Hate the Religion - not the Religious

outsidethecamp

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Here we go again. :rolleyes:

There is no historic basis for your assertion that Christianity is not a religion. There is no scriptural basis for your assertion that Christianity is not a religion. You have to twist history, scripture and the dictionary to come to that conclusion. It is just another form of Christian triumphalism.
Oh for sure, I do see historically that " Christianity" has been made into many religions. I don't disagree with you. But, the person of Jesus Christ is not a religion.

He is the living, dynamic Son of God.

My relationship with Him is no more a religion than my relationship with my wife is a religion.

Both are based on trust, faith and faithfulness.
 
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smaneck

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I don't disagree with you. But, the person of Jesus Christ is not a religion.

Uh, yeah. And neither is the Person of Moses, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Buddha, Krishna and Baha'u'llah.

And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

My relationship with Him is no more a religion than my relationship with my wife is a religion.

Both are based on trust, faith and faithfulness.

You realize that relationship and religion are both intimately related to one another?
All religions are based on trust, faith and faithfulness. There is nothing unique about Christianity in this regard.
 
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outsidethecamp

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Uh, yeah. And neither is the Person of Moses, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Buddha, Krishna and Baha'u'llah.

And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

You realize that relationship and religion are both intimately related to one another?
All religions are based on trust, faith and faithfulness. There is nothing unique about Christianity in this regard.

Let's put it this way. Jesus Christ is the only one that is Alive and is God. That is what is unique about Christianity.

Also, where in the Early Church were the disciples going around saying, "Hey everyone, we have a brand new religion that is better than anything you have ever heard of. It answers all the questions on morality and ethics and can be used to win any debate. There is nothing like this religion and it is a religion of love and if you don't adhere to this new belief system, you will be lost forever. Not to mention you will lose all of your debates?"

No, they said, "He is Risen". They did not say "a new religion has arisen".

I like the way Jim Fowler has explained it. Maybe it will help you understand what I am trying to say.

"The story is told of Gautama Buddha, who lived some four hundred years prior to the birth of Jesus Christ. He was dying. Some of his devotees came to Buddha and asked how they should perpetuate his memory. “How should we share with the world the remembrance of you? How shall we memorialize you?” Buddha responded, “Don’t bother! It is not me that matters; it is my teaching that should be propagated and adhered to throughout the world.”

Does that seem to be self-effacing? Does that sound like a noble ideal that attempts to avoid egocentricity? “Don’t focus on me, just remember my teaching.” If Jesus had said something like that, it would certainly legitimize much of what we observe all around us today in the so-called “Christian religion.” The “Christian religion” that has formed around the teaching of Christianity is involved in the propagation of various understandings of Jesus’ teaching as determined by various interpretations of the Bible. Most of those who call themselves “Christians” today seem to think that Jesus advocated the same thing that Buddha is alleged to have uttered. “Don’t focus on me, just remember my teaching.” Jesus did not say anything like that! In fact, what Buddha said is contrary to everything Jesus taught, and everything recorded in the New Testament scriptures. Jesus did not say, “Just remember my teaching.” Jesus said, “I AM the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25). “I AM the way, the truth and the life” (John 14:6). He did not say, “I will show you the way; I will teach you the truth; I will give you the life.” His own indwelling presence is the only way for man to be man as God intended. The reality of His person is the truth of God. The very personal presence of the risen Lord Jesus is the life of the Living God, the ontological essence of everything He came to bring to this world. In Buddhism the person of Buddha may not be of any importance except for historical observation, but in Christianity the risen and living Person of Jesus Christ is the reality of God’s presence restored to mankind.

Another story is told of Sadhu Sundar Singh, a convert from the religion of Sikhism to Christianity, who eventually became one of India’s most well-known Christians. A European professor of comparative religions (who was himself an agnostic) interviewed the former Sadhu one day, with the evident intention of showing him his mistake in renouncing another religion for what he perceived to be the “Christian religion.”

