Free Will, Unkown Interference, Mental Illness

[Tristan Johan]

I wrestle with a lot of issues, when trying to sort through Christian doctrine. As I discuss this topic, one thing to keep in mind is that part of why I fell away from faith is the goodness/perfection/love of God became a question for me. I cannot see it, the evidence I look for does not lead me toward belief in a God who is credited as these things.

Free Will is just one of those things promised by the Christian faith that makes me feel very angry. It might not bother me as much if we humans really did have a less tainted brand of free will. Christians keep going on and on about how important it is, so I guess one question is, how important is this Free Will thing, anyway, given how much it's played up in Christian doctrine?

As a starting point, consider those moments where it's suggested that Free Will is taken away from us; I'll go for the simplest, most immediate and problematic example: God Hardened the Pharaoh's Heart. I'm sure we could quibble about the details of this, how much of it was God or the Pharaoh, variations of the translation that are better, but the fact of the matter is that God has permitted this translation to proliferate, so we are left with evidence that God interferes with Free Will, which takes away from it's importance to Him (I actually consider it insulting; if it's so important, there should be a blanket hands-off approach which should be easy for Him, otherwise He/Christians would be more helpfully honest about the importance of Free Will separate from His Will). If the Free Will we are promised only applies to The Choice to accept or reject Him at the core of everything else, that needs to be clarified and understood by Him or us. I'm very unhappy with the way things stand, in this regard.

And this is without even going the next step, and considering Free Will in conjunction with the problem of Mental Illness. From where I stand, it looks to me like certain levels of Mental Illness (to the extent it debilitates a person's perspective of the world, or debilitates their ability to reasonably navigate their lives in this world) are an unacceptable taint against the promise of Free Will. Imagine trying to tell a schizophrenic not to be paranoid about God who watches over us all the time, or imagine God himself trying to communicate that. Why let the poor sod be schizophrenic in the first place, so that they literally cannot stop themselves being paranoid. What about someone with a clinically high level of Depression; who has to fight day in and day out to tell himself, against his own (God given? ruined?) instincts that the world isn't that bad, it's just his perspective that is skewed from everyone elses.

I'm sure we know there are ways of fixing these problems, but it's not that simple because sometimes the very process of going about solving these kinds of problems is not remotely on the order of someone simply reflecting on their character and resolving to change themselves.

I think I'm saying that this issue of Free Will is a problematic promise, because from where I stand, it's been too badly tainted. A poisoned promise. I wonder what the point was in posting this, because it doesn't feel like God is concerned about Free Will. What about all of you, how important is Free Will, and in what ways do we rationalize/justify what looks (to me) like imperfection in our ability to exercise our Free Will with good information, perspective about the world, and with reasonable effort?

I obsess with wanting to see Him living in a body with a brain that is hindered by distraction, depression, anxiety, obsession, schizophrenia; any of it, different combinations of these afflictions, even to debilitating levels. Would He want to be loved by me in such a way? Am I to believe that this is the way He shows love, and how could I possibly feel otherwise than in wanting to show it back to Him in exactly the same way? I don't feel loved, this doesn't feel like love. I want the Free Will that I've been promised.

 

[elman]

I wrestle with a lot of issues, when trying to sort through Christian doctrine. As I discuss this topic, one thing to keep in mind is that part of why I fell away from faith is the goodness/perfection/love of God became a question for me. I cannot see it, the evidence I look for does not lead me toward belief in a God who is credited as these things.

Free Will is just one of those things promised by the Christian faith that makes me feel very angry. It might not bother me as much if we humans really did have a less tainted brand of free will. Christians keep going on and on about how important it is, so I guess one question is, how important is this Free Will thing, anyway, given how much it's played up in Christian doctrine?

As a starting point, consider those moments where it's suggested that Free Will is taken away from us; I'll go for the simplest, most immediate and problematic example: God Hardened the Pharaoh's Heart. I'm sure we could quibble about the details of this, how much of it was God or the Pharaoh, variations of the translation that are better, but the fact of the matter is that God has permitted this translation to proliferate, so we are left with evidence that God interferes with Free Will, which takes away from it's importance to Him (I actually consider it insulting; if it's so important, there should be a blanket hands-off approach which should be easy for Him, otherwise He/Christians would be more helpfully honest about the importance of Free Will separate from His Will). If the Free Will we are promised only applies to The Choice to accept or reject Him at the core of everything else, that needs to be clarified and understood by Him or us. I'm very unhappy with the way things stand, in this regard.

