophets (those with His testimony). You see, in one sense all true Christians today are prophets of God, declaring what shall be.

Joel 2:28
  • "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"
Acts 2:16-18
  • "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
  • And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
  • And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:"
We are made prophets able to declare God's Word by the anointing of the Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost. This was the fulfillment of that which was prophesied in Joel. That which was a mystery before, was made known. That the Gentiles in the New Testament Church dispensation would be prophets unto God and have truth revealed unto them.

Ephesians 3:5
  • "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto His Holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit."
All of us who are messengers declaring God's Word, are prophets. When God declares to his servants the prophets, he's declaring to the Church. Whether through the Bible by the Spirit, or before the Bible was complete by angels or from a burning Bush. When we bear witness to God's Word, we are prophesying just as the prophets of old did. They took what God told them, and they bore witness to it to His people. If we do it faithfully 'from' the innerrant Word of God, we are faithful (to God) prophets. If we do it unfaithfully or deceitfully, then we are false prophets. To put it simply, a faithful Prophet declares God's Word from God's mouth faithfully.

The consistency of all these things paints a glorious picture of God's prophecy. These two candlesticks are the Church, the light of the world, the true witnesses to the testimony of Christ who stand before the God of all the Earth. Just as when Jesus sent the 70 out by two, He said rejoice not in this power, but rejoice that your names were written in Heaven. In Luke 10:21 God said that the Father was Lord of Heaven and Earth, and this is the God of all the earth that all true believers stand before. Indeed, who except the true witnesses could stand before the God of all the earth and not be consumed? For they are those clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

When we study all the pertinent facts carefully, I believe that we can come to no other conclusion but that the two Candlesticks, Witnesses, Prophets, and Olive trees are the Church. They all fit interchangeably as a sign illustrating God's people. Like a gigantic Biblical picture puzzle, every piece fits perfectly. This is how we know we have come to real truth, as inconsistency is the hallmark of error.

Olive Tree = Church (Romans 11)
Candlestick = Church (Revelation 1)
Witnesses = Church (Acts 1)
Prophets = Church (Revelation 1)

I'd say this is pretty conclusive evidence. We've seen clear scripture which supports the candlestick, Olive Tree, Witnesses, and Prophets, are all used in scripture as representations of the Church. We've seen Biblical evidence that God uses the number two, and specifically, two witnesses, to illustrate a confirmation of that which is true. It is the true Church of God that is sent forth with power to witness in truth (as the 12 Apostles were sent out two by two). By contrast, there are no scriptures which say that the olive tree is Moses, or that it is Elijah, or that candlesticks symbolize enoch or the two covenants. That fact alone means that such personal interpretations are purely speculation by some theologians. In other words, it is not something which is actually declared, or which stands upon solid scripture.

The overview of verse four is that God gave power to these two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days in mourning. This is a symbolic picture of the indivisible Church as it has been given the power to testify for this length of time. Moreover, so that there is no confusion about these being literally two men, God also enlightens us that these are the two olive trees and two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And that word standing is again the Greek word [histemi] illustrating they are able to stand with God by the support of Christ. They 'stand' before God and give assent to His will, His Word, and His purpose, because they are made righteous in Christ. We have our consistent and Biblical understanding of this imagery. These witnesses are a representation of God's Church, and specifically in this context, God's 'true Church' not the external covenant Church. They are those who are 'standing before the God of the earth,' importing that they were strengthened in Christ, faithful messengers who adhere to His cause and testimonies.
 
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The locust army of revelation chapter 9 isn't here yet. Joel chapter 1 aligns with it. Revelation chapter 9:5 a 5 month period. Revelation chapter 12, Michael boots satan and fallen angels to earth at the 6th trump. Satan will play his role as antichrist. Thiers lot of misguided preachers out there. Read second thessalonians chapter 2, the son of perdition goes into temple of God claiming to be God. Its Jerusalem, its satan as antichrist. There's only one son of perdition. No guessing games. The locust army comes 6th trump, near future. Satan as antichrist is the leader. Revelation chapter 13, antichrist leads a one world religious system. How do I get past antichrist lies and deception? Read ephesians chapter 6. The gospel armour is knowledge and wisdom of God's word. It's a spirtual battlefield. Not physical. Without sufficient oil, many people will worship antichrist. Ephesians chapter 6.
 
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