The professor asked Mr. Singh, “What have you found in the Christian religion that you did not have in your old religion?” Sundar Singh answered, “I have Jesus.” “Yes, I know,” the professor replied somewhat impatiently, “but what particular principles or doctrines have you found that you did not have before?” Sunday Singh replied, “The particular person I have found is Jesus.”

Try as he might, the professor could not budge him from that position. He went away discomfited but thoughtful.

Sundar Singh was right. The religions of the world have some fine teachings, but they lack the person and life of Jesus Christ, the dynamic presence of God in man.

A personal friend, Bill Hekman, was once seated on an airplane and struck up a conversation with the gentleman seated next to him. In their conversation the fellowpassenger explained that he was a Professor of Islamic Studies. Bill Hekman indicated that he was a Christian and had been a missionary to Irian Jaya for twenty years, and that he was returning to Indonesia to engage in Christian teaching.

Their conversation eventually included a discussion of the extent to which the peoples of Indonesia had converted from the predominant religion of Islam to Christianity, and a mutual questioning of whether the Indonesian government statistics of the percentages of Muslims and Christians were accurate. Then the professor of Islamic studies said something very surprising. He indicated that he thought that Indonesia would someday be a primarily Christian nation. Bill, though obviously hopeful of such, was taken aback by such a prediction, and asked him why he thought that this would take place. The professor replied, “Because the Christians have Roh Allah.” Roh Allah is the Indonesian expression for the “Spirit of God.” This professor realized that there was a dynamic and power in the “Spirit of God” that was beyond anything that Islam had in their belief-system that traced back to the teaching of Mohammed. Indeed there is, for the “Spirit of Christ” is the vital dynamic of the living Lord Jesus, who as God comes to live in the Christian and empower him for the outworking of God’s character and work."

In all of the world’s religions, you can take away the founder and still have the religion. You can take Buddha 16 out of Buddhism and still have the Four Noble Truths and the Eight-fold Path. You can take Mohammed out of Islam, and still have the Five Pillars of Action and the Six Articles of Belief. And yes, tragically, you can take Christ out of that misnomer of “Christian religion,” and still have the doctrines and the programs and the organizational machinery that masquerade as the “church.” Liberal theologians within the “Christian religion” have indicated that it does not matter whether there was ever an “historical Jesus,” as long as the “religion” benefits a person psychologically and ethically. On such a premise of subjective religious impact being the existential essence of the “Christian religion,” they go about “demythologizing” the New Testament scriptures to reduce them to psychological and ethical tenets.

The hypothetical question might be asked, “If God could and would die tonight, what would happen to the ‘Christian religion’ tomorrow?” The answer is “Nothing!” The “Christian religion” would keep right on functioning, because Jesus Christ, as God, is not the essence and the dynamic of what they are doing anyway! If God were to die tonight, it would be “business as usual” for religion 17 tomorrow. It does not require God in Christ for the “Christian religion” to function; just man and money!

Genuine Christianity, on the other hand, requires the presence and function of the life and person of the living Lord Jesus. Christianity is Christ! Jesus Christ is not just the historical founder of a “Christian religion”; rather He is the vital spiritual essence of Christianity that is His dynamic ontological function within receptive humanity.
 
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cloudyday2

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If we base our statistics solely on deaths due to domestic violence, the US hasn't been doing so well compared to many Muslim countries. Masihi, in attempting to make Islam look bad stated that there 150 deaths related to domestic violence in Turkey last year. In the US the number is about 1000. We are 4Xs the size of Turkey population-wise. That makes our domestic violence deaths nearly twice that of Turkey.

Any comparison would probably need to use factor analysis ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factor_analysis ) or something like that to look at the many factors involved. For example, there are probably more guns in US homes than there are in Turkish homes? An American wife might shoot her husband after suffering violence while a Turkish wife might simply endure the abuse? Record keeping might be different in Turkey due to lack of concern over domestic violence compared to the US? Of course each religion consists of different sects with different traits. So I'm sure it would be very, very hard to demonstrate cause and effect, but assuming that belief in a religion increases the minority who behave badly, would it be acceptable to criticize and possibly control that religion for the good of society - much like gun control?
 