And this is without even going the next step, and considering Free Will in conjunction with the problem of Mental Illness. From where I stand, it looks to me like certain levels of Mental Illness (to the extent it debilitates a person's perspective of the world, or debilitates their ability to reasonably navigate their lives in this world) are an unacceptable taint against the promise of Free Will. Imagine trying to tell a schizophrenic not to be paranoid about God who watches over us all the time, or imagine God himself trying to communicate that. Why let the poor sod be schizophrenic in the first place, so that they literally cannot stop themselves being paranoid. What about someone with a clinically high level of Depression; who has to fight day in and day out to tell himself, against his own (God given? ruined?) instincts that the world isn't that bad, it's just his perspective that is skewed from everyone elses.

I'm sure we know there are ways of fixing these problems, but it's not that simple because sometimes the very process of going about solving these kinds of problems is not remotely on the order of someone simply reflecting on their character and resolving to change themselves.

I think I'm saying that this issue of Free Will is a problematic promise, because from where I stand, it's been too badly tainted. A poisoned promise. I wonder what the point was in posting this, because it doesn't feel like God is concerned about Free Will. What about all of you, how important is Free Will, and in what ways do we rationalize/justify what looks (to me) like imperfection in our ability to exercise our Free Will with good information, perspective about the world, and with reasonable effort?

I obsess with wanting to see Him living in a body with a brain that is hindered by distraction, depression, anxiety, obsession, schizophrenia; any of it, different combinations of these afflictions, even to debilitating levels. Would He want to be loved by me in such a way? Am I to believe that this is the way He shows love, and how could I possibly feel otherwise than in wanting to show it back to Him in exactly the same way? I don't feel loved, this doesn't feel like love. I want the Free Will that I've been promised.

I think love for other is a choice we make. If that is the defintion of free will--the ability to love, then obviously it is vital to serving a God who is love and commands us to love. I don't believe in an inerrant Bible and I don't believe God ever forced anyone to be unloving to others. Therefore I do not believe God forced a Pharoah to maintain slavery. If we are unable to make a choice to love, then we are not responsbile for failing to love; so that addesses any mental problems that might prevent us from being able to love others.

 

[razeontherock]

the goodness/perfection/love of God became a question for me. I cannot see it

Read John. All 4 of his books. None of them are very long. 3:16 of his Gospel might come to mind? It's important to see His Love.

Free Will is just one of those things promised by the Christian faith that makes me feel very angry.

Can you show me where free will is spoken of in the Bible? Don't get me wrong, I do believe in it, depending on what is meant by the term. I just don't see it being "promised." And many C's say it doesn't exist.

As a starting point, consider those moments where it's suggested that Free Will is taken away from us; I'll go for the simplest, most immediate and problematic example: God Hardened the Pharaoh's Heart.

This was Pharaoh's choice, just like each of us can choose to harden our heart against the Lord, or we can turn towards Him and away from sin.

if it's so important, there should be a blanket hands-off approach which should be easy for Him

This is reality. Nothing to get angry about. A common phrase is "the Holy Ghost is a gentleman." He doesn't force Himself on anyone.

If the Free Will we are promised only applies to The Choice to accept or reject Him at the core of everything else, that needs to be clarified and understood by Him or us.

Some say we don't even have that. I disagree, but it's still important to see that repentance is a gift, as is Faith, being drawn to Him, etc.

And this is without even going the next step, and considering Free Will in conjunction with the problem of Mental Illness. From where I stand, it looks to me like certain levels of Mental Illness (to the extent it debilitates a person's perspective of the world, or debilitates their ability to reasonably navigate their lives in this world) are an unacceptable taint against the promise of Free Will.

As you are starting to use the term free will here, I do not believe we have it.
We can do anything we are big and bad enough to do, as long as we are alive. Those are our limits. God gave man dominion.

 

[Lukaris]

Also consider the example of a martyred Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer: Religionless Christianity

 

[golgotha61]

I wrestle with a lot of issues, when trying to sort through Christian doctrine. As I discuss this topic, one thing to keep in mind is that part of why I fell away from faith is the goodness/perfection/love of God became a question for me. I cannot see it, the evidence I look for does not lead me toward belief in a God who is credited as these things.

Free Will is just one of those things promised by the Christian faith that makes me feel very angry. It might not bother me as much if we humans really did have a less tainted brand of free will. Christians keep going on and on about how important it is, so I guess one question is, how important is this Free Will thing, anyway, given how much it's played up in Christian doctrine?

Free will is not necessarily a theology accepted by all Christians. For example: Calvin was the opinion that man's total depravity meant he could not move toward God and so his free will was non existent. He concluded that free will was forfeited at the fall in Eden.

