Gnostic Soteriology

[Longing4Truth]

Last week I started a new series on my site, Longing4Truth, on heresies throughout church history.

You can see the intro post by clicking here.

This week I looked at Gnosticism and how we see Gnosticism in our culture today in the likes of Rob Bell and the Emergent Church movement, Bruce Jenner, and Oprah.

For the Gnostics, salvation is about awakening something within you, not about looking to something outside of you. The content of the Gnostic gospel was an attempt to rouse the soul from its sleep-walking condition and to make it aware of the high destiny to which it is called.​

But what sets Biblical Christianity apart from Gnosticism, among all of the things we have pointed out already, is that in Christ we have the all-Powerful, Sovereign God perfectly revealed to us. We have supreme knowledge available to us in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. Therefore, it is to Him that you and I are to look for salvation — not some hidden knowledge, not in ourselves, but to Him!​

Click here to see the full post. I hope that it is helpful to you.

What about you? Where else have you seen this heresy of Gnosticism in our culture today?

 

[Wgw]

Last week I started a new series on my site, Longing4Truth, on heresies throughout church history.

You can see the intro post by clicking here.

This week I looked at Gnosticism and how we see Gnosticism in our culture today in the likes of Rob Bell and the Emergent Church movement, Bruce Jenner, and Oprah.

For the Gnostics, salvation is about awakening something within you, not about looking to something outside of you. The content of the Gnostic gospel was an attempt to rouse the soul from its sleep-walking condition and to make it aware of the high destiny to which it is called.​

But what sets Biblical Christianity apart from Gnosticism, among all of the things we have pointed out already, is that in Christ we have the all-Powerful, Sovereign God perfectly revealed to us. We have supreme knowledge available to us in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. Therefore, it is to Him that you and I are to look for salvation — not some hidden knowledge, not in ourselves, but to Him!​

Click here to see the full post. I hope that it is helpful to you.

What about you? Where else have you seen this heresy of Gnosticism in our culture today?

Many evangelicals could be described as crypto-Gnostic. Any time posession of knowledge is held to be central to salvation, this is potentially Gnostic.

 

[Butch5]

Last week I started a new series on my site, Longing4Truth, on heresies throughout church history.

You can see the intro post by clicking here.

This week I looked at Gnosticism and how we see Gnosticism in our culture today in the likes of Rob Bell and the Emergent Church movement, Bruce Jenner, and Oprah.

For the Gnostics, salvation is about awakening something within you, not about looking to something outside of you. The content of the Gnostic gospel was an attempt to rouse the soul from its sleep-walking condition and to make it aware of the high destiny to which it is called.​

But what sets Biblical Christianity apart from Gnosticism, among all of the things we have pointed out already, is that in Christ we have the all-Powerful, Sovereign God perfectly revealed to us. We have supreme knowledge available to us in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. Therefore, it is to Him that you and I are to look for salvation — not some hidden knowledge, not in ourselves, but to Him!​

Click here to see the full post. I hope that it is helpful to you.

What about you? Where else have you seen this heresy of Gnosticism in our culture today?

Good post! sadly, I see Gnosticism running rampant in the church today.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Gnosticism comes in many forms - some so outlandish that they would never be accepted by an evangelical Christian at all.

One of the most insidious and one that is the most rampant in evangelical circles is the denial of God's absolute sovereignty in all that happens in His creation - including those things that we consider evil.

Sometimes God's omnipresent sovereignty is denied outright. But usually it is displayed somewhat obliquely in what I would call a sort of "Jeffersonian" view of God's providential control of His creation (or perhaps it would be better to say His lack of providential control of His creation).

Outside of what I would call "Reformed" circles, I see most evangelicals espousing a view of things that seems to believe that God is simply watching from the outside of the universe and leaving the workings of the universe (including the minds and wills of all of His creatures) completely to the creation itself and out of His hands.

The Bible, however, presents the fact that God holds all things together and providentially controls all things by His eternal Word - which has been incarnated in our Lord and Savior.

To state it the way the Word of God states it, "in Him all things consist" and "in Him we live and move and have our being".

Those are pretty comprehensive statements and their implications should be obvious. Nothing can or does happen that has not been planned by God to happen long before they happen. "NOTHING"

 

[Butch5]

Fatalism is a former of Gnosticism.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Fatalism is a former of Gnosticism.

I agree to a certain extent!

However "predestination" is not a form of Gnosticism. They are not the same thing.

The doctrine of Fatalism is to be rejected by Bible believing Christians because it is unscriptural. Predestination, on the other hand, should be embraced by Bible believing Christians.

