French Homosexuals Plan “Kiss-In” at Notre Dame Cathedral

[Skaloop]

Yes. I do.

Unless you are stating that bullying is a good thing and can provide evidence that it is:

'Homosexuals should not be mistreated' remains a fact.

It doesn't remain a fact; it's never been a fact.

If you said "Mistreating homosexuals can have negative effects on the victims of such mistreatment" I would agree that that is a fact. But that's not what you are stating. You are stating an opinion.

Also, you have not yet provided evidence that homosexuals should not be mistreated. You've brought up reasons why mistreatment can be negative, but not why it shouldn't be done.

 

[SithDoughnut]

There are both peer-reviewed studies and anecdotal evidence to suggest that bullying is not a good thing. Speaking as one who was badly bullied I can only say the idea that some bullying might be good for a person or even good for particular people is anathema to me.

I'll see if I can find references for you to those Peer-reviewed studies or are they just opinion too?

No, no, no. You're missing the point as well. A fact is an objective truth. The moment you put positive/negative or good/bad into the equation it ceases to be a fact. By definition, it cannot be a fact. Facts are only for maths and logic. Even gravity is not a fact, it is a theory.

I agree that bullying is bad and should be stopped. But this is an opinion, as it relies upon a subjective moral code.

 

[Skaloop]

There are both peer-reviewed studies and anecdotal evidence to suggest that bullying is not a good thing. Speaking as one who was badly bullied I can only say the idea that some bullying might be good for a person or even good for particular people is anathema to me.

I'll see if I can find references for you to those Peer-reviewed studies or are they just opinion too?

No. Peer-reviewed studies showing that bullying can have negative effects is a fact. Saying that therefore one shouldn't bully is an opinion.

 

[Skaloop]

Yes, some people are.

Who? I'm not. I'm the only one who's come close to stating that, but I was only talking about certain specific situations where being bullied might cause a person to strive to overcome it. Which could be seen as a positive, in such a situation (depending on one's viewpoint).

 

[kiwimac]

Here are a few sites of interest while I do more research.

No one benefits from bullying.

There is a growing body of research which indicates that individuals, whether child or adult who are persistently subjected to abusive behaviour are at risk of stress related illness which can sometimes lead to suicide. Individuals who bully others now risk judicial correction and conviction in courts. Furthermore passive bystanders in any bullying situation also risk suffering from anxiety that is brought on by the shame and guilt so often felt at not being able to intervene or defend a victim.

By not challenging bullying behaviour valuable opportunities are lost in shaping society's needs for respect for each person's dignity. To prevent and counter bullying effectively there needs to be an understanding of bullying that is based on scientific evidence. The function of this website is to provide the understanding that may better place you to help yourself or others to prevent or deal with bullying behaviour.

Mona O'Moore, Ph.D., F.T.C.D

Source

Int J Adolesc Med Health. 2008 Apr-Jun;20(2):133-54.
Bullying and suicide. A review. Kim YS, Leventhal B.

Child Study Center, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, CT, USA. young-shin.kim@yale.edu

Being a victim or perpetrator of school bullying, the most common type of school violence, has been frequently associated with a broad spectrum of behavioral, emotional, and social problems. Suicide is third leading cause of mortality in children and adolescent in the United States of America and around the world.

This paper provides a systematic review of the previous 37 studies conducted in children and adolescents from communities, as well as in special populations that examined the association between bullying experiences and suicide, with an emphasis on the strengths and limitations of the study designs. Despite methodological and other differences and limitations, it is increasingly clear that any participation in bullying increases the risk of suicidal ideations and/or behaviors in a broad spectrum of youth.

PMID: 18714552 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Source

Here is a [http://www.ncsl.org/Home/SearchResults/tabid/702/Default.aspx?zoom_query=Bullying]link[/URL] to the National Conference of State Legislatures with reference to School bullying.

Link to a NZ site on bullying in schools.

Link to NZ resources on Bullying.

 

[Letalis]

You seem to be misunderstanding the point. "Bullying is wrong" is an opinion. A fact is that bullying has negative consequences. Statements of morality are subjective.

 

[kiwimac]

Only to those who have never experienced it.

 

[Letalis]

I doubt you'll find many who have not been subject to bullying at some point in their life.

 

[Skaloop]

Here are a few sites of interest while I do more research.