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smaneck

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Any comparison would probably need to use factor analysis ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factor_analysis ) or something like that to look at the many factors involved. For example, there are probably more guns in US homes than there are in Turkish homes? An American wife might shoot her husband after suffering violence while a Turkish wife might simply endure the abuse?

The statistics I alluded to were of deaths resulting from domestic violence. That's because domestic violence is less likely to be reported in religiously conservative families (whether Muslim or Christian) but deaths nearly always have to be.

So I'm sure it would be very, very hard to demonstrate cause and effect, but assuming that belief in a religion increases the minority who behave badly, would it be acceptable to criticize and possibly control that religion for the good of society - much like gun control?

I think that depends on what you mean by a religion. I would say that certain types of religiosity are more likely to lead to domesticate violence and that type of religiosity needs to critically examined and perhaps controlled. For instance, those Christians sects which stress wifely submission have a higher incidence of domestic violence than one might find among the United Church of Christ or the United Methodists. That doesn't mean we should outlaw the Independent Baptists.
 
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smaneck

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Let's put it this way. Jesus Christ is the only one that is Alive and is God. That is what is unique about Christianity.

Correction. Christianity is the only religion that believes its founder is physically alive. Lots of religions believe their founder is God, or at least everything we can understand about God humanly speaking. And nearly all believe their founder is alive spiritually, which for them is much more important than physical existence.

Also, where in the Early Church were the disciples going around saying, "Hey everyone, we have a brand new religion that is better than anything you have ever heard of. It answers all the questions on morality and ethics and can be used to win any debate. There is nothing like this religion and it is a religion of love and if you don't adhere to this new belief system, you will be lost forever. Not to mention you will lose all of your debates?"

No, they said, "He is Risen". They did not say "a new religion has arisen".

Saying somebody has risen from the dead would have attracted no one. It was Paul's doctrine of justification by faith which made Christianity into a world religion. Otherwise it would have remained a messianic Jewish sect.

I like the way Jim Fowler has explained it. Maybe it will help you understand what I am trying to say.

"The story is told of Gautama Buddha, who lived some four hundred years prior to the birth of Jesus Christ. He was dying. Some of his devotees came to Buddha and asked how they should perpetuate his memory. “How should we share with the world the remembrance of you? How shall we memorialize you?” Buddha responded, “Don’t bother! It is not me that matters; it is my teaching that should be propagated and adhered to throughout the world.”

Who is Jim Fowler and what makes him an expert on Buddhism and all these other religions? If you check out the thread on Buddhism here you will find Yoder arguing for salvation by devotion to Amitabha Buddha alone.

IMO, Fowler is the perfect example of exactly the kind of triumphalism I was talking about.
 
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Arthra

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Maybe I need to start another thread, but I've been wondering when the idea of marriage developed. I believe it was originally about inheritance, but inheritance would not matter as much in the days of hunting and gathering. A child might inherit the job of a parent, but there would be no herds or fields to inherit.

Getting back on topic, how does Bahai deal with the story of Abraham? My understanding is that Bahai seeks to combine Buddhism with Islam. It's hard to see anything very Buddhist in this story of Abraham. It glorifies absolutes and extremism IMO.

Cloudyday2 wrote above:

"Getting back on topic, how does Bahai deal with the story of Abraham? My understanding is that Bahai seeks to combine Buddhism with Islam. It's hard to see anything very Buddhist in this story of Abraham. It glorifies absolutes and extremism"

Thanks for your question "Cloudyday 2"! I think it may have been overlooked ...

Let me first respond to your statement "Bahai seeks to combine Buddhism with Islam."
I haven't really seen that idea before and I doubt that's something we seek to do... We recognize all the major religions as having a common Divine Source and that God has sent His Manifestations including the Buddha. The Baha'i Faith in our view is the latest revelation from God. It is not an attempt to "combine" any religions in some kind of synthesis.