Fatalism trivializes all human actions as it says that because events in life are preordained and what is going to happen will happen, no matter what - our personal choices do not come into play. Hence the oft repeated but totally wrong headed charge of our being "robots" and "puppets" if predestination is true.

Under the concept of the predestination by God of all things that happen in His creation, events occur given conditions which allow them to occur. This includes causes which put them into effect (including the cause of agents freely choosing in ways which would allow certain events to come about).

God's providential control of all things in His creation include the orchestration of these events and all other events.

Where fatalism denies the significance of free will - sovereign predestination preserves both the significance and the reality of free will.

In a general sense - Gnosticism can be said to be a system of "dualism" - whereas Biblical Christianity is a system of belief that the things which happen in creation are in the singularly sovereign plan of the one true God.

 

[Wgw]

I agree to a certain extent!

However "predestination" is not a form of Gnosticism. They are not the same thing.

The doctrine of Fatalism is to be rejected by Bible believing Christians because it is unscriptural. Predestination, on the other hand, should be embraced by Bible believing Christians.

Fatalism trivializes all human actions as it says that because events in life are preordained and what is going to happen will happen, no matter what - our personal choices do not come into play. Hence the oft repeated but totally wrong headed charge of our being "robots" and "puppets" if predestination is true.

Under the concept of the predestination by God of all things that happen in His creation, events occur given conditions which allow them to occur. This includes causes which put them into effect (including the cause of agents freely choosing in ways which would allow certain events to come about).

God's providential control of all things in His creation include the orchestration of these events and all others.

Where fatalism denies the significance of free will - sovereign predestination preserves both the significance and the reality of free will.

This is basically a Calvinist position which aside from being monergistic, and thus anathema to the Orthodox, also denies that God in His omnipotence could grant free will. by suggesting that God is somehow bound in His divine nature by causal determinism, that God's sovereignity is effected through human logic and in accord with human constraints. This actually relates to Gnosticism in that it reduces God to a demiurge; to use a popular deist phrase, a divine watchmaker.

 

[Marvin Knox]

This is basically a Calvinist position which aside from being monergistic, and thus anathema to the Orthodox, also denies that God in His omnipotence could grant free will. by suggesting that God is somehow bound in His divine nature by causal determinism, that God's sovereignity is effected through human logic and in accord with human constraints. This actually relates to Gnosticism in that it reduces God to a demiurge; to use a popular deist phrase, a divine watchmaker.

Belief in predestination may indeed be anathema to Orthodoxy. If that is true, and I'll have to take your word for it on that, then Orthodoxy is wrong.

Be that as it may be - the use of the term "demiurge" in Gnosticism is of a being who fashioned the world in subordination to a Supreme Being. In addition, in Gnosticism, that being is the originator of evil - and also that being is considered to be the controller of the material world and antagonistic to the purely spiritual world.

Although I am not a Calvinist in the usual sense of the word - "Calvinism", as you chose to say, denies outright and in no uncertain terms all of those concepts. In fact Calvinism, and I in my understanding of scripture as well, hold pretty much the opposite of those views found in Gnosticism.

 

[Wgw]

Belief in predestination may indeed be anathema to Orthodoxy. If that is true, and I'll have to take your word for it on that, then Orthodoxy is wrong.

On what basis?

Be that as it may be - the use of the term "demiurge" in Gnosticism is of a being who fashioned the world in subordination to a Supreme Being. In addition, in Gnosticism, that being is the originator of evil - and also that being is considered to be the controller of the material world and antagonistic to the purely spiritual world.

Although I am not a Calvinist in the usual sense of the word - "Calvinism", as you chose to say, denies outright and in no uncertain terms all of those concepts. In fact Calvinism, and I in my understanding of scripture as well, hold pretty much the opposite of those views found in Gnosticism.

A characteristic of a demiurge is limited power. If you are saying divine omnipotence is inherently bound by causality and determinism, I fail to see how that does not impose an external constraint on God that would itself be a higher order God. Now you could argue for determinism on another level, that it is the divine order.

However, ultimately where this all really melts down is at the level of soteriology. Just as humanity and divinity were hypostatically united in the person of Jesus Christ, we must regard human salvation as the result of an energetic union, a voluntary alignment of human and divine energy. This precludes Calvinist determinist, Pelagian or universalist schemes in which human beings are saved or condemned involuntarily. Only Orthodox, Arminian and to some extent RC soteriology properly reflect the principle of synergetic soteriology, which is inherently incarnational soteriology.

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

This is basically a Calvinist position which aside from being monergistic, and thus anathema to the Orthodox, also denies that God in His omnipotence could grant free will. by suggesting that God is somehow bound in His divine nature by causal determinism, that God's sovereignity is effected through human logic and in accord with human constraints. This actually relates to Gnosticism in that it reduces God to a demiurge; to use a popular deist phrase, a divine watchmaker.