Socinian view: All people are born with Adam's nature prior to the fall and people have the ability to avoid sinning.

Arminian view: Advocates universal grace and freedom of will denying the doctrine of original sin.

This is just a sampling and shows that free will is not universally agreed upon by all Christians.

As a starting point, consider those moments where it's suggested that Free Will is taken away from us; I'll go for the simplest, most immediate and problematic example: God Hardened the Pharaoh's Heart. I'm sure we could quibble about the details of this, how much of it was God or the Pharaoh, variations of the translation that are better, but the fact of the matter is that God has permitted this translation to proliferate, so we are left with evidence that God interferes with Free Will, which takes away from it's importance to Him (I actually consider it insulting; if it's so important, there should be a blanket hands-off approach which should be easy for Him, otherwise He/Christians would be more helpfully honest about the importance of Free Will separate from His Will).

Proper hermeneutics must be employed because the ability to properly interpret so we can successfully apply the word of God is paramount. The idea that God was the controller of Pharaoh's choice and ability to make those choices for him is inaccurate. What happens here is the ability of God to operate in eternity and know how we will react to our environment. With this prescient foreknowledge, God allows situations to take place in our lives, and he knows the outcome. God knew Pharaoh's heart and what his reactions would be to the signs and miracles He worked, but Pharaoh still had control over his reactions, God just knew what they would be.

That blanket hands-off approach is a two edged sword. If it weren't for His hands-on approach, no one would know Him or any thing about Him. It is His hands-on approach that has revealed Himself to us and the sending of Christ to live among us is the most hands-on approach I can think of. If it weren't for that, no one would be saved.

The only thing that God allows is for His word to continue, not the different interpretations, what we do with His Word is our responsibility and this should be obvious by all the different doctrines and church dogmas that exist.

And this is without even going the next step, and considering Free Will in conjunction with the problem of Mental Illness. From where I stand, it looks to me like certain levels of Mental Illness (to the extent it debilitates a person's perspective of the world, or debilitates their ability to reasonably navigate their lives in this world) are an unacceptable taint against the promise of Free Will. Imagine trying to tell a schizophrenic not to be paranoid about God who watches over us all the time, or imagine God himself trying to communicate that. Why let the poor sod be schizophrenic in the first place, so that they literally cannot stop themselves being paranoid. What about someone with a clinically high level of Depression; who has to fight day in and day out to tell himself, against his own (God given? ruined?) instincts that the world isn't that bad, it's just his perspective that is skewed from everyone elses.

There are no promises of "free will" that can be pointed out in the Scriptures. I personally do believe we have the ability to choose but the attributes of God: just, holy, sovereign, and there are more, prove to me that when He judges as to where our eternal abode will be at end of our lives, it will be done justly. Your concerns about the mentally ill and mentally dysfunctional are reasonable. I believe by the consideration of the character of God as revealed in the Bible as a whole, it shows that He will judge righteously.

The Scriptures demonstrate that the child who is not at the point of mature accountability is not held to the same standards as the adult who is mature enough to accept responsibility for their actions. I think this is a demonstration of God taking into account the capacity of a person's ability to understand right and wrong and that person's ability to make accountable choices. God's intention is have as many of us in heaven with Him as possible, not to cast as many of us as He can out of heaven. His intent and purpose of sending Christ was to save, not destroy.

I obsess with wanting to see Him living in a body with a brain that is hindered by distraction, depression, anxiety, obsession, schizophrenia; any of it, different combinations of these afflictions, even to debilitating levels. Would He want to be loved by me in such a way? Am I to believe that this is the way He shows love, and how could I possibly feel otherwise than in wanting to show it back to Him in exactly the same way? I don't feel loved, this doesn't feel like love. I want the Free Will that I've been promised.

Mental illness is just one of the consequences of the fall in Eden and is the result of the original sin, so you will not have this obsession realized. Since mental illness is a result of the original sin and used by the evil one to mar God's most prized creation, mankind, He is well aware of it and I believe Christ's death and resurrection provides the payment for its eternal effects. Also, I don't think any of us have the same mental perfection that Adam had at creation. We all are weakened by the fall, some more than others, and His sacrifice covers all.

Your free will is engaged when you believe in Him and what He did for all those who fall short of a holy life, and we all do, whether we are mentally sound or not. Your free will is engaged when you trust His sacrifice on the cross to cover your sins. His promise is to forgive when we engage our free will to chose to believe His salvation work.

