God's permissive will?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Where do people get the idea of a "permissive" will of God? How does this affect how God runs things?

Isn't everything that happens according to God's perfect and Holy will? If there was a permissive will of God than not only would God not be sovereign over all things but it implys that God has a perfect will but somehow man is powerful enough to break God's perfect will and can break his perfect will by God merely "allowing" x to happen?

The Bible says that God is sovereign over all things. To me adding a permissive will to God's perfect will elevates mankind over God's will. But, I'm mostly curious about this phenomenon.

"Permissive will" is not found in the Bible.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Like it or not, Calvinism is a type of fatalism.

fatalism​

noun​

fa·tal·ism ˈfā-tə-ˌli-zəm

: a doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them

Yes, God does whatever He wants and in Psalms 115:16 He gave the earth to man. That could not be said if God puppets our actions as Calvin teaches.

You reject what 1 Timothy 2:4 plainly says based upon a faulty presupposition that if God really wants something, then proof of what He wants is found in what He gets. Have you considered that God leaves some decisions up to people (i.e. free will) which can go against God's desire? So instead of casting away an assumption that contradicts scripture, you reject scripture (I provide more examples later). Calvinists. like yourself, believe if God really wants a certain thing, then He gets a certain thing. However, as a non-Calvinist, I believe that Jesus sincerely desires everyone to come to know Him (also in 1 Timothy 2:4), but just because I don’t believe that He forces His love on to everyone, doesn’t mean that I question His sincerity. I believe that God wants everyone to be saved freely. Nevertheless, you and other Calvinists assume your own premise, as a fact, in order to reach a Calvinistic conclusion. In order to avoid Circular Logic, Calvinists should first attempt to prove that God always gets what He wants, rather than just assuming that God gets what He wants 100% of the time. Non-Calvinists argue from Ezekiel 18:23 and Matthew 6:10 that God Himself testifies that His will is not presently being done on earth, as it is in Heaven, though one day it will.

Calvinists twist scripture to conform to their presuppositions. There are many NT scriptures that reference terms translated as "world", "everyone", "all men", "all people", and "all" where the plain meaning is "all people without exception". Here are some underlined examples in the NIV, where Calvinists commonly do not accept those terms to mean "all people without exception". In some of these examples where I cite all multiple times in the passage, Calvinists will commonly cling to an "all men without exception" for the first use, but not in subsequent uses (See 1 Timothy 2:1-6, 1 Corinthians 15:22, Romans 11:32, and Romans 5:18) - even though the same greek words are repeated - you can't have it both ways. These are the examples I found, there are probably others.

1. 1 Timothy 4:10 God is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
2. 1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
3. 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
4. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
5. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
6. John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
7. 1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
8. Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
9. Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
10. Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.,
11. Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

You repeatedly push that God forces everything that ever happens per your "first cause" philosophic argument. There is no scripture that states that God decreed the eternal destiny of all individuals (heaven or hell). Concerning predestination: Scripture says that those who believe on Jesus (i.e. In Jesus) are predestined to adoption as sons (Ephesians 1).

Given your hundreds of posts on this forum that coincide with Calvin's doctrine, it is well past time that you and your posse (@Clare73) become conversant on the roots of the Calvinism you preach. If it walks, quacks, swims, and flies like a duck, its a duck.

Calvin states that God governs our will and our movements. And although we have an impression that we make our own choices - if indeed God, who is omnipotent, is governing our will and movements, then our actions are indeed forced by God!

You state you do not follow Calvin and yet amazingly your preaching lines up with such. Here you are posting hundreds of times on Theological forums preaching doctrine that lines up with Calvin's, stating your empathy with Calvin, all the while pleading ignorance as to his doctrine. And yet you tell us you have no curiosity as to what the Reformed and Calvin teaches even as you continue to post in their favor.

Either we are in charge of our decisions or someone else is. If God is ordaining all things, then God, not us, is in charge of our decisions. No one can make a decision that contradicts what God ordains for us to do. If people do not have the ability to choose between two or more options (due to what God ordained), then only God has the ability to make our choices.

That reminds of this from R. C. Sproul- where he appears to be half joking. He should have listened to his intuition (underlined).

“I no longer feared the demons of fatalism or the ugly thought that I was being reduced to a puppet. Now I rejoiced in a gracious Savior who alone was immortal, invisible, the only wise God.” (R. C. Sproul, Chosen by God)​

Seriously, you find the quotes of Calvin that demonstrate that God predestines some people to hell before they are born in order to gain glory to be rich and comforting. I find that contrary to God's nature which is love, mercy, and justice. My doctrinal position relies on what the Bible says. Jesus came to give life. God who is the savior of all men (1 Timothy 4:10) cannot be the savior of all men if he is also in the business of predestining anyone to hell.

FYI: Sadly, not all men are saved because many of their free-will reject God's offered salvation.

No scripture says that God created Satan in order to rebel - that was on Satan as God tempts no one (James 1:13). Calvinists believe everything that happens is because God caused it by His design - that's not Bible - that's fatalism.