As to the sacrifice of Abraham, you may be interested in what Abdul-Baha said about Abraham and sacrifice:

"In reality, Abraham sacrificed Himself, for He brought heavenly teachings to the world and conferred heavenly food upon mankind.
As to the third meaning of sacrifice, it is this: If you plant a seed in the ground, a tree will become manifest from that seed. The seed sacrifices itself to the tree that will come from it. The seed is outwardly lost, destroyed; but the same seed which is sacrificed will be absorbed and embodied in the tree, its blossoms, fruit and branches. If the identity of that seed had not been sacrificed to the tree which became manifest from it, no branches, blossoms or fruits would have been forthcoming. Christ outwardly disappeared. His personal identity became hidden from the eyes, even as the identity of the seed disappeared; but the bounties, divine qualities and perfections of Christ became manifest in the Christian community which Christ founded through sacrificing Himself."


~ Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 635 (2007 edition)

So the concept of sacrifice mentioned above would be in my view very much like that of "renunciation" found in the teachings of Gautama the Buddha.
 
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outsidethecamp

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And Islam, and Baha'i, and Buddhism, and Hinduism, etc. etc.

Jesus is not an "ism". And all I can say is, I have Jesus. He was enough for the Early Church and He is enough for me. It is by His Spirit that I understand forgiveness and love and eternal things. I don't endure trials and tribulations with doctrine or textbook religion, He gave me a new heart not a belief system and He shed abroad in my heart His love not a creed.

Jesus is LIFE. He is love, light, joy, peace and righteousness. "He that hath the Son hath life"

1Jn_5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (See? The Bible does not talk about religion, it focuses on Christ).

Men took Christ out of Christianity by making doctrine, creeds, belief systems the focus instead of making the Person of Jesus Christ the focus. Anything that detracts from Christ, is obviously not from God. (that is the Christian perspective).
 
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outsidethecamp

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Correction. Christianity is the only religion that believes its founder is physically alive. Lots of religions believe their founder is God, or at least everything we can understand about God humanly speaking. And nearly all believe their founder is alive spiritually, which for them is much more important than physical existence.

Jesus did not "found any religion". The only thing He found was lost men and women and restored them to the Father through His death and resurrection (LIFE).

Saying somebody has risen from the dead would have attracted no one. It was Paul's doctrine of justification by faith which made Christianity into a world religion. Otherwise it would have remained a messianic Jewish sect.

You must not know about the Gentile churches or the church in Antioch. Christianity was doing quite well until it was made a state religion.

Jesus is triumphant, that is correct. I have read the end of the Book and He is the Victor over Religion.
 
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Zoness

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I grow tired of this nonsensical idea of Christianity not being a religion. Christianity is in fact, a religion. It has belief requirements, a community in which to be a part of with political and cultural behaviors. This religion may include a relationship with the figure of Jesus but to eschew the common use of words to muddy the waters is disingenuous.
 
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outsidethecamp

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I grow tired of this nonsensical idea of Christianity not being a religion. Christianity is in fact, a religion. It has belief requirements, a community in which to be a part of with political and cultural behaviors. This religion may include a relationship with the figure of Jesus but to eschew the common use of words to muddy the waters is disingenuous.

What do you mean my political behaviors?

I never said the Christianity that people see today is not a religion. It most certainly has been turned not only into one religion, but many.

Is a family a religion? No. It's a community. Does a father and a mother instill certain truths into their children. Yes. That is not considered a religion.

Cultural behaviors are not even synonymous with a religion.

Jesus Christ is a Person and He is not a religion. Walking with Him daily is not a religion. Comparing Biblical Christianity with world religions is comparing Apples to Oranges. Can't be done.
 
