green power question?(follow up to bio deisel)

[Billnew]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-03-09-eu_N.htm?csp=34

England announced an "ambitious plan".

Seizing the initiative on global warming, European Union leaders agreed Friday to fight climate change with more windmills, solar panels and efficient light bulbs, pledging that a fifth of the bloc's energy will come from green power by 2020.

Same question as BIO-Deisel thread,
Why isn't the rich global warming people investing or starting windmills fields, solar energy plants, and other energy replacements?

If it's so efficent why have goverment do it?
Once the initial investment is made it won't be much to
keep them going. In the south(Where libs reign(california)), they could have solar and wind power generators, or at least offer them for sale to the public.
I have looked into a windmill generator, they are either very expensive or a junk yard special.

Some sea side property may have to given up to these wind farms, because the wind off the ocean is nearly constant.
Anther "why aren't they putting their money where their mouth is, instead of trying to get Uncle Sam to fit the bill.

 

[Vylo]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-03-09-eu_N.htm?csp=34

England announced an "ambitious plan".


Same question as BIO-Deisel thread,
Why isn't the rich global warming people investing or starting windmills fields, solar energy plants, and other energy replacements?

If it's so efficent why have goverment do it?
Once the initial investment is made it won't be much to
keep them going. In the south(Where libs reign(california)), they could have solar and wind power generators, or at least offer them for sale to the public.
I have looked into a windmill generator, they are either very expensive or a junk yard special.

Some sea side property may have to given up to these wind farms, because the wind off the ocean is nearly constant.
Anther "why aren't they putting their money where their mouth is, instead of trying to get Uncle Sam to fit the bill.

Rich global warming people? Not everyone is Al Gore. And the government isn't doing it, at least not in NJ. We are only running the administrative end, because the power companies were doing a terrible job.

The money comes from power consumers, look on your energy bill for "societal benefits charge", this goes towards programs to help build renewable energy.

 

[Voegelin]

If it's so efficent why have goverment do it?

It limits risk. Notice how many ultra-wealthy liberal families do not actually produce anything. They are specualators, money managers, investment bankers and the such (when they actually participate in the market-- many others find a home in so-called "non-profits").

 

[Mongoose]

I question your notion of "rich global warming people", but I will say that most American "environmentalists" feel they are doing their part by "raising awareness", and are quite content with doing nothing more than flapping their jaws.

I'm not quite sure anyone, including the vast majority of the loud-mouthed greenpeace people, truly understand just how much change and sacrifice needs to be made on both personal and industrial levels to create an environmentally sustainable civilization.

 

[[serious]]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-03-09-eu_N.htm?csp=34

England announced an "ambitious plan".


Same question as BIO-Deisel thread,
Why isn't the rich global warming people investing or starting windmills fields, solar energy plants, and other energy replacements?

how many people, environmentalist or not, do you know that can afford to build ANY power plant?

If it's so efficent why have goverment do it?

they have the resources to make it happen

Once the initial investment is made it won't be much to
keep them going. In the south(Where libs reign(california)), they could have solar and wind power generators, or at least offer them for sale to the public.
I have looked into a windmill generator, they are either very expensive or a junk yard special.

exactly, much like highways, they offer great benefit, but have a large initial investment that makes them prohibative for most people. The governement, however, can act in a unified way on behalf of the masses and allow the people to collectively buy the more efficient system.

Some sea side property may have to given up to these wind farms, because the wind off the ocean is nearly constant.
Anther "why aren't they putting their money where their mouth is, instead of trying to get Uncle Sam to fit the bill.

"Uncle Sam" is "Us". We elect the politicians to act on our behalf for those decisions that must be undertaken as a country. This includes infrastructure management.

 

[Billnew]

unlike the roads and highways, power can be charged for. A power plant will make money. roads can't.

So a group of investors could make money by starting a company.

I am not talking of small time eviromentalists, I am talking of the AL Gore's. The rich people who are calling for Goverment controls, entitlements, and restrictions.

Why not invest in real companies, not the buy back company he uses to pay for his CO usage.

Private business will do a better job then goverment.
Making a profit is a great incentive for ingenuity. But I guess if they didn it, they wouldn't have a way to get Goverment to rule over transportation. Which is what I believe is the true reason for the enviromental movement.