2 timothy 3:16

 

[Wgw]

2 timothy 3:16

And?

 

[Marvin Knox]

On what basis?

On the basis that God is the one who predestines all that happens in His creation. Belief in that fact is an inescapable conclusion of a correct belief concerning the various attributes of God as shown to us in scripture.

God has always known everything that will happen. There was no chance, from before time began, that the things known by God to be going to happen in time would not indeed happen. Since He knew them "prior" to when they happened - they were "pre" destined to happen.

Whenever God refers to predestination in the scriptures - He makes it a point to to tell us that He is the one who predestines.

If your beliefs find predestination to be anathema - than your beliefs are wrong plain and simple.

A characteristic of a demiurge is limited power. If you are saying divine omnipotence is inherently bound by causality and determinism, I fail to see how that does not impose an external constraint on God that would itself be a higher order God.

God is only "limited" by His inherent nature. No attribute of God works or can work independent of all of the other attributes of God. The "constraints", as you say, are strictly internal to God and not external. Indeed there can be no external constraints since He is the only eternally existent originator of all things in His creation.

However, ultimately where this all really melts down is at the level of soteriology. Just as humanity and divinity were hypostatically united in the person of Jesus Christ, we must regard human salvation as the result of an energetic union, a voluntary alignment of human and divine energy. This precludes Calvinist determinist, Pelagian or universalist schemes in which human beings are saved or condemned involuntarily. Only Orthodox, Arminian and to some extent RC soteriology properly reflect the principle of synergetic soteriology, which is inherently incarnational soteriology.

Some of your Orthodox "incarnational" jargon is lost on me.

However, I believe that, although all that happens in God's creation plays out synergistically, as Reformed confessions confirm - what those synergistic occurrences will be were determined long before by the sovereign God working monergistically according to His ultimate will.

 

[Wgw]

On the basis that God is the one who predestines all that happens in His creation. Belief in that fact is an inescapable conclusion of a correct belief concerning the various attributes of God as shown to us in scripture.

God has always known everything that will happen. There was no chance, from before time began, that the things known by God to be going to happen in time would not indeed happen. Since He knew them "prior" to when they happened - they were "pre" destined to happen.

Whenever God refers to predestination in the scriptures - He makes it a point to to tell us that He is the one who predestines.

Omniscience should not be understood as preventing omnipotence. In other words, God has absolute knowlege of all things, however, this does not negate His divine ability to provide free will. If we reject the idea that His rational creatures can freely choose good or evil, then we make God out to be a monster who has willingly imposed suffering arbitrarily amd without cause upon His creation, which is itself an unscriptural perspective. Wrath must be understood as a refusal of divine love, in the sense that God is a consuming fire.

Note also that a case against Orthodox or Arminian soterology cannot be unimpeachably argued from scripture; the question really boils down to one relating to how we understand divine love.

Some of your Orthodox "incarnational" jargon is lost on me.

However, I believe that, although all that happens in God's creation plays out synergistically, as Reformed confessions confirm - what those synergistic occurrences will be were determined long before by the sovereign God working monergistically according to His ultimate will.

You might well read at some point on the theology of the second council of Nicea. At any rate, Calvinism is monergistic, particularly so in the double predestination varieties.

 

[Butch5]

I agree to a certain extent!

However "predestination" is not a form of Gnosticism. They are not the same thing.

The doctrine of Fatalism is to be rejected by Bible believing Christians because it is unscriptural. Predestination, on the other hand, should be embraced by Bible believing Christians.

Fatalism trivializes all human actions as it says that because events in life are preordained and what is going to happen will happen, no matter what - our personal choices do not come into play. Hence the oft repeated but totally wrong headed charge of our being "robots" and "puppets" if predestination is true.

Under the concept of the predestination by God of all things that happen in His creation, events occur given conditions which allow them to occur. This includes causes which put them into effect (including the cause of agents freely choosing in ways which would allow certain events to come about).

God's providential control of all things in His creation include the orchestration of these events and all other events.

Where fatalism denies the significance of free will - sovereign predestination preserves both the significance and the reality of free will.

In a general sense - Gnosticism can be said to be a system of "dualism" - whereas Biblical Christianity is a system of belief that the things which happen in creation are in the singularly sovereign plan of the one true God.

Christians should believe in the Biblical doctrine of Predestination, not the Reformed doctrine of Predestination, which is fatalism. It doesn't matter how one tries to explain it, if God determines it will happen there is no choice.

