1. Saying Goodbye to a Great Staffer: Edial
    Please help me wish Edial a wonderful blessed journey as he steps down from CF staff.
    His footprint on our ministry will always remain but his presence will be greatly missed. I'm sure he will come around as a member to all his favorite forums but for now please join me at his profile page to wish him many thanks for the years of service he has brought to us all.
    All of us on CF staff will miss him dearly!!
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice

Welcome to Christian Forums, a friendly forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
  • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
  • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting after you have posted 20 posts and have received 5 likes.
  • Access to private conversations with other members.

We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Government Abortion Funding Bill Debated by Senate: Bishops Support Bill

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by KatherineS, Apr 13, 2010.

  1. KatherineS

    KatherineS New Member

    Messages:
    4,077
    Likes Received:
    155
    Marital Status:
    Widow/Widower
    Faith:
    Catholic
    You are saying the bishops should be deposed because they supported the Jobs bill?
     
  2. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote

    Messages:
    23,119
    Likes Received:
    1,821
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Democrat
    Faith:
    Catholic
    Just curious. Since insurance is essentially a "risk pool," would you choose not to participate in your company's insurance plan if it covered abortions or gay partners? After all, all the premiums are going into one pot and are used to pay for covered expenses.

    Do you even know whether these things are covered by your employer's policy?

    I know my hubby's company started covering unmarried partners last year (I think that included heterosexual unmarried partners, too.)

    I don't know whether it covers abortion or not. It does cover birth control.

    But I don't look at our participation in this "risk pool" as subsidizing the abortions or gay partner medical expenses of other employees.
     
  3. Imperiuz

    Imperiuz Freedom ain't free

    Messages:
    2,897
    Likes Received:
    118
    Marital Status:
    Single
    Politics:
    US-Republican
    Faith:
    Catholic
    Any Catholic who obstinately denies that abortion is always gravely immoral, commits the sin of heresy and incurs an automatic sentence of excommunication. So says the catechism.

     
  4. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote

    Messages:
    23,119
    Likes Received:
    1,821
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Democrat
    Faith:
    Catholic
    Employee health insurance has always been voluntary, and certainly, employee dependent health insurance (which most employees have been paying a greater and greater share of) is voluntary.

    They choose it because it protects them from the possibility of catastrophic medical expenses that would wipe them out financially (and perhaps literally) if they were incurred.

    But I don't see the jobs bill extension as supporting abortion. If the government gives individuals a subsidy to purchase COBRA insurance, and the individuals send that money in with their monthly COBRA check, the government is not supporting the "risk pool" that may or may not cover abortions or gay partners. The purchasers are.

    And I don't worry about our contributions to our health care policy because I have a sexagenarian spouse with pre-existing conditions, so we have gotten back more than we've put in, personally, for a number of years.
     
  5. KatherineS

    KatherineS New Member

    Messages:
    4,077
    Likes Received:
    155
    Marital Status:
    Widow/Widower
    Faith:
    Catholic

    Are you saying that because the bishops supported the Jobs bill they are now excommunicate and we are released from our obligations to them?
     
  6. KatherineS

    KatherineS New Member

    Messages:
    4,077
    Likes Received:
    155
    Marital Status:
    Widow/Widower
    Faith:
    Catholic
    By the way, the Senate just passed this bill.
     
  7. Davidnic

    Davidnic Have Fun Supporter

    Messages:
    19,862
    Likes Received:
    2,308
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Catholic

    You are aware his understanding of canon law in this case is imperfect at best. Automatic excommunication under canon 1398 without applying canon 1323 or 1321. He is also not taking into account the factors of formal, informal and remote material cooperation.
     
  8. KatherineS

    KatherineS New Member

    Messages:
    4,077
    Likes Received:
    155
    Marital Status:
    Widow/Widower
    Faith:
    Catholic
    Yes, I appreciate that, David. I was trying to understand his thinking. I had concluded his thinking was in error.
     
  9. Davidnic

    Davidnic Have Fun Supporter

    Messages:
    19,862
    Likes Received:
    2,308
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Catholic
    Figured you had, I wanted a factual post up for the lurkers who don't post but read and go away thinking something is right. The entire discussion of can someone be in remote material cooperation with evil and what that entails is fascinating in moral theology, but pretty thick. People love to pull out canon 1398 as if they are canon lawyers or quote a canon lawyer who uses it. But when a canon lawyer uses it they know about the mitigating canons so they do not cite them, they know that apply.

    An example. A priest who uses the confessional to solicit sex, usually, with the promise to absolve the companion (as happened in the abuse crisis many times) is automatically excommunicated under canon 1378 because it cites violations of canon 977 (that forbids the above) as grounds for latae sententiae excommunication. Just like canon 1398 counts it for those who procure or assist in procuring a successful abortion. But both canons are subject to the mitigating factors of canons 1321-1324. Those canons cite things like mental disorders, lack of use of reason, grave fear, coercion and a bunch of other things. That usually means that it is very hard to get automatically excommunicated. In fact in aboriton I would argue 99.9% of the time the woman meets some aspect of canons 1321-1324 that mitigates the canonical issue immediately (usually grave fear, lack of full reason due to such or outside coercion or manipulation). In those cases, it is almost always the abortionist who would incur latae sententiae because far from being covered by 1321-24, they are exploiting the conditions described.

    Sorry for rambling but uncharitable misunderstandings of canon 1398 can hurt many people.
     
  10. KatherineS

    KatherineS New Member

    Messages:
    4,077
    Likes Received:
    155
    Marital Status:
    Widow/Widower
    Faith:
    Catholic
    Yes, David. I agree with and appreciate your thoughts.
     
  11. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote

    Messages:
    23,119
    Likes Received:
    1,821
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Democrat
    Faith:
    Catholic
    But David, do you believe that if the federal government gives, in addition to extended unemployment benefits, a cash stipend representing 65% of a COBRA payment, that that is materially cooperating in abortion?

    Even remotely?

    You could give your niece a $25 check for Christmas and she could put it towards an abortion if she were pregnant...does that mean you materially cooperated?

    People could take tax refunds, or earned income tax credits, or Social Security survivors' benefits....and use the money to procure an abortion.

    When that money leaves the government's hands, the responsibility for how it is used is vested with the person who receives it, not the government.
     
  12. Davidnic

    Davidnic Have Fun Supporter

    Messages:
    19,862
    Likes Received:
    2,308
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Catholic
    No because remote material cooperation has several factors, very much like mediate material that are not met here. This is different from the health care bill where members of congress said: "We want this to cover abortion" like waxman (who had a huge hand in writing it) said directly to stupak. So in one case a primary writer said the intention was to further abortion where it would would not be available otherwise.
     
  13. KatherineS

    KatherineS New Member

    Messages:
    4,077
    Likes Received:
    155
    Marital Status:
    Widow/Widower
    Faith:
    Catholic
    Chairman Waxman also said he wanted single payer and a public option. That is hardly proof those things are law now.
     
  14. Davidnic

    Davidnic Have Fun Supporter

    Messages:
    19,862
    Likes Received:
    2,308
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Catholic

    My point was the difference in intention as far as determining levels of cooperation because of intention to cooperate in sin. Not an argument for whether or not the HC law provides for abortions. Honestly the two sides on that will not settle until either the first covered abortions happen and there is billing proof or they do not.
     
Loading...