 

[kopilo]

It limits risk. Notice how many ultra-wealthy liberal families do not actually produce anything. They are specualators, money managers, investment bankers and the such (when they actually participate in the market-- many others find a home in so-called "non-profits").

Considering I tend to be left field and my only job is working for a not for profit organisation (AngelAID). I have to ask what you mean by "so called not-profit" and when you are going to realise that generalisations do not fit all people.

 

[Maxwell511]

unlike the roads and highways, power can be charged for. A power plant will make money. roads can't.

Roads and highways can be charged for.

It is a rather simply system actually. Sell the road to a private company or let a private company build it. They install Electronic toll collection and sit and wait for the money to come in.

Now the problem with both this and the power system industry is the expected return on investment. Even for "traditional" power plants it is very difficult to get a good estimate on the return especially due to the possibility of changes in government policy and the entry of new market participants. Banks don't like that because the capital costs are so high.

For example I heard once of this company in Australia that built a transmission line at a high cost to themselves, for the first few years the company was seeing a good enough return and then another company built a line redirecting the flow of power and the initial company lost big. Electricity is a risky business.

 

[Maxwell511]

If it's so efficent why have goverment do it?

For Europe renewable energy is a matter of national security and who is responsible for national security?

Europe cannot continued on an energy policy that puts it at the whim of the Russians because of dependence on their gas and oil.

 

[HouseApe]

Rich liberals won't invest in renewable energy technologies for the same reason that rich conservatives won't: they'll lose all their money. Energy production based upon fossil fuels is already a mature, efficient industry. In order to compete with it utilizing green technologies, you would have to have mature competing companies producing the equipment at the quantities that would allow for efficient economies of scale. That doesn't exist, and it cannot exist as long as petroleum prices are relatively low.

So you have 2 choices: have the government subsidize those companies that produce green technologies as long as it takes to get them to ramp up production to be competitive, or wait for petroleum prices to go so high for so long that the green companies can ramp up. The question is do you want to spend a moderate amount with the government now, or bucket loads with the oil and renewable energy companies later?

Unfortunately, like fixing social security or medicare, we simply aren't smart enough, as a group, to fix this problem. So we will have to pay dearly.

 

[Verv]

To be honest, it is a lot to ask for groups of people to fund their own initiatives if it requires millions upon millions of dollars.

But I do say that I cannot fault all environmentalists at all. There are a lot who truly live by the values that they have, though many of these are not the Hollywood environmentalists whose idea of environmentalism is a donation and doing some eco-tourism, but rather itis very working class people who are the ones that are concerned.

 

[jgarden]

Billnew;32584196]http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-03-09-eu_N.htm?csp=34

...............................Why isn't the rich global warming people investing or starting windmills fields, solar energy plants, and other energy replacements?

How do classify ExxonMobil and the other multinationals who "spoon-feed" the Administration the "self-serving" pseudo-science they want to have to justify their "preconceived" agendas.

Anther "why aren't they putting their money where their mouth is, instead of trying to get Uncle Sam to fit the bill.

Tax cuts, Iraq, Haliburton, re-election funding, military expenditures, soaring debt loads, Scooter Libby's pardon - where will it ever end?

Don't those "global warming" fearmongeres" and those "ungrateful" wounded soldiers at Walter Reed realize that America has its own priorities - and they're not it !!!

 

[ScottishJohn]

I think there are several interesting factors in our use of power in general. I was speaking to a friend of mine who is an architect, and she says that the Building Regulations we have in the UK now are equivalent to those the Swedish brought in in 1936 (I'll have to take her word for it!), in any case, given that it is possible to build homes which are either self sufficient, or practically self sufficient, then why are we not doing more to force developers to plan these kind of homes? Renewable generation is great, but using less energy to do more is even better. I like the microgeneration model where each home supplies much of the energy it consumes through a variety of different sources, and can feed back into the national grid when it has excess power, and can draw down when it has a higher peak. I also think that the planning and siting of power stations needs to be addressed. Wast hot water from power stations can be used to heat entire towns, which is no use if they are hundreds of miles from anywhere.

 

[Maxwell511]

I think there are several interesting factors in our use of power in general. I was speaking to a friend of mine who is an architect, and she says that the Building Regulations we have in the UK now are equivalent to those the Swedish brought in in 1936 (I'll have to take her word for it!), in any case, given that it is possible to build homes which are either self sufficient, or practically self sufficient, then why are we not doing more to force developers to plan these kind of homes?

