Groups versus Individuals versus Discussions

[laptoppop]

Enough. ENOUGH! ENOUGH!!!

I am sick and tired of inflammatory posts which treat TEs or YECs as some monolithic group instead of individuals. Almost invariably they are favorable to the poster's own position and insulting to the other one.

Guess what, YECs? There are TEs who love the Lord and the Scriptures and who are trying to advance in holiness and godliness.

Guess what, TEs? There are YECs who are educated and intelligent and who have chosen YEC based on their interpretation of the evidence and Scripture.

Guess what, folks? There are people who hold both positions who do not know all of the reasoning, or who parrot what they have been taught - either at church or at school. There are lots of people who are so convinced of their own "rightness" that they cannot really hear anything else.

Guess what, folks? Lies and deceit and various issues have happened with people from both positions. Its because positions are held by *people* -- and does not reflect on the veracity of the position itself.

The best measure of a position is not to shoot argumentum ad hominem attacks back and forth, but to discuss evidence and reasons. Just saying "no educated person..." or "noone who loves the Lord..." does NOTHING to advance the discussion - and just hurts feelings and causes people to leave. The best measure of a position is that which is most developed, not that which is used for popularization. For evolution - that means not just using what you can find in a Jr. High textbook. For YEC, that means not just using what you get from Kent Hovind. But people have to be given the opportunity to learn, and that takes time. Blanket statements such as "the flood has been disproven" are not helpful either -- obviously they are in dispute and not agreed on -- so lets talk reasons and information instead of just flinging conversation stopping rocks.

There are significant differences in how various folks around here look at Scripture -- but again, while there may be some level of commonality, it is not 100% -- the people here are composed of individuals, not mindless automatons. It is better for us to discuss the different methodologies and interpretations than it is to point fingers at groups. ENOUGH!

I hate to do it, but I think I'll start putting people who just lump folks into groups on my ignore list. If I don't respond to one of your posts, you can ask yourself if this might be why. I haven't done it yet to anyone - and hopefully I won't have to, but we need to return to a more respectful mode of discussion.

Yes, respectful. That means that we must understand that there are smart, educated, godly, wonderful people who hold all of the various positions, including TE and YEC. Some of them are around here. When someone comes in with a less mature position, we should guide them with gentleness and meekness and not hit them over the head with our elitist hammers of Scripture or science.

 

[pgp_protector]

Bummer I can't rec this post twice

 

[Jase]

The best measure of a position is not to shoot argumentum ad hominem attacks back and forth, but to discuss evidence and reasons. Just saying "no educated person..." or "noone who loves the Lord..." does NOTHING to advance the discussion - and just hurts feelings and causes people to leave. The best measure of a position is that which is most developed, not that which is used for popularization. For evolution - that means not just using what you can find in a Jr. High textbook. For YEC, that means not just using what you get from Kent Hovind. But people have to be given the opportunity to learn, and that takes time. Blanket statements such as "the flood has been disproven" are not helpful either -- obviously they are in dispute and not agreed on -- so lets talk reasons and information instead of just flinging conversation stopping rocks.

While I agree with you, the problem at least from a TE perspective is that YECs are completely unwilling to look at any evidence that actually challenges their position. Perhaps not all, but the vast majority of them. If any of us actually show evidence for why a global flood is physically impossible based on the evidence, or why the universe is vastly older than 6,000 years old, most YECs just go nuh uh, run to the Creationist forum, and start saying how ungodly TE's are because they challenged the literalist view.

I'm sure many TE's, myself included used to be creationists of some variety. I was a Young Earth creationist and literalist who did apologetics for 3 years on the largest atheist board on the net (and oddly enough, I was an evolutionist prior to becoming a YEC). I've seen every creationist argument in the book (in fact, I've used every creationist argument in the book), and I became a TE because I couldn't ignore the evidence any longer. I used to cite AIG and ICR all the time. But I realized I wasn't actually willing to look at the evidence. I had to take an evolution class in college when I was a YEC for my major. I went into the class saying, this is all a joke, evolution is wrong. I went through most of the class like that. My own preconceived views made me completely ignore the evidence. Incidently I got a B instead of A in the class

The point being, we're never going to make strides if creationists are unwilling to even acknowledge that their position may be wrong, or look at the evidence. Just look at the new protocol posts. 100% of TE's support removing the protocol. 100% of Creationists want the protocol to stay. Why such a disparity? Most creationists say it's because TE's criticize them, but if your views can't stand up to scrutiny, maybe you need to examine them better. At least you are receiving scrutiny from other Christians. Try being a YEC on a massive atheist board. You don't know insults and criticism until that happens. The fact is, creationism is extremely controversial because all the evidence in the world goes against it. By holding a minority view, you're gonna have to expect criticism. You just need to be able to tough it out better instead of walling off any outside influence. Honestly, it's pretty boring only debating with people who completely agree with you.