I sincerely hope you can begin to see that the dictionaries only define what WE mean by things we say. The words in the dictionaries do not establish truth.

As for the rest of what you wrote, I saw vain repetition, and false representation. I've had enough for now, what with (currently) only having my phone upon which to type. Go with God.

 

[John Mullally]

I sincerely hope you can begin to see that the dictionaries only define what WE mean by things we say. The words in the dictionaries do not establish truth.

Your arguments with me are commonly over my not using your preferred synonymous words when identifying problems in Calvinism. So I recently used a dictionary definition to confirm my point as language is important. But your rejection of the use of a dictionary identifies the real problem (using word games to dodge arguments). And that dodging is confirmed from another exchange you had with someone else on this thread.

What is the difference between a decree and a command? And how can man go against God's will if man's will is caused by God's will? Either man's will necessarily follows God's will for him, or God does not cause man's will.

decree​

verb​

​

transitive verb​

​

: to command or enjoin by or as if by decree​

All the difference in the world! God's command is what is required of man. God's decree is what God will do, which is, everything that comes to pass. Man can go against the command, but no matter how hard he might intend it, he cannot go against God's decree; even man's disobedience of God's command works into God's decree. They are two different things, both called 'will' at different places in Scripture.

Decree and command are synonyms, so it seems to me you're using an invention of men. You also remain inconsistent, because you say man is "disobedient" yet it is God who is the one behind man's disobedience, since man only chooses what God has "decreed". I also can't help but notice you railing against an entirely different topic, one we disagree on as well but that's beside the matter, and completely ignoring the necessary order. There is no twist, it's quite straightforward. If all of man's choices are caused by God, and some of man's choices are sinful, then God causes sin. No amount of word games will dissolve that fact, and simply declaring it not to be the case doesn't change it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Your arguments with me are commonly over my not using your preferred synonymous words when identifying problems in Calvinism. So I recently used a dictionary definition to confirm my point as language is important. But your rejection of the use of a dictionary identifies the real problem (using word games to dodge arguments). And that dodging is confirmed from another exchange you had with someone else on this thread.

decree​

verb​

​

transitive verb​

​

: to command or enjoin by or as if by decree​

Did you read my response to that?

 

[John Mullally]

Did you read my response to that?

Yes. Dictionaries do not establish truth, but they are sometimes useful to reference when battling double-speak sophistry - like where Calvinists say that God decrees every man's action and yet also holds man responsible for sin. NO! God is not duplicitous - He is Holy, Holy, Holy (Revelation 4:8-11) - thus God is not causing anyone to sin (by any method). Also, how can God give the earth to man in Psalms 115:16, if God is controlling man's every action?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes. Dictionaries do not establish truth, but they are sometimes useful to reference when battling double-speak sophistry - like where Calvinists say that God decrees every man's action and yet also holds man responsible for sin. NO! God is not duplicitous - He is Holy, Holy, Holy (Revelation 4:8-11) - thus God is not causing anyone to sin (by any method). Also, how can God give the earth to man in Psalms 115:16, if God is controlling man's every action?

So, once again, you have sin happening by accident. Not only a second first cause, but a self-contradictory second first cause.

 

[John Mullally]

So, once again, you have sin happening by accident. Not only a second first cause, but a self-contradictory second first cause.

So once again, you avoid addressing the vile (because it slanders God) Calvinist argument (which you support) that God causes people to sin (as per Calvin, God predetermines all behavior) while holding people accountable for sin. When God causes people to sin, they cannot do otherwise. Its like blaming the gun for a murder.

As you should know, Calvin taught on first and secondary causes, but I don't find any such discussion in the Bible. I am not interested in such metaphysics. We do not have to be controlled by external circumstances. The Bible's directives are given to us because we are sentient beings born with a conscience which we can decide to listen to. At least in the early stages, we recognize when we conform to our conscience or violate it (Romans 2:14-15). Frequent violation of conscience destroys it (1 Timothy 4:2).

 

[Mark Quayle]

So once again, you avoid addressing the vile (because it slanders God) Calvinist argument (which you support) that God causes people to sin (as per Calvin, God predetermines all behavior) while holding people accountable for sin. When God causes people to sin, they cannot do otherwise. Its like blaming the gun for a murder.

As you should know, Calvin taught on first and secondary causes, but I don't find any such discussion in the Bible. I am not interested in such metaphysics. We do not have to be controlled by external circumstances. The Bible's directives are given to us because we are sentient beings born with a conscience which we can decide to listen to. At least in the early stages, we recognize when we conform to our conscience or violate it (Romans 2:14-15). Frequent violation of conscience destroys it (1 Timothy 4:2).

And you continue to blame, rather than to praise God, for his doings. The sinner WILLS not to do otherwise. And that easily your objection is answered. Yet you have no answer to my objection to your construction.

