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[The Hammer of Witches]

You were predestined to view this thread.


Now to the subject matter: How can anyone say Calvin was incorrect in his statements? God knows everything, he knows the path of your life even before you were born, even before he created the heavens. God also gave us free will, despite God knowing our every thought, decision, and action we have, are, and will make, we still make our own decisions. Calvin argued for this, because it is correct. God knows all, but we also have free will. In the end only God knows who is saved, he knew this before he created the world. We make that choice though, of our own accord. This may seem contradictory, but in reality it is simply a lack of the ability to comprehend it on our part, and the failure of finite words to describe our infinite God.

 

[sdowney717]

Psalm 139:16New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

Absolutely God is in control of our life and very breath.
This should be very comforting, yet people twist this into fear.

Psalm 23:6
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me All the days of my life; And I will dwell in the house of the Lord Forever.

Psalm 37:18
The Lord knows the days of the upright, And their inheritance shall be forever.

As for Judas, here was his destiny. In that God made his days few, points to Judas not having eternal life.
Psalm 109:8
Let his days be few, And let another take his office.

 

[Greg J.]

Now to the subject matter: How can anyone say Calvin was incorrect in his statements?

You have not described the pertinent tenets of Calvinism, so I can see why you would find it hard to understand. I agree with the statements you posted.

 

[sdowney717]

People because they are sinners and separated from a Holy God, well they make sinful choices.
Unless God shows mercy to them they will not know God ever.
And it is up to Christ to show them mercy so that they know Him,
God has given all things into His hands.

Jesus rejoices in God's decision about that.
Luke 10
Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight

.22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

John 3:35
The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.

 

[bling]

You were predestined to view this thread.


Now to the subject matter: How can anyone say Calvin was incorrect in his statements? God knows everything, he knows the path of your life even before you were born, even before he created the heavens. God also gave us free will, despite God knowing our every thought, decision, and action we have, are, and will make, we still make our own decisions. Calvin argued for this, because it is correct. God knows all, but we also have free will. In the end only God knows who is saved, he knew this before he created the world. We make that choice though, of our own accord. This may seem contradictory, but in reality it is simply a lack of the ability to comprehend it on our part, and the failure of finite words to describe our infinite God.

Your logic is good and this does present God as a monster and/or doing all this for some sick entertainment.

Your problem is with the “facts”, some facts are known today the Calvin in his time could not realize. We have shown experimentally over the last 100 years that: “Time is Relative”. In our little finite world that relativity of time is limited by the speed of light, but since information would have to flow faster than the speed of light for God, “time” would be different for God and we sometimes suggest God created time and exists outside of time. Most people agree with this concept and yet like yourself turn around and say: “God knew (before they were created) and yet created them anyway.”

If God is outside of time the “before they were created” would not exist in God’s time frame.

By suggesting there is a “before” and “after” for God is to limit God to time.

God does exist in our time frame and communicates to us for our understanding, but that does not mean we have to “limit” God’s knowledge of our future to it being God’s future also.

You believe God is omnipresent, so would that also include throughout all of time?

Does God exist both in our past and our future right now as we exist in our present time?

Could the God of our future communicate with Himself in the beginning of our time?

Yes, God in the beginning could know all human free will decisions that will ever be made, from His existence way out beyond the future of man. It would all be “history” for the God way out in the future.

Here in lies the reason why God: “could not just make individuals that will accept His help and thus has to make some that will refuse to accept God help.” If “someone” is never to exist, than there is nothing to know about a non-existent person. God could make up the free will choices of a non-existent person the same as you could. As soon as a person will exist God can know everything about that person, so does that mean God is not all knowing, since God knows all there is to know past/ present/ future?

 

[sdowney717]

Your logic is good and this does present God as a monster and/or doing all this for some sick entertainment.

Your problem is with the “facts”, some facts are known today the Calvin in his time could not realize. We have shown experimentally over the last 100 years that: “Time is Relative”. In our little finite world that relativity of time is limited by the speed of light, but since information would have to flow faster than the speed of light for God, “time” would be different for God and we sometimes suggest God created time and exists outside of time. Most people agree with this concept and yet like yourself turn around and say: “God knew (before they were created) and yet created them anyway.”

If God is outside of time the “before they were created” would not exist in God’s time frame.

By suggesting there is a “before” and “after” for God is to limit God to time.

God does exist in our time frame and communicates to us for our understanding, but that does not mean we have to “limit” God’s knowledge of our future to it being God’s future also.

You believe God is omnipresent, so would that also include throughout all of time?

Does God exist both in our past and our future right now as we exist in our present time?