 

[Melethiel]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to laptoppop again.

Since you can't put me on ignore, do at least let me know if I ever warrant that.

 

[busterdog]

Bummer I can't rec this post twice

I can't rec it once. I will rec you for rec'ing it if I can.

 

[busterdog]

You just need to be able to tough it out better instead of walling off any outside influence. Honestly, it's pretty boring only debating with people who completely agree with you.

I can be plenty tough. I like to choose my ground. Why is that a problem? Is it the same reason my kids need to have evolutionists all over them to protect them from me?

If I couldn't take it I wouldn't be over here in the first place. (And by the way, its just a message board. So I am not sure what "tough" is supposed to mean.)

By the way, I saw your posts in the TE forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannager
Our poll:
100% in favor of opening the TE sub-forum up to creationists.

The Creationists' poll:
0% in favor of opening the Creationist sub-forum up to TEs.

THIS IS TELLING.
Just goes to show you they can't handle criticism from anyone else, even other Christians because they have nothing to support their beliefs other than an erroneous interpretation. I think it's rather sad that they want to be so walled off from everyone else.

 

[crawfish]

Great post! The cross should be common ground enough for us all.

 

[Jase]

I can be plenty tough. I like to choose my ground. Why is that a problem? Is it the same reason my kids need to have evolutionists all over them to protect them from me?

If I couldn't take it I wouldn't be over here in the first place. (And by the way, its just a message board. So I am not sure what "tough" is supposed to mean.)

By the way, I saw your posts in the TE forum.

By tough I mean able to handle criticism without running for safety in the creationist only forum where people who will always agree with you are.

As for my post, Dannager posted the This is telling, i posted the other part. What about it? That's quite tame compared to the venom floodnut spews at us in the creationist forum. I just think it's sad you guys choose to wall yourselves off so much.

 

[Melethiel]

Guys, let's keep this nice....

 

[laptoppop]

Since you can't put me on ignore, do at least let me know if I ever warrant that.

Thanks, but I can't see that ever happening - you've always been great.

 

[Scotishfury09]

Great post, pop. I agree 100%. No matter what your opinion is of a certain group, sincerity and kindness is always much better than harshness and generalities.

 

[Dannager]

Yeah, we're not a big fan of the fortress mentality creationists tend to exhibit.

See, we like discussion. We like the ability to confront YECs on what we feel are their ignorant beliefs. Some of you are great and are willing to consider evidence. Many of the creationists here are not. This is incredibly frustrating. We spend a lot of time (the vast majority of the time, we put far more effort into our posts than creationists) developing arguments that creationists can understand and won't be scared off by, but most of the time these arguments are ignored.

The result of this is that creationists develop a reputation for ignoring criticism or any arguments to the contrary. This is unconscionable in a debate. Unconscionable.

As if this wasn't bad enough, then we see creationists clamoring for a total lock-down on their own sub-forum (whereas TEs are demanding total openness in theirs). From our perspective, not only are creationists, on the whole, unwilling to give our arguments the time and respect they deserve, but they aren't willing to listen to us period. They appear so incredibly entrenched in their own beliefs that the very act of critical challenge is offensive to them.

You cannot participate in a debate forum if you are not willing to have your viewpoint critically challenged. We very frequently get creationists in here (hit-n-runners) who post nonsense and then run. We end up spending large amounts of time refuting their nonsense posts because if we don't it could appear to others on the fence like their arguments have merit if they aren't refuted.

This sucks for us. We're not being hostile for the sake of being hostile. It's justified, in our minds. Our hard work, all of our valid arguments, all of those minutes and hours we spend working on the discussion seem completely wasted.