I assume that it is because most property developers have the council in their pocket. I don't know what the situation is like in Britian though.

Renewable generation is great, but using less energy to do more is even better.

I agree.

I like the microgeneration model where each home supplies much of the energy it consumes through a variety of different sources, and can feed back into the national grid when it has excess power, and can draw down when it has a higher peak.

I not saying I am against this but the fundamental shift on the way that we operate the national grid that is required is so great at the moment with the lack of research that has on into this type of operation I do not think that it is doable at the moment or whether it is even better.

I also think that the planning and siting of power stations needs to be addressed.

This is what my doctorate is on, sort of. But not the way you are thinking. Personally I don't think there is any real planning in evolution of the Grid.

Wast hot water from power stations can be used to heat entire towns, which is no use if they are hundreds of miles from anywhere.

Combined steam and power plants. That's true.

 

[ScottishJohn]

I assume that it is because most property developers have the council in their pocket. I don't know what the situation is like in Britian though.

I expect on the local planning level it is much the same, but Building Regulations are passed as legislation in Westminster, so it takes more than a few bent planners and brown envelopes. I think more than anything it is just plain idleness.

I not saying I am against this but the fundamental shift on the way that we operate the national grid that is required is so great at the moment with the lack of research that has on into this type of operation I do not think that it is doable at the moment or whether it is even better.

I don't know anything about the technical side of it, I know that it happens on a small scale elsewhere, I know of a few churches which have wind turbines which they operate this system with, but I'm not sure how it works or how well it works. It does remove the need for so many large powerstations, and also therefore removes the situation we are in now, where you have several nuclear stations coming to the end of their design life and a huge investment of one kind or another needing to be made.

This is what my doctorate is on, sort of. But not the way you are thinking. Personally I don't think there is any real planning in evolution of the Grid.

That is interesting, I think we've talked about this before, tide and wave generation I think?

 

[Billnew]

Ok, lets not think giant scale.
How about a factory to build Bio diesel kits.

Home bio diesel equipment with instructions on how to make it.
Still sounds like a good money maker, with Diesel being
$2.80 a gallon.( Ithink this was on the Freeway, so it might be high)
1 or 2 tank fulls would probably pay for the kit.

I don't know what you need, and it might be simple things, but the big part is to say everything you need to know and equipment is here to make your own diesel.

 

[ScottishJohn]

Ok, lets not think giant scale.
How about a factory to build Bio diesel kits.

Home bio diesel equipment with instructions on how to make it.
Still sounds like a good money maker, with Diesel being
$2.80 a gallon.( Ithink this was on the Freeway, so it might be high)
1 or 2 tank fulls would probably pay for the kit.

I don't know what you need, and it might be simple things, but the big part is to say everything you need to know and equipment is here to make your own diesel.

Kind of surplus to requirements - all you need is on the net:

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html

(Did you mean to post this on the other thread?)

 

[Maxwell511]

I expect on the local planning level it is much the same, but Building Regulations are passed as legislation in Westminster, so it takes more than a few bent planners and brown envelopes. I think more than anything it is just plain idleness.

I remember when asked at a talk about renewables/alternative energy sources an aide, I think it was, of the Minister stated that the reason nothing seems to be getting done in the area was because that the government was unable to keep up with the advances in technology.

I don't know anything about the technical side of it, I know that it happens on a small scale elsewhere, I know of a few churches which have wind turbines which they operate this system with, but I'm not sure how it works or how well it works.

The technical side can be summed up like this: at any instance the power generated must equal the power consumed if there is too much or too little for a prolonged period of time the system blackouts. With wind not being that predictable it is hard to predict the amount that you can generate in advance which could lead to problems, if you become too dependent on it.

There are other things though I think that new technology has solved most of the problems.

It does remove the need for so many large powerstations, and also therefore removes the situation we are in now, where you have several nuclear stations coming to the end of their design life and a huge investment of one kind or another needing to be made.

Simply cutting down on electricity used and distributing the use over the day could help alot. Not sure if you have seen the ads or they are just on Irish telly. I think though that the trend is moving to distributed generation anyway.

That is interesting, I think we've talked about this before, tide and wave generation I think?

Those were done by lads in my group. I'm more working on stuff that might be considered analogous to city planning.

 

[Billnew]

oops. yes I did.

Good link.