 

[Fervent]

And you continue to blame, rather than to praise God, for his doings. The sinner WILLS not to do otherwise. And that easily your objection is answered. Yet you have no answer to my objection to your construction.

If that is so, it is only because of God's decree that the sinner blames Him. There is no reason to take your argument seriously, because if it is true we can't believe it since God has apparently decreed us not to. But if we can reject it of our own will, then we are compelled to because it not only is logically inconsistent but it also maligns God by making Him the author of sin.

 

[John Mullally]

And you continue to blame, rather than to praise God, for his doings.

What are God's doings? Is it everything that happens - even the works of the devil that Jesus came to destroy (1 John 3:8), and the sins of the world that Christ came to take away (John 1:29)? Jesus is not working against the Father. There are scriptures that express God's regret that people acted in the way they did (Genesis 6:6, Matthew 23:37-39). In Calvinism, if God really wants something, then proof of what He wants is found in what He gets. If God really wants a certain thing, then He gets a certain thing and thus Calvinists assume that everything that happens is God's doing - even Auschwitz. However, as a non-Calvinist, I believe that Jesus sincerely desires everyone to come to know Him (1 Timothy 2:4), but just because I don’t believe that He forces His love on to everyone, doesn’t mean that I question His sincerity. I believe that God wants everyone to be saved freely. Nevertheless, Calvinists assume their own premise, as a fact, in order to reach a Calvinistic conclusion. In order to avoid Circular Logic, Calvinists should first attempt to prove that God always gets what He wants, rather than just assuming it. Non-Calvinists argue from Ezekiel 18:23 and Matthew 6:10 that God Himself testifies that His will is not presently being done on earth, as it is in Heaven, though one day it will.

The sinner WILLS not to do otherwise. And that easily your objection is answered. Yet you have no answer to my objection to your construction.

Per Calvin, God not only controls our actions, but also our WILLS. If God controls both our actions and will, we act and desire in a way we cannot avoid. How can people be justly held responsible for unavoidable actions and desires? Only in Calvinism. The fact that Scripture shows that God influences and makes sure of some things (such as Exodus and the Crucifixion), does not mean that God is controlling our every thought and action.

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also .the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)​

 

[Jonaitis]

Where do people get the idea of a "permissive" will of God? How does this affect how God runs things?

Isn't everything that happens according to God's perfect and Holy will? If there was a permissive will of God than not only would God not be sovereign over all things but it implys that God has a perfect will but somehow man is powerful enough to break God's perfect will and can break his perfect will by God merely "allowing" x to happen?

The Bible says that God is sovereign over all things. To me adding a permissive will to God's perfect will elevates mankind over God's will. But, I'm mostly curious about this phenomenon.

God's permissive will is His ultimate and overarching will for the world. It is perfect and holy and absolute. God's directive will is His will for mankind under this ultimate and overarching will; it directs the way He should live in His permissive will.

 

[fhansen]

Where do people get the idea of a "permissive" will of God? How does this affect how God runs things?

Isn't everything that happens according to God's perfect and Holy will? If there was a permissive will of God than not only would God not be sovereign over all things but it implys that God has a perfect will but somehow man is powerful enough to break God's perfect will and can break his perfect will by God merely "allowing" x to happen?

The Bible says that God is sovereign over all things. To me adding a permissive will to God's perfect will elevates mankind over God's will. But, I'm mostly curious about this phenomenon.

Unless God allows sin/evil without being the direct cause of it, then He's the author of sin, and certainly no better than satan in that case: worse, in fact. Definitely not trustworthy or worth following.

 

[John Mullally]

God's permissive will is His ultimate and overarching will for the world. It is perfect and holy and absolute. God's directive will is His will for mankind under this ultimate and overarching will; it directs the way He should live in His permissive will.

This is intended to be informative. I have seen two wills of God expressed by Calvinists and by Charismatics. Of course, by all means do your own research.

Calvinists (commonly communicated - Calvin details this in his writings):

1. Revealed Will of God: What God commands people do in the Bible.
2. Secret Will of God: What God decreed before our time. This is discovered by what happens. So although God commands people not to steal, everytime someone steals, per the Secret Will of God, God long ago decreed they do such.

Charismatics (infrequently communicated from pulpit, but my experience with old timers in the Assemblies of God):

1. Perfect Will of God: What God commands people to do in the Bible and what God desires for us.
2. Permissive Will of God: What God permits because people sin.

In my opinion the two wills of God under Calvin appears to make God duplicitous. Why is God decreeing people do that which is contrary to what God commands people do?

The Charismatic two wills of God shows what Christ has done for us, but which can be forfeited by sin and unwillingness to humbly believe and repent. Calvinists will say this makes God weak.

 

[fhansen]

The Charismatic two wills of God shows what Christ has done for us, but which can be forfeited by sin and unwillingness to humbly believe and repent. Calvinists will say this makes God weak.

This is pretty much aligned with the historic teachings of the ancient churches, the ECFs, and Arminianism which came later on down the road of course.