So retreat into your creationist sub-forum all you want. You're safe there. Your beliefs, however wrong, will not be challenged. You can pat each other on the back all day long and chat about how ridiculous your personal misconceptions of evolution are. But you won't get anywhere. Your faith will remain fragile (for everything I've experienced here for the last two years has taught me that most creationists have rather fragile faith). You won't be educated. And, above all, your viewpoints will not be respected. You might receive respect, but your position on origins will not, your debate tactics will not, and your level of intellectual honesty will not.

laptoppop, we know there are educated YECs. We know there are intelligent YECs. We know there are YECs who are both educated and intelligent. But they are still incorrect. Something is wrong there. Perhaps they are intelligent, but close-minded. Perhaps they are educated, but dogmatic.

We know you're wrong. This isn't some moral argument with gray area we can't objectively examine. This is cut-and-dry. Evolution is the way it happened. The earth is old. There is a reason that, in these discussions, the vast majority of the time creationists become theistic evolutionists. It doesn't happen the other way around often enough to matter. The evidence is clear. There aren't multiple interpretations. There's one conclusion. One. Science doesn't allow for "multiple interpretations".

We don't get it. I live in California. No one I talk to understands creationists. We can't fathom that you don't respect science. And don't act like it's just evolution you don't respect. You don't respect cosmology. You don't respect biology. You don't respect geology. You don't respect archeology. In fact, you don't respect the scientific method in general. There isn't a single field of science you can be said to respect. You're alien to us. Sometimes talking to a creationist is like talking to someone who speaks another language. We win our arguments. Legitimately. We win our debates, legitimately.

In conclusion, please deal with it. Yeah, your beliefs are under attack. They're wrong, and this is a debate forum. You retreat behind the protective curtain of the sub-forum because having your beliefs legitimately challenged is making you uncomfortable or frustrated. You shouldn't even get to that point. The fact that your beliefs are being legitimately challenged should be setting off little red warning lights and sirens inside your head.

We'll take our slippers and soft gloves to discussions with new creationists who haven't demonstrated an unwillingness to listen to the other side, but when someone we know won't listen starts a thread with some ridiculous attack on evolutionary theory, we will come down hard. We will shred that argument to pieces and leave the tatters for everyone to see, because that's what the argument deserves.

If you want a better situation here, do something about it.

Floodnut posted this in the creationist sub-forum:

In all the other subforums of CF, I have never seen as much ridicule, dissing, mockery, and belittling as goes on here against YECs.

This is a divisive subject, but you're exaggerating anyway.

It is almost a given that it is acceptable to question the honesty, sanity, and intelligence of those who hold the view.

I have to question something about someone who holds something that is false to be true. Dishonesty, stupidity, insanity or ignorance. Pick whichever one fits. We usually assume that ignorance is to blame, because we're nice people.

Threads are always disrupted by interlopers who DO NOT BELIEVE that the Bible teaches that God created all things out of nothing about 6000 years ago in SIX DAYS.

It's called Theistic Evolution. There's a lot of us. More than you, in fact. Stop acting incredulous. If anyone should be taken aback by the beliefs of others, it's us. How in the world can you deny solid science arbitrarily?

If you ask for biblical discussion it mostly comes down to showing "evidences" that the Bible is unreliable and impossible to interpret in any sensible manner.

I don't recall any TE claiming that it's impossible to interpret the Bible in a sensible manner. Please maintain a certain level of honesty, even in your own sub-forum. I know you can't be directly challenged there, but that doesn't give you free reign to lie about us.

Attacks on the Bible are relentless,

WE DON'T ATTACK THE BIBLE. Stop it. We attack your fallacious views. Nothing more. You interpret the Bible incorrectly. Your viewpoint is wrong. That's what we're attacking.

and elevating of THE SCIENCE OF EVOLUTION is paramount.

It's pretty important, yeah, considering it's the fundamental difference between our two viewpoints. Although it's really all science, not just evolution.

The one is always put against the other.

Yeah. Your interpretation of the Bible is incompatible with the real world. It doesn't work. Of course it's going to be put against the other.

The rest of his post isn't that important to my point, so I won't continue further with it.

 

[Scotishfury09]

I may be overstepping a few bounds here, but I feel like it should be said. Dannager, I find you to be one of the most belligerent posters on CF, period. Maybe a little more kindness, please?

Yeah, we're not a big fan of the fortress mentality creationists tend to exhibit.

We're not fans of being ridiculed, insulted, and generalized.

See, we like discussion. We like the ability to confront YECs on what we feel are their ignorant beliefs. Some of you are great and are willing to consider evidence. Many of the creationists here are not. This is incredibly frustrating.

Dannager, we all like discussion too. None of us would be on here if we didn't. You can confront us in the OT forum. No one said you couldn't. The Creationist sub-forum was never a place for that anyways.