Could the God of our future communicate with Himself in the beginning of our time?

Yes, God in the beginning could know all human free will decisions that will ever be made, from His existence way out beyond the future of man. It would all be “history” for the God way out in the future.

Here in lies the reason why God: “could not just make individuals that will accept His help and thus has to make some that will refuse to accept God help.” If “someone” is never to exist, than there is nothing to know about a non-existent person. God could make up the free will choices of a non-existent person the same as you could. As soon as a person will exist God can know everything about that person, so does that mean God is not all knowing, since God knows all there is to know past/ present/ future?

But Bling your speculating according to your mind about something you can never know according to human reasoning.
Like the blind men feeling an elephant and coming up with all sorts of alternative explanations.
That is why God gave us scripture, so that we can have an understanding that is truth and correct.

 

[The Hammer of Witches]

Your logic is good and this does present God as a monster and/or doing all this for some sick entertainment.

Your problem is with the “facts”, some facts are known today the Calvin in his time could not realize. We have shown experimentally over the last 100 years that: “Time is Relative”. In our little finite world that relativity of time is limited by the speed of light, but since information would have to flow faster than the speed of light for God, “time” would be different for God and we sometimes suggest God created time and exists outside of time. Most people agree with this concept and yet like yourself turn around and say: “God knew (before they were created) and yet created them anyway.”

If God is outside of time the “before they were created” would not exist in God’s time frame.

By suggesting there is a “before” and “after” for God is to limit God to time.

God does exist in our time frame and communicates to us for our understanding, but that does not mean we have to “limit” God’s knowledge of our future to it being God’s future also.

You believe God is omnipresent, so would that also include throughout all of time?

Does God exist both in our past and our future right now as we exist in our present time?

Could the God of our future communicate with Himself in the beginning of our time?

Yes, God in the beginning could know all human free will decisions that will ever be made, from His existence way out beyond the future of man. It would all be “history” for the God way out in the future.

Here in lies the reason why God: “could not just make individuals that will accept His help and thus has to make some that will refuse to accept God help.” If “someone” is never to exist, than there is nothing to know about a non-existent person. God could make up the free will choices of a non-existent person the same as you could. As soon as a person will exist God can know everything about that person, so does that mean God is not all knowing, since God knows all there is to know past/ present/ future?

You have not described the pertinent tenets of Calvinism, so I can see why you would find it hard to understand. I agree with the statements you posted.

Calvinism =/= John Calvin

Calvin believed in free will

 

[The Hammer of Witches]

Your logic is good and this does present God as a monster and/or doing all this for some sick entertainment.

Your problem is with the “facts”, some facts are known today the Calvin in his time could not realize. We have shown experimentally over the last 100 years that: “Time is Relative”. In our little finite world that relativity of time is limited by the speed of light, but since information would have to flow faster than the speed of light for God, “time” would be different for God and we sometimes suggest God created time and exists outside of time. Most people agree with this concept and yet like yourself turn around and say: “God knew (before they were created) and yet created them anyway.”

If God is outside of time the “before they were created” would not exist in God’s time frame.

By suggesting there is a “before” and “after” for God is to limit God to time.

God does exist in our time frame and communicates to us for our understanding, but that does not mean we have to “limit” God’s knowledge of our future to it being God’s future also.

You believe God is omnipresent, so would that also include throughout all of time?

Does God exist both in our past and our future right now as we exist in our present time?

Could the God of our future communicate with Himself in the beginning of our time?

Yes, God in the beginning could know all human free will decisions that will ever be made, from His existence way out beyond the future of man. It would all be “history” for the God way out in the future.

Here in lies the reason why God: “could not just make individuals that will accept His help and thus has to make some that will refuse to accept God help.” If “someone” is never to exist, than there is nothing to know about a non-existent person. God could make up the free will choices of a non-existent person the same as you could. As soon as a person will exist God can know everything about that person, so does that mean God is not all knowing, since God knows all there is to know past/ present/ future?

He exists outside of time, and he created time. He is omnipresent everywhere, every time throughout history. God is also omniscient, he knows everything. God knows what he could create, how he created it, etc. He also knows what would happen if he created someone else, even if he does not create that person he can still see that entire lifetime. He is infinite, it is beyond our grasp to even try to think about such possibilities. God is omnipotent, we cannot truly describe an infinite God with finite words.

 

[bling]

He exists outside of time, and he created time. He is omnipresent everywhere, every time throughout history. God is also omniscient, he knows everything. God knows what he could create, how he created it, etc. He also knows what would happen if he created someone else, even if he does not create that person he can still see that entire lifetime. He is infinite, it is beyond our grasp to even try to think about such possibilities. God is omnipotent, we cannot truly describe an infinite God with finite words.