 

[bling]

1. “Free will” we do not have the free will to fly around the room. The only “free will” we need is for fulfilling our earthly objective (everything is driven by the objective). Look at the objectives and make some assumptions from what we see the objectives to be.

If God is this ultimate Lover, than that “Love” would compel even God to make beings that could Love like He Loves (this “Love of God” is totally unselfish [a measure of pure Love] and thus is not for God’s sake at all but is totally for the sake of others).

The reason this “Love” is the most powerful force in all universes is because it compels even God. So to have this Love would make us like God Himself, so why does God not just make us with this Love and place us in heaven?

Man’s objective seems to be to obtain and grow this Godly type Love to fulfill the mission (statement) of Love God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

Our “objective” while here on earth is to just accept God’s gift as it was given as pure charity.

God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.

The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much….) God hates sin, but does allow it so we can more easily accept His Love (in the form of forgiveness the easiest way for us to accept His charity). The problem is not knowing that God exists, since a very small amount of faith is needed to help humans and knowledge of there being a God would only upset those that do not want the Christian God. The problem is our fulfilling our objective.

There are some things that God just cannot do like create a being that was never created and the one important to us is instinctively create us with Godly type Love since that would be robotic type Love. God will also not force his love on us since that would be unloving on God’s part (there has to be reasonable alternatives to make it a choice [the perceived pleasures of sin]). The easiest way for us to get this Love is through accepting it as a pure charitable gift. The problem being humans (due in part to the needed survival instinct) do not like accepting Charity from a Giver that paid a huge price for the gift.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting God’s forgiveness we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”

Once we accept Godly type Love, we can truly Love and have the privilege and honor of Loving God (the forgiver) and others (God’s children) with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.


This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus’ words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4).


Since God is “Love” and part of the definition of Godly type Love is unselfishness God is totally unselfish? If God is totally unselfish, He will do and allow all He can to help those that are just willing to accept His help fulfill their objective (Love). That “all” includes: Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kind, hell, evil, and even sin.

Will we know people do not like to accept charity especially from a giver that paid a huge price? People will try to earn the gift, pay back the gift, be more deserving of the gift than the next person or just say they got the gift without having to accept it. The easiest way to accept the gift is through accepting God’s forgiveness (this is after you have sinned) since forgiveness is charity, grace, mercy Love. AND Jesus has taught us “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”

The problem is God wants us to be like He is (God’s Love is compelling Him to create beings that can Love like He Loves and made these beings for the sake of those that will accept His Love).

If we continue to refuse God’s Love and really do not want to Love unselfishly, where is there for us to go? Heaven is one huge Love feast so we would not be happy there and God wants us to be happy.

2. “Free will and Pharaoh”, situations will either harden or soften a person’s heart and Pharaoh allowed what God presented to him to harden his heart.

3. “Free will and the mentally ill”, it is truly tragic and unfortunate, but willing individuals like myself need lots of opportunities to see, experience, show, receive, give and grow Godly type Love. The mentally ill provide such an opportunity to truly Love unconditionally (since they may have no positive response to your help). People that never have the opportunity to fulfill their earthly objective (like small children) are in a save condition, so they would go to heaven without having Godly type Love, but would have a wonderful child for parent type Love.


When were we “promised” free will?

 

[Harry3142]

Tristan-

Our free will applies to whether we will accept that Christ suffered and died for our sins, and then rose again from the dead, or whether we will reject it:

"The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:8b-13,NIV)

As for our using willpower in order to live a sinless life or one free from struggle, that we are toally incapable of doing. If our willpower had been strong enough so that we could be sinless, then there would have been no need for Christ in the first place. So instead, we place our faith in his willingness to take us through the rough places in our life. All we need to do is accept that he did indeed suffer and die in order to cleanse us of our sins, followed by his arising triumphantly as victor over death itself, the final comsequence of sin.

 

[GrayAngel]

There is no free will. It's not in the Bible, and modern Christianity is wrong in many different ways because it no longer is based completely on what the Bible teaches, even though most denominations claim that they do.

Free will is logically impossible with an all-knowing and all-powerful God. And the Bible specifically teaches against it. Most of the evidence for the opposite is supposedly "implied." In other words, it doesn't exist, but they don't want to have to admit to that.

Compare: http://www.christianforums.com/t7623233/

 

[drich0150]

I wrestle with a lot of issues, when trying to sort through Christian doctrine. As I discuss this topic, one thing to keep in mind is that part of why I fell away from faith is the goodness/perfection/love of God became a question for me. I cannot see it, the evidence I look for does not lead me toward belief in a God who is credited as these things.