We spend a lot of time (the vast majority of the time, we put far more effort into our posts than creationists) developing arguments that creationists can understand and won't be scared off by, but most of the time these arguments are ignored.

Another demeaning generality. You're insulting all YECs with your assumption that you must put your posts into a simple form so we can understand them. Stop.

The result of this is that creationists develop a reputation for ignoring criticism or any arguments to the contrary. This is unconscionable in a debate. Unconscionable.

I am new to CF and the entire TE vs. YEC debate in general and can't possibly know all that has happened in the past, but from your recent paragraph I assume they're just tired of your insults.

As if this wasn't bad enough, then we see creationists clamoring for a total lock-down on their own sub-forum (whereas TEs are demanding total openness in theirs). From our perspective, not only are creationists, on the whole, unwilling to give our arguments the time and respect they deserve, but they aren't willing to listen to us period. They appear so incredibly entrenched in their own beliefs that the very act of critical challenge is offensive to them.

More stereotypes and more rudeness (I'm starting to wonder if you even read laptoppop's post in the first place). The creationist sub-forum was a place for creationists and fellowship posts by TEs. If you want to discuss other matters, post it in the OT forum. As far as I know no one has stopped posting in OT and stayed in the sub-forum. Stop acting like we're hiding in our little fortress. We're tired of it. Understand that that isn't the place to talk about such matters.

You cannot participate in a debate forum if you are not willing to have your viewpoint critically challenged. We very frequently get creationists in here (hit-n-runners) who post nonsense and then run. We end up spending large amounts of time refuting their nonsense posts because if we don't it could appear to others on the fence like their arguments have merit if they aren't refuted.

I'm sorry that happens. I truly am, but you shouldn't blame us for that. We get some of the same from the other side too, although not as much.

This sucks for us. We're not being hostile for the sake of being hostile. It's justified, in our minds. Our hard work, all of our valid arguments, all of those minutes and hours we spend working on the discussion seem completely wasted.

That's the problem. You still are hostile. That should never be an option. Can't you see that's what we don't like? It should never be a justifiable option. Ever.

So retreat into your creationist sub-forum all you want. You're safe there. Your beliefs, however wrong, will not be challenged. You can pat each other on the back all day long and chat about how ridiculous your personal misconceptions of evolution are. But you won't get anywhere. Your faith will remain fragile (for everything I've experienced here for the last two years has taught me that most creationists have rather fragile faith). You won't be educated. And, above all, your viewpoints will not be respected. You might receive respect, but your position on origins will not, your debate tactics will not, and your level of intellectual honesty will not.

I really appreciate your respect for my faith. I want you to know that I respect your faith as a Christian. You wouldn't be here defending it so adamantly if it wasn't sincere and stong, but you could use some tact and some cordiality.

Like I said earlier, no one has stopped posting in the OT. We don't want to close the sub-forum so we can stop posting in the OT forum. We want it closed because of the abuse that has been happening in it.

laptoppop, we know there are educated YECs. We know there are intelligent YECs. We know there are YECs who are both educated and intelligent. But they are still incorrect. Something is wrong there. Perhaps they are intelligent, but close-minded. Perhaps they are educated, but dogmatic.

I'm happy that you are so unquestionable in your faith about TE.

We know you're wrong. This isn't some moral argument with gray area we can't objectively examine. This is cut-and-dry. Evolution is the way it happened. The earth is old. There is a reason that, in these discussions, the vast majority of the time creationists become theistic evolutionists. It doesn't happen the other way around often enough to matter. The evidence is clear. There aren't multiple interpretations. There's one conclusion. One. Science doesn't allow for "multiple interpretations".

People do not walk on water. One man cannot resurrect another man.

We don't get it. I live in California. No one I talk to understands creationists. We can't fathom that you don't respect science. And don't act like it's just evolution you don't respect. You don't respect cosmology. You don't respect biology. You don't respect geology. You don't respect archeology. In fact, you don't respect the scientific method in general. There isn't a single field of science you can be said to respect. You're alien to us. Sometimes talking to a creationist is like talking to someone who speaks another language. We win our arguments. Legitimately. We win our debates, legitimately.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't participate in much of the scientific debates in this forum because, frankly, I don't understand a whole lot if it. I do, however, respect scripture.