God can certainly “know” for certain every free will choice a person made and “will” make in man’s future (which if God also exists in that future would not be future for God).

God could know every possible free will choice a never to exist free will agent could make, but if the agent is never to exist then there is nothing to know about the choice it will make since it will never make it. As soon as a free will agent is planned to be made (this could be a trillion years in man’s future) God knows what that free will agent did (God being outside of time).

 

[TheSeabass]

You were predestined to view this thread.
God also gave us free will,....we still make our own decisions...

These two statements are mutually exclusive. If I was predetermined to view this thread, then I have no free will so I cannot make choices/decisions. I did not make a choice/decision to view this thread or not view it, but I was forced here. I am not choosing but only doing what I am forced to do.

 

[The Hammer of Witches]

These two statements are mutually exclusive. If I was predetermined to view this thread, then I have no free will so I cannot make choices/decisions. I did not make a choice/decision to view this thread or not view it, but I was forced here. I am not choosing but only doing what I am forced to do.

You did have the choice, but he knew your choice beforehand.

 

[TheSeabass]

You did have the choice, but he knew your choice beforehand.

There is no choice if I was predetermined to look at this thread.
Free will is having the ability to choose between a least two or more options. If I was forced to come to this by predetermination, then I did not have the choice not to view this thread. I did not even choose for myself to look at this thread but instead was forced to my computer, force to come to this particular website and forced to open and look at this particular thread. I am not CHOOSING but only DOING what I was forced to do. On another forum, a Calvinist there said I would be choosing what God predetermined for me, yet this is not free will choice.

 

[The Hammer of Witches]

There is no choice if I was predetermined to look at this thread.
Free will is having the ability to choose between a least two or more options. If I was forced to come to this by predetermination, then I did not have the choice not to view this thread. I did not even choose for myself to look at this thread but instead was forced to my computer, force to come to this particular website and forced to open and look at this particular thread. I am not CHOOSING but only DOING what I was forced to do. On another forum, a Calvinist there said I would be choosing what God predetermined for me, yet this is not free will choice.

It is similar to the Trinity in that we cannot understand it fully. How is God three separate people but one God? How can be both be free and predetermined? It is just the way it is, we cannot comprehend it. God is all knowing, how can there be something he does not already know?

 

[EmSw]

It is similar to the Trinity in that we cannot understand it fully. How is God three separate people but one God? How can be both be free and predetermined? It is just the way it is, we cannot comprehend it. God is all knowing, how can there be something he does not already know?

God does not predetermine; He determines during man's lifetime, according to man's ways and deeds.

Zechariah 1:6
Yet surely My words and My statutes, which I commanded My servants the prophets, did they not overtake your fathers? “So they returned and said: ‘just as the Lord of hosts determined to do to us, according to our ways and according to our deeds, so He has dealt with us.’

God determines according to the free-will choices man makes.

 

[TheSeabass]

It is similar to the Trinity in that we cannot understand it fully. How is God three separate people but one God? How can be both be free and predetermined? It is just the way it is, we cannot comprehend it. God is all knowing, how can there be something he does not already know?

Either one has free will or he does not.
Either there is a Trinity or there is not one.

It has to be one or the other because both cannot occur at the same time.

 

[The Hammer of Witches]

Either one has free will or he does not.
Either there is a Trinity or there is not one.

It has to be one or the other because both cannot occur at the same time.

They are occurring at the same time, why can't they? God exists outside of time, why would he be limited by his creation?

 

[TheSeabass]

They are occurring at the same time, why can't they? God exists outside of time, why would he be limited by his creation?

Free will cannot both exist and not exist at the same time.
A light cannot both be on and off at the same time.

 

[EmSw]

They are occurring at the same time, why can't they? God exists outside of time, why would he be limited by his creation?

Which has priority?

 

[The Hammer of Witches]

Free will cannot both exist and not exist at the same time.
A light cannot both be on and off at the same time.

But light is always shining somewhere else in the world. The light is our free will, we choose whether it is on or off, but there is always light somewhere else shining because God is everywhere and knows everything, even what we will choose.

 

[TheSeabass]

But light is always shining somewhere else in the world. The light is our free will, we choose whether it is on or off, but there is always light somewhere else shining because God is everywhere and knows everything, even what we will choose.

I am talking about the light and light switch that is in the room I am in. Can the light (light bulb) be both off and on at the same time? No. Can a line be both straight and crooked at the same time? No. Neither can man have both free will and not have free will at the same time. Must be one or the other in all 3 cases.