Free Will is just one of those things promised by the Christian faith that makes me feel very angry. It might not bother me as much if we humans really did have a less tainted brand of free will. Christians keep going on and on about how important it is, so I guess one question is, how important is this Free Will thing, anyway, given how much it's played up in Christian doctrine?

As a starting point, consider those moments where it's suggested that Free Will is taken away from us; I'll go for the simplest, most immediate and problematic example: God Hardened the Pharaoh's Heart. I'm sure we could quibble about the details of this, how much of it was God or the Pharaoh, variations of the translation that are better, but the fact of the matter is that God has permitted this translation to proliferate, so we are left with evidence that God interferes with Free Will, which takes away from it's importance to Him (I actually consider it insulting; if it's so important, there should be a blanket hands-off approach which should be easy for Him, otherwise He/Christians would be more helpfully honest about the importance of Free Will separate from His Will). If the Free Will we are promised only applies to The Choice to accept or reject Him at the core of everything else, that needs to be clarified and understood by Him or us. I'm very unhappy with the way things stand, in this regard.

And this is without even going the next step, and considering Free Will in conjunction with the problem of Mental Illness. From where I stand, it looks to me like certain levels of Mental Illness (to the extent it debilitates a person's perspective of the world, or debilitates their ability to reasonably navigate their lives in this world) are an unacceptable taint against the promise of Free Will. Imagine trying to tell a schizophrenic not to be paranoid about God who watches over us all the time, or imagine God himself trying to communicate that. Why let the poor sod be schizophrenic in the first place, so that they literally cannot stop themselves being paranoid. What about someone with a clinically high level of Depression; who has to fight day in and day out to tell himself, against his own (God given? ruined?) instincts that the world isn't that bad, it's just his perspective that is skewed from everyone elses.

I'm sure we know there are ways of fixing these problems, but it's not that simple because sometimes the very process of going about solving these kinds of problems is not remotely on the order of someone simply reflecting on their character and resolving to change themselves.

I think I'm saying that this issue of Free Will is a problematic promise, because from where I stand, it's been too badly tainted. A poisoned promise. I wonder what the point was in posting this, because it doesn't feel like God is concerned about Free Will. What about all of you, how important is Free Will, and in what ways do we rationalize/justify what looks (to me) like imperfection in our ability to exercise our Free Will with good information, perspective about the world, and with reasonable effort?

I obsess with wanting to see Him living in a body with a brain that is hindered by distraction, depression, anxiety, obsession, schizophrenia; any of it, different combinations of these afflictions, even to debilitating levels. Would He want to be loved by me in such a way? Am I to believe that this is the way He shows love, and how could I possibly feel otherwise than in wanting to show it back to Him in exactly the same way? I don't feel loved, this doesn't feel like love. I want the Free Will that I've been promised.

I think the problem here is you are confusing freewill with freedom of Choice.

first some definitions:

Sin, is anything not in the expressed will of God.
Evil is a malicious intent to commit a sin
Not all sin is evil but all evil is sin. Never the less the wage of any or all sin is death.

Freewill is the ability to be outside the expressed will of God. In other words freewill is the ability to sin. This is the legacy Adam left us this is what we are born to.. Choice. Or The freedom to choose where we wish to spend eternity.

Freedom of choice is the philosophy that says we are to choose our own destiny or path in life.
Freedom of choice has never been promised to us. Look at all of the scripture that points to the slavery or servant hood that a true Christian is supposed to be under. What slave has complete freedom of choice? At the same time even if a slave is bound to his master he still retains the ability to sin.

 

[hedrick]

Right. Both of the original Reformation traditions deny that our will is fully free.

Probably the more fruitful concept is responsibility. Most Christians, including the ones that deny free will, think that we make real choices and are responsible for them. However most Christians also acknowledge that there are situations where responsibility is diminished. I don't think you can draw a black and white line between where we're responsible and where we aren't. But coercion, mental problems, low intelligence, etc, all act to reduce responsibility.

How does this affect salvation? Not necessarily in a simple way. Again, both Reformation traditions think that salvation is something done by God, and on our own we would be unable even to accept a free offer from God. So he has to work in our hearts even to get us to the point where we can understand what he is doing.

If salvation is something done primarily by God, this allows for situations where someone is incapable of making fully responsible choices. The most common way this comes up is with children dying in infancy. As far as I know, all Christians think they can be saved. In fact most Christians believe that all children dying in infancy are saved, including people in both camps on the free will question. The same thing would apply to people with severely diminished responsibility.