In conclusion, please deal with it. Yeah, your beliefs are under attack. They're wrong, and this is a debate forum. You retreat behind the protective curtain of the sub-forum because having your beliefs legitimately challenged is making you uncomfortable or frustrated. You shouldn't even get to that point. The fact that your beliefs are being legitimately challenged should be setting off little red warning lights and sirens inside your head.

Deal with insults? No thanks. We understand this to be a debate forum, we're all debating, whether you see it as such or not.

We'll take our slippers and soft gloves to discussions with new creationists who haven't demonstrated an unwillingness to listen to the other side, but when someone we know won't listen starts a thread with some ridiculous attack on evolutionary theory, we will come down hard. We will shred that argument to pieces and leave the tatters for everyone to see, because that's what the argument deserves.

I for one appreciate the slipper and soft gloves, but I'm fairly confident in saying that no one wants you to stop debating. We want you to stop generalizing and insulting.

If you want a better situation here, do something about it.

By asking you to stop insulting and generalizing us? I think it's been done. What else should we do?

In conclusion, I think I should leave you with some words of wisdom from Paul:

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

1 Corinthians 13: 1-7

Dannager, I recognize your brilliance and love for the Lord, but I pray that you find some compassion in your future posts.

 

[shernren]

I know that creationism is wrong and yet I feel for creationists. The head-heart dichotomy is rarely useful; the fact that I can use it here is telling.

Personally, whenever I find myself reconsidering and rewording my posts to be less harsh (and believe me, that happens a lot), it is never out of respect for creationism itself. There may be many personal reasons to accept creationism but none of them hold water to me. If it was just about creationism then I wouldn't hold any punches. But I am talking to creationists here.

What motivates me to hold my punches is the doctrine of accommodating the weaker brother preached by Paul. And before laptoppop puts me on ignore let me explain myself. Anyone can guess why a TE would consider a YEC the weaker brother: their faith position is simply unsubstantiated by real physical evidence, according to the TE. But it's becoming clear to me that in some ways we TEs may be the weak ones. For why do we raise such a hue and cry? Is it not because we are ultimately afraid that a faith built on shoddy evidence will fall? But this underestimates the Giver of our faith. For when Peter called Christ "Lord", He replied that it was not human revelation that made this clear; Jesus promised that no-one could snatch His sheep out of His hand, and Paul affirmed this by stating that nothing can separate us from the love of Jesus Christ.

Some do fall away from the faith over evolution, and we can indeed take steps to prevent that happening with our fellow sheep and on occasion in our flocks. But perhaps there comes a point where, in reasoning with a fellow Christian, one has to stop interacting on the premise that creationism is a danger to his/her faith - not because it isn't, but because God is larger than all threats to the faith, and there has to come a point when human measures do not really matter.

YECs, don't begrudge us for the freedom we enjoy in partaking of things you consider wicked. But we do not need to flaunt our freedom to them, nor do we need to lord it over them as if their salvation or credibility depends on us instead of ultimately on God.

 

[Dannager]

I may be overstepping a few bounds here, but I feel like it should be said. Dannager, I find you to be one of the most belligerent posters on CF, period. Maybe a little more kindness, please?

I'm sorry your sensibilities were offended, Scotishfury09. However, given that my interaction with you has been next to nothing, I'm not sure you're qualified to make that judgment. If you were somehow injured by my message, you might want to ask yourself why that is.

We're not fans of being ridiculed, insulted, and generalized.

So I've heard. But that's a cop-out, Scotishfury09. If you feel that in the course of having creationists' behavior and material properly criticized and discussed that you were ridiculed, insulted or generalized, you may need to adjust your sensitivity. Nothing that I said was unwarranted.

Dannager, we all like discussion too.

Oh, you might. But a lot of creationists don't.

None of us would be on here if we didn't.

Careful, that's a half-truth. You see, there are countless creationists that I've had the pleasure of interacting with over the last couple of years. Many of them were not interested in discussion, but they participated here anyway. Do you know what they did, Scotishfury09? They came to this board, started a thread full of nonsense, were refuted about two dozen times by the end of the day, and never returned to discuss anything. So yes, you might be interested in discussion. A lot of your fellow creationists are not.

You can confront us in the OT forum.

Oh, I do.

No one said you couldn't. The Creationist sub-forum was never a place for that anyways.

And nor should it be. But the creationist sub-forum has now been walled off because creationists want a safe place to hide. It's not the fact that you're walling yourselves off that bothers me. It's the fact that you're doing it because you are not comfortable having your views confronted.