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smaneck

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[QUOTE="outsidethecamp, post: 68235099, member: 35
Jesus is not an "ism".[/QUOTE]

Islam and the Baha'i Faith aren't 'isms' either. Hinduism, Buddhism and Zoroastrianism are 'isms' only because the British chose to identify them as such.

And all I can say is, I have Jesus.

Wonderful. And Pure Land Buddhists have Amitabha.

(See? The Bible does not talk about religion, it focuses on Christ).

No, the Bible does not talk about religion. And neither do the scriptures of nearly every other faith. The concept of religion, rather than being a universally valid category as is generally supposed, is a peculiarly European construct of surprisingly recent origin. W.Cantwell Smith, who unlike your Fowler, actually knows something about faiths other than his own, argues that none of the supposed founders of the world's major religions had any intention of founding a religion. Smith, whose specialty is Islam, argues that "Muhammad would have been, above all others perhaps, profoundly alarmed at any suggestion that he was starting a new religion." Smith points out that the Arabic language does not even have a word for religion. He details how the word din, customarily translated as such, differs in significant important respects from the European concept. Smith suggests "that practitioners of any given faith do not historically come to regard what they do as religion until they have developed a degree of cultural self-regard, causing them to see their collective spiritual practices and beliefs as in some way significantly different from the other. Religion in the contemporary sense of the word is for Smith the product of both identity politics and apologetics."

In other precisely the kind of identity politics and apologetics you are engaged in when you argue Christianity is not a religion.

However originally the word religion had an entirely different meaning. It came from the Latin word religio and inferred a relationship between God and man. Only recently been used to refer to a system of observances and beliefs.

Men took Christ out of Christianity by making doctrine, creeds, belief systems the focus instead of making the Person of Jesus Christ the focus.

You realize that doctrines, creeds and belief systems are all synonyms? I have a PhD field in church history and every creed I've ever read focused on the Person of Jesus Christ. It seems to be the one thing all Christians share in common.
 
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Zoness

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What do you mean my political behaviors?

I never said the Christianity that people see today is not a religion. It most certainly has been turned not only into one religion, but many.

Is a family a religion? No. It's a community. Does a father and a mother instill certain truths into their children. Yes. That is not considered a religion.

Cultural behaviors are not even synonymous with a religion.

Jesus Christ is a Person and He is not a religion. Walking with Him daily is not a religion. Comparing Biblical Christianity with world religions is comparing Apples to Oranges. Can't be done.

Huh what, there's a lot of extrapolation here. So what are you asserting exactly: That Christianity today is corrupt or that Christianity is not a religion? I mean, I have comparison charts on my computer between major religions and all of those charts do include Christianity, there are attributes that one can compare between various religions including Christianity.

As far as speaking Jesus' character specifically I don't see that as being the same thing.
 
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outsidethecamp

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he Baha'i Faith. Hinduism, Buddhism and Zoroastrianism are 'isms' only because the British chose to identify them as such.

Wonderful. And Pure Land Buddhists have Amitabha.



In some ways I would agree with you, but only in the sense that Islam and Buddhism etc. aren't religions either. The concept of religion, rather than being a universally valid category as is generally supposed, is a peculiarly European construct of surprisingly recent origin. W.Cantwell Smith, who unlike your Fowler, actually knows something about other religions, argues that none of the supposed founders of the world's major religions had any such intention. Smith, whose specialty is Islam, argues that "Muhammad would have been, above all others perhaps, profoundly alarmed at any suggestion that he was starting a new religion. Smith points out that the Arabic language does not even have a word for religion, strictly speaking: he details how the word din, customarily translated as such, differs in significant important respects from the European concept." Smith suggests "that practitioners of any given faith do not historically come to regard what they do as religion until they have developed a degree of cultural self-regard, causing them to see their collective spiritual practices and beliefs as in some way significantly different from the other. Religion in the contemporary sense of the word is for Smith the product of both identity politics and apologetics."

In other precisely the kind of identity politics and apologetics you are engaged in when you argue Christianity is not a religion because originally the Latin word religio inferred a relationship between God and man, and has only recently been used to refer to a system of observances and beliefs.