Source



Source

Here is a [http://www.ncsl.org/Home/SearchResults/tabid/702/Default.aspx?zoom_query=Bullying]link[/url] to the National Conference of State Legislatures with reference to School bullying.

Link to a NZ site on bullying in schools.

Link to NZ resources on Bullying.

Yeah. So? That shows that bullying can have negative effects. It doesn't make it a fact that bullying should not be done.

Cancer treatments can have negative effects. Should people stop getting chemotherapy?

 

[Skaloop]

Only to those who have never experienced it.

I've been on both ends. I've been bullied, and I've been a bully. I can certainly attest to the negative consequences of bullying, and I can state with confidence that it shouldn't happen. But that doesn't turn an opinion (people should not bully other people) into a fact.

 

[SithDoughnut]

Only to those who have never experienced it.

I've experienced it. Doesn't make it objective.

In my opinion, bullying is a bad thing. This is honestly what I think, but pay close attention to the word 'opinion'.

 

[Wayte]

Only to those who have never experienced it.

just because you feel strongly about something does not make that belief a fact. It doesn't matter where you learned it from, how you deduced it, any moral inclination can only ever be a subjective opinion.

 

[A2SG]

The premise behind your argument is that: somehow, a significant amount of mother-father figures are going to mess it up, and that, somehow, a significant amount of father-father and mother-mother teams are going to do it right.

Wow. You really had to reach to get to that conclusion!

First, I know very few people who grew up in truly messed up homes. The overwhelming majority of people I know come from well adjusted, loving homes and are fine individuals.

Good for them. And that proves....?

Statistically, people from divorced homes have greater difficulties.

Which proves....?

Furthermore, it is psychologically important for a mother and father to teach proper gender roles to kids or the kids may become uncomfortable around the opposite gender or be confused on how to engage with the opposing gender.

I don't disagree. You may remember, I agreed with that part of your post.

Gender is no illusion.

It is a biological reality.

Again, no disagreement. But, that proves...?

There are many atheist leftists that are all about science until it starts to prove conservative truths, and then suddenly scientific methods of evaluation and intrinsic biological truths are thrown out the window.

Who's talking about scientific methods of evaluation or intrinsic biological truths?

You said that, because it's ideal for children to be raised by both of their biological parents, other parenting combinations shouldn't be allowed. I simply pointed out that, here in the real world, the ideal isn't always possible, and sometimes it isn't even advisable. When considering real children in the real world, we should stay grounded in reality.

Because, frankly, when we're talking about issues like adoption, the ideal has already gone out the window.

-- A2SG, parenting decisions need to be based on the individuals involved, not on statistics.....

 

[No Swansong]

Yes. I do.

Unless you are stating that bullying is a good thing and can provide evidence that it is:

'Homosexuals should not be mistreated' remains a fact.

It is clear from this post that you do not know what a fact is. Others have tried to explain it to you, I don't think I can improve on their expositions.

Your opinion is not fact. Again your opinion may be correct, I certainly agree with you, but it still is not a fact.

 

[Keres]

Fact: Everyone should never drink alcohol - I've got studies that show it has a negative effect, so is it a fact as well?

Nope, because I have studies showing that alcohol, particularly red wine, can be good for you if not taken to excess, and that in fact, recommend you have a glass of wine with dinner on a daily basis.


Can you show evidence that bullying is good?

No?

That's why my statement is a fact.

 

[Keres]

Yeah. So? That shows that bullying can have negative effects. It doesn't make it a fact that bullying should not be done.

Cancer treatments can have negative effects. Should people stop getting chemotherapy?

Cancer treatments also have good effects that lead it to be a net good. Are you saying that bullying is a net good?

 

[Ellinas]

Again, if you do not feel those 4 points are facts, please provide evidence to discount them as such.

I've already pointed out the evidence about the consequences of bullying.

It has been pointed out to you that you are using the word FACT to mean something that defies the true definition of the word. There is no evidence required. Either you explain why you are purposely misusing the word or just plainly accept that you made a mistake.

 

[Keres]

It has been pointed out to you that you are using the word FACT to mean something that defies the true definition of the word.

And it's been pointed out to you that you are mistaken there.

 

[Skaloop]

And it's been pointed out to you that you are mistaken there.

Qualifying a statement with "should" makes it not a fact.

That's a fact.

 

[Ellinas]

And it's been pointed out to you that you are mistaken there.

When and Where