We TEs use our sub-forum to discuss the mentality of creationists. We strategize, develop ways to effectively debate with you, and casually joke. Our sub-forum works like a meeting room. Your sub-forum works like a support group. How can you not see that this disparity is critical?

Another demeaning generality. You're insulting all YECs with your assumption that you must put your posts into a simple form so we can understand them.

A lot of creationists don't understand them unless we take time to explain it. It's not an insult, it's the truth. Most creationists haven't a clue how evolution actually works. That's reality. And believe me, I would avoid using these kinds of generalizations to describe creationists if creationists decided to police themselves a little. But that doesn't happen. We TEs correct each other on getting information wrong all the time. Creationists almost never do. I've seen a creationist start a thread in the creationist sub-forum with a PRATT on AiG's Do-Not-Use list, and nothing happens but back-patting. And that's on your sub-forum. That happens in the main OT board all the time, except when it happens here it's the TEs doing every single correction. We do all your work for you.

I am new to CF and the entire TE vs. YEC debate in general and can't possibly know all that has happened in the past, but from your recent paragraph I assume they're just tired of your insults.

Then you haven't been paying close enough attention. Would you like me to link you to some hit-n-run threads? I'd be happy to. Anyway, you'll come around eventually.

More stereotypes and more rudeness

I shared with you our perspective. Would you rather I had not done you that favor? That's what many creationists make themselves out to be in our eyes.

The creationist sub-forum was a place for creationists and fellowship posts by TEs. If you want to discuss other matters, post it in the OT forum.

Oh, I do. Heck, I also rather enjoy cross-posting threads from the creationist-only sub-forum here, so that topics brought up there can be properly discussed.

As far as I know no one has stopped posting in OT and stayed in the sub-forum.

Oh dear.

I think its a great idea, we need a safehouse every once in a while. In fact, I stoped checking up on the creation and evolution forums months ago due to constant flaming, so I will come back and stay if this rule is kept.

It has been so much nicer (safer) here lately!
I have been visiting more regularly since the restriction because I feel safer to voice my opinion without fear of being insulted or losing my faith.

The only thing is, instead of being confronted in the forum, I have received a couple of PM's asking me to explain myself.
Thankfully the exchange was short and polite or else I would have reported it.
Still, if I wanted to be confronted, I would go to their forum.

I don't remember the last time FallingWaters posted in the main OT board. Maybe I just missed it, though. Or Floodnut for that matter.

Stop acting like we're hiding in our little fortress.

I would, but then I hear:

I think its a great idea, we need a safehouse every once in a while.

My bad. It's not a fortress mentality. It's a safehouse mentality.

We're tired of it. Understand that that isn't the place to talk about such matters.

What isn't?

I'm sorry that happens. I truly am, but you shouldn't blame us for that. We get some of the same from the other side too, although not as much.

No, you don't. TE hit-n-runs are a fraction of the wasted threads we get here. And creationists never seem too keen on trying to counter them anyway. No, Scotishfury09. I cannot conceive of how you can complain about TEs ignoring your replies on this board.

That's the problem. You still are hostile.

Yes, we are.

That should never be an option.

When all other recourses have been exhausted, yes it should be. We try civil, first. That usually doesn't work. Creationists tend to not be interested in hearing the other side. So we turn to hostile debate tactics (which, by the way, is acceptable - this is a debate) to demonstrate to whoever is watching that our opponents' arguments are nonsense. We don't use ad hominem attacks, we don't move the goalposts, we don't cite frauds. We refute arguments.

Can't you see that's what we don't like?

I'm quite sure you don't like us dealing with your arguments in the manner they deserve. It discredits your position, makes you feel uncomfortable, and potentially embarrasses you to have brought such an argument so haughtily to the table in the first place without bothering to check up on its validity or asking the forum if it holds any water.

It should never be a justifiable option. Ever.

No, it should be. You just don't want it to be. I realize this may be hard for you to hear, but I'm going to be firm on this. Creationists, for the most part, tend not to be properly equipped for debate. This would be fine, were they not under the impression that they are equipped for debate. The end result is that they post something, have it refuted twelve times, and complain about being insulted and demeaned. Yeah, they should feel a little bad. They came in with a silly argument and it got handed back to them covered in red ink. But we don't have any final drafts here. Nothing is stopping creationists from recognizing where their arguments are lacking and fixing the problem. Most of the time, though, nothing is done.

I really appreciate your respect for my faith.