 

[Marvin Knox]

......God has absolute knowlege of all things, however, this does not negate His divine ability to provide free will. If we reject the idea that His rational creatures can freely choose good or evil, then we make God out to be a monster who has willingly imposed suffering arbitrarily amd without cause upon His creation, which is itself an unscriptural perspective.

I have clearly said that predestination does not negate the free will of the creature. You alone have said that it does.

What I have said is that the free will of the creature establishes or brings to past that which God has predestined to happen.

You might well read at some point on the theology of the second council of Nicea. At any rate, Calvinism is monergistic, particularly so in the double predestination varieties.

I have not claimed to be a Calvinist. You brought that term into the discussion. I am simply one who believes all of the council of God as presented to us in scripture.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Christians should believe in the Biblical doctrine of Predestination, not the Reformed doctrine of Predestination, which is fatalism. It doesn't matter how one tries to explain it, if God determines it will happen there is no choice.

Nonsense.

I have clearly delineated the difference between fatalism and predestination.

The fact that something is predestined by God to happen is only related to the free choice of the creature in that those free choices are the vehicle by which those things predestined by God to happen are brought to past.

Real people make real choices every day. Those people are either rewarded or punished for the choices they make.

Good people and bad people each have and will receive God's just recompense for the choices that they make in their lives.

Ask Jesus and ask Judas how that all works.

I assure you that their choices were all predestined to happen just as they happened.

 

[Butch5]

Nonsense.

I have clearly delineated the difference between fatalism and predestination.

The fact that something is predestined by God to happen is only related to the free choice of the creature in that those free choices are the vehicle by which those things predestined by God to happen are brought to past.

Real people make real choices every day. Those people are either rewarded or punished for the choices they make.

Good people and bad people each have and will receive God's just recompense for the choices that they make in their lives.

Ask Jesus and ask Judas how that all works.

I assure you that their choices were all predestined to happen just as they happened.

You don't see the contradiction there? Their choices were predestined? How do you have a choice if I have determined what you will do? You don't. That's the problem with the Reformed idea of Predestination. Those who hold this position try to take two opposing ideas and try to reconcile them. It can't be done, the two are mutually exclusive. It's like saying the glasss is empty and full, it's just not possible. The Biblical doctrine of Predestination is not about God choosing this person to be save and that person to be lost. That is fatalism.

 

[Butch5]

I have clearly said that predestination does not negate the free will of the creature. You alone have said that it does.

What I have said is that the free will of the creature establishes or brings to past that which God has predestined to happen.

Which is a contradiction.

[/quote]I have not claimed to be a Calvinist. You brought that term into the discussion. I am simply one who believes all of the council of God as presented to us in scripture.[/QUOTE]

One who believes all of the council of God as you believe it. It's only "all of the council of God" if you understand it correctly. If you are misunderstanding it then it isn't "all the council of God". Considering the way you're using it I would say you're not understanding it correctly.

 

[Marvin Knox]

You don't see the contradiction there? Their choices were predestined? How do you have a choice if I have determined what you will do? You don't. That's the problem with the Reformed idea of Predestination. Those who hold this position try to take two opposing ideas and try to reconcile them. It can't be done, the two are mutually exclusive. It's like saying the glasss is empty and full, it's just not possible. The Biblical doctrine of Predestination is not about God choosing this person to be save and that person to be lost. That is fatalism.

NO -

I do not see a contradiction between the creation being the creation and the creator being the creator.

All things created consist in Him. He doesn't consist of things created.

He does not live and move and have His being only in us. We live and move and have our being only in Him.

I understand that you and those of your mindset have been so used to putting your existence on the same level as the creator. But you are wrong. You always have been and you will always be wrong.

You have free will to do whatever the Father is doing. But only to do what the Father is doing.

The Son of God rejoiced in the fact that He could only do what the Father was doing. All true sons of God should do the same.

Most Christians do not rejoice in it. Most are offended by it.

I am not offended. Quite the contrary - I bow the knee and worship because of my relationship to the Sovereign God.

You do what you think is right theologically. You go ahead and call the God that I present to you a monster.

As for me and my house - we will worship the Lord as presented in the scriptures. He is the omnipotent, omniscient, sovereign Lord of the universe, who does all things after the council of His all wise and holy will.

You will only worship a God whom you can understand fully. I worship a God whom I do not understand fully.

Someday I will know Him as I am fully known.

But, until that day, me and my house will still worship the Lord in all of His mysterious ways.

 

[sdowney717]

God declares to the transgressors, that He will do whatever He wishes with them regarding their destiny.
God will do all His good pleasure. He has the right to do with His own what He wills to occur. And men always seem to not like that.

Matt 20
8 “So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’ 9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius.
11 And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner,12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’
13 But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’
16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”

Isaiah 46

8 “Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

Romans 11
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.