You realize that doctrines, creeds and belief systems are all synonyms? I have a PhD field in church history and ever creed I've ever seen focused on the Person of Jesus Christ. It seems to be the one thing all Christians share in common.

Did you know you can have a Christian creed and yet not have Jesus? You can have religion and yet not have the Son.

It's not a creed that causes one to be a "son" of God.

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Notice that Christians have been adopted into the family of God by being born of the Spirit.

A family, that is a community which is NOT a religion. There is no religion in heaven and the kingdom of God on earth is not a religion. But yes, there are "christian" religions on earth. I know what religion is. I grew up in a religious family that did not have the Son (Jesus). Jesus did not bring religion to downtrodden people, He brought Himself. Read this verse slowly and carefully.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

This is the Person of Jesus Christ drawing people to Him not to a religion.


Daniel Webster 1828 Dictionary says:
RELIGION, noun relij'on. [Latin religio, from religo, to bind anew; re and ligo, to bind. This word seems originally to have signified an oath or vow to the gods, or the obligation of such an oath or vow, which was held very sacred by the Romans.]

I am not aware of any vow to God that represents Christianity. In fact, He tells us not to make vows. Christianity is not performance based. It is the active, dynamic life of Christ within people.
 
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outsidethecamp

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Huh what, there's a lot of extrapolation here. So what are you asserting exactly: That Christianity today is corrupt or that Christianity is not a religion? I mean, I have comparison charts on my computer between major religions and all of those charts do include Christianity, there are attributes that one can compare between various religions including Christianity.

As far as speaking Jesus' character specifically I don't see that as being the same thing.

yah, I know it is kind of shocking hearing this for the first time, but like I said, the Early Church went around telling people about the "Good News", the Gospel, which is about a Person. They did not go around telling people about a new religion they discovered. Yes, there is a lot of corruption in Christianity, today. And yes, I have seen religious comparison charts, too.

Have you seen any comparison charts between Persons?

Jesus vs Mohammed
Jesus vs Moses
Jesus vs Zoroaster
Jesus vs Gautauma Buddha
Jesus vs Krishna
Jesus vs Baha'u'llah

You don't see much of that. Religion takes Jesus out of the picture and just compares the Christian belief systems against other world religion belief systems.

Problem is, what Christian belief system are you comparing? There are many.

Most Christian belief systems revolve around the clergy or the church.
 
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outsidethecamp

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Huh what, there's a lot of extrapolation here. So what are you asserting exactly: That Christianity today is corrupt or that Christianity is not a religion? I mean, I have comparison charts on my computer between major religions and all of those charts do include Christianity, there are attributes that one can compare between various religions including Christianity.

As far as speaking Jesus' character specifically I don't see that as being the same thing.
By the way, I like your quote by Snowden.
 
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cloudyday2

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As to the sacrifice of Abraham, you may be interested in what Abdul-Baha said about Abraham and sacrifice:

"In reality, Abraham sacrificed Himself, for He brought heavenly teachings to the world and conferred heavenly food upon mankind.
As to the third meaning of sacrifice, it is this: If you plant a seed in the ground, a tree will become manifest from that seed. The seed sacrifices itself to the tree that will come from it. The seed is outwardly lost, destroyed; but the same seed which is sacrificed will be absorbed and embodied in the tree, its blossoms, fruit and branches. If the identity of that seed had not been sacrificed to the tree which became manifest from it, no branches, blossoms or fruits would have been forthcoming. Christ outwardly disappeared. His personal identity became hidden from the eyes, even as the identity of the seed disappeared; but the bounties, divine qualities and perfections of Christ became manifest in the Christian community which Christ founded through sacrificing Himself."


~ Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 635 (2007 edition)

So the concept of sacrifice mentioned above would be in my view very much like that of "renunciation" found in the teachings of Gautama the Buddha.

o.k. thanks.
 
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