I have respect for your faith as I have respect for my own. I am concerned for the faith of many creationists because of the demonstrated fragility of their own. I can't count the number of times I've heard (almost verbatim!) "If Genesis isn't literally true then I can't believe in any of the Bible and there is no right or wrong in the world." That's glass faith. Drop it, bump it the wrong way, accidentally hit it with something substantial and it can shatter. Your faith should be like rubber. It should be flexible enough to give a little in the face of legitimate criticism, but it should bounce back as strong as ever in the end. That's what faith should be, and that's not what I see in a lot of creationists.

I want you to know that I respect your faith as a Christian.

And I yours. Don't mistake my concern for a lack of respect.

You wouldn't be here defending it so adamantly if it wasn't sincere and stong, but you could use some tact and some cordiality.

I can be and have been cordial in discussions here. Perhaps I could use with a tad more patience, but after a couple years here I've gotten a decent feel for when it's worth it and when it isn't.

Like I said earlier, no one has stopped posting in the OT. We don't want to close the sub-forum so we can stop posting in the OT forum. We want it closed because of the abuse that has been happening in it.

No, you want it closed so that you have a place to retreat to. That's why you want it closed. The "abuse" you refer to is a forum rule. It's your justification for having it closed, but not the reason. You want what amounts to signs on the door saying "Creationists Only! TEs Keep Out!"

I'm happy that you are so unquestionable in your faith about TE.

See, now you have a problem. I have no "faith" in theistic evolution. My acceptance of a scientific theory involves no faith or unsubstantiated belief. If, tomorrow, evolution is shown to be wrong I will throw it out in favor of whatever replaces it as being valid. That won't happen, in all probability, but if it did, every TE here would do the same thing.

On the other hand, I am unhappy that you are so unquestioning in your faith in young-earth creationism.

People do not walk on water. One man cannot resurrect another man.

Ignoring that your reply had nothing to do with what you quoted, you're right! People don't! We know this! We can throw a person in a lake and he will not walk on top of it. We know that the only way this could have happened as described in the Bible is if God reached down (ostensibly through Christ) and performed a miracle. It is, otherwise, impossible. However, the origin of the current biodiversity of life doesn't work that way. We know how it could have (and did!) happen. It doesn't require (or even make sense with) a literal interpretation of Genesis.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't participate in much of the scientific debates in this forum because, frankly, I don't understand a whole lot if it.

You have dozens of people here willing to give you an education in science at a level that you will both understand and be comfortable with. We have scientists here. People who actually do the research they're talking about. You could probably ask any TE here and they would be more than willing to personally take you aside and teach you how any natural process works, one-on-one. And if they can't, they'll show you someone who can. You could understand any of it if you wanted to.

I do, however, respect scripture.

So do we. Every one of us. But not your interpretation of it.

Deal with insults? No thanks. We understand this to be a debate forum, we're all debating, whether you see it as such or not.

We're not insulting you. We're pointing out the truth and you're choosing to make it into an issue of who is being nice to who. That's not what this is about. We don't want to insult you. I would never willingly insult another creationist for the sake of insulting them. I would certainly consider it in some of my most frustrated moments, but it would blow over within seconds. We're telling it to you how it is, and it's hard for you to handle, we know. But choosing to view it as an insult is the wrong way of going about this. To build on the paper metaphor from earlier, when you were in school and got an essay back from your English teacher with criticism in the margins, were you insulted? Or did you just feel bad that you were criticized, however validly? Was your English teacher trying to insult you, or trying to help you out?

I for one appreciate the slipper and soft gloves, but I'm fairly confident in saying that no one wants you to stop debating. We want you to stop generalizing and insulting.

Generalizing, as long as it's mutually understood that the comment applies only to most of a group and not all, is just fine. When I say that the majority of creationists are not properly educated in basic biology, that's a generalization. It's also the truth. As for insults, that's been addressed.

By asking you to stop insulting and generalizing us? I think it's been done. What else should we do?

Would you like some suggestions? Have a few:

1) Police yourselves. Your level of intellectual honesty would rise a number of notches in our eyes if creationists started correcting other creationists, regularly, when they are obviously misrepresenting something. For example, if a creationist starts a thread on how the second law of thermodynamics proves evolution is false, we'd love to see a creationist jump in and be the first to say "That's actually not true, and it's probably not a good idea to use that argument. Here's why."

2) Don't hide in your sub-forum. Use it to discuss what's going on amongst yourselves, but you serve neither yourself nor your fellow Christians by staying inside your safehouse and never venturing outside. It makes it look like you're too unsure about your beliefs to have them challenged, or that you're really not interested in hearing an opposing view and are content with being in the dark.

3) Listen to what we have to say. Some of us are really pretty smart (mostly the others, I'm still in college ). We spend a lot of time on our arguments, and they're correct. We don't post any refutations that we know to be wrong, ever. We like to check our facts. We take our own intellectual honesty as a matter of pride. We honestly feel bad if we slip up and say something wrong. There have been a couple of times when I've gone off on something that was a non-issue, or provided a refutation that didn't apply because I didn't understand the argument, and I've felt legitimately bad about it.

4) When we provide refutations from TalkOrigins or other such websites, don't discredit the refutation because it comes from TalkOrigins. First, TO is right pretty much 100% of the time. They have an enormous database of great arguments and cite all their references. If a legitimate concern is raised against one of their refutations, the refutation is fixed. And I know you could counter with "Well then don't disparage AiG and ICR!" I'm going to be blunt: they aren't good resources. They're probably the best available to you, but they do not do well in this debate. They can't compete with the science we've got, as hard as they try.

I have a lot more suggestions, but many of them would only be useful to people who are very recent newcomers here (things like no PRATT lists, phrasing arguments in their own words, etc.). I think these are a good place to start. They'd go a long way.

In conclusion, I think I should leave you with some words of wisdom from Paul:

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

1 Corinthians 13: 1-7

Dannager, I recognize your brilliance and love for the Lord, but I pray that you find some compassion in your future posts.

I will think on your words, and I appreciate the response. Perhaps I am a tad jaded, and that's showing. There is a place for compassion, I believe. That place is almost everywhere, and almost every time. But there is a place for being blunt and honest even if it's hard to hear. This was the place for that, I believe. I've stated my perceptions as carefully and thoughtfully as I can.

As loathe as I am to use a good-guy, bad-guy scheme, you're one of the good guys, Scotishfury09. You want discussion. Most of what I've said doesn't apply to you. Most of what I said doesn't apply to many of the regular creationists here. But even if it doesn't apply to you, there are ways you can help.

 

[laptoppop]

Discussion says "We are both reasonable people and I want to interact with you. We both may learn something, if nothing else, we may learn more about each other."

Criticism says "I'm right, you're wrong."

In the context of these forums, I would submit that discussion is what we want, never criticism.

Ignorance says "All/most *** say/feel/think ****"
Resepect says "Have you considered *****? I think it applies because *****."

In the context of these forums, I would submit that respect is what we want, never ignorance.

 

[Melethiel]

Dannager has given a list of specific suggestions he feels YECs should consider. I am curious if any YEC has a similar list for us TEs.

People on both sides of this issue have a tendency to become both hostile and defensive when confronted with hostility. This does not help proper discussion. I know I have played my own fair share in contributing to the hostility, and for that, I apologize.

 

[SuperSaint4GodDBZStyle]

Well, I have been shouted down by Evolutionist in general and also TE's just by using Kent Hovind's seminars. A lot of that stuff aboutKent Hovind I didn't know about him until they showed me sites and stuff. I still like Kent Hovind no matter what anybody says. But I try not use some of his theories as much as I used to. I do listen to other YEC scientists such as Dr. Donald Chittick a physical chemist, Dr. John McCay president of Answers in Genesis, (I think I got to look back at that) , Dr. Steve Wolfe a geologist, Dr.Ray Rempt a physicist, Dr. Jobe Martin a biologist and former dentist. I do some of my own studies in microbiology also. That's what I'm going to in life Microbiology. I got some bangin ideas to help us on this earth and won't tell just anybody.

 

[laptoppop]

Dannager has given a list of specific suggestions he feels YECs should consider. I am curious if any YEC has a similar list for us TEs.

Much of Dannager's "list" came off to me as arrogant, rude, insulting, and generalizing YECs as a monolithic group. Perhaps you could rephrase it as specifics that would be more reasonable to respond to.

I don't like generalizing lists overall -- I prefer to talk about what we *all* need to do in order to show more respect and love to each other as the Body of Christ. Our assumptions should start with "These are reasonable intelligent people who love the Lord. I may disagree with them. I don't think I am, but I may be wrong, and I need to maintain humility, civility, and even some humor in my conversation."

 

[SuperSaint4GodDBZStyle]

Dannager, your posts are too